Jbot needs to go

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

no, the point is that there’s zero evidence that GMs were hopping for joy because Botterill didn’t pick a CHL player. Otherwise you would see a much higher number. 

Your logic is so undeniably flawed. 

Alright, refute the evidence that Botterill has a bias against CHL players. Let's play your game. 

Quote

Botterill on CHL players:

"There's nothing to shy away from at all," Botterill insisted. "I just believe, especially with mid- to later-round picks, that if you only control their rights for two years, you have to make a quicker decision on them. You have a more extended period of four years for Europeans or players going to college, and it gives you more opportunity for them to develop."

https://buffalonews.com/2018/06/23/mike-harrington-botterill-doing-things-his-way-bizarre-as-it-may-seem/

[Thorner]

Dregs putting in WORK for the higher-ups. Didn’t want an aggressively worded letter from TPegs, I guess.. 

 

[Thorner]

12 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Your logic is so undeniably flawed. 

Alright, refute the evidence that Botterill has a bias against CHL players. Let's play your game. 

https://buffalonews.com/2018/06/23/mike-harrington-botterill-doing-things-his-way-bizarre-as-it-may-seem/

3 also isn’t an insignificant number. It’s significant. There ARE lots of development leagues out there, I wouldn’t have expected the number to be like 9/18 or something. 

We just have to look at the situation in totality. The sample size is large enough, only 1 CHL player in 3 drafts, to know it’s a thing, especially given the GM’s quotes on the matter. Compare it to the rest of the league’s totals in that time. 

If you look at his tenure in Pittsburgh, they also drafted the exact same way while he was manning it. No CHL players.

[In The Buff]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I am firmly against BPA because I think it’s a sham.  There is no universal list and every team uses different criteria to create their list.  I believe in need based drafting and making sure your organization has guys at all positions moving up through the organization.  I believe this because after the top 2-5 players and incremental difference in player scores means so little that you might as well the player you need. 

You mentioned earlier in this thread that we're now just seeing VO & Johansson from the 2014 draft come into their own as players. I'm looking at the calendar now, that was 6 years ago. How can you draft for needs 6 years out in the future?

You can have general needs by assessing what you have in the pipeline. IE: drafting UPL to be your goalie of the future knowing he'll need years to develop. And to some degree certain positions are always "in need", such as defenseman & centers. But other than that you need to draft BPA. It just takes too long to develop these players to draft for a need now where in 6 years your team needs can & should very well be different by then.

Only reason why we've been desperate for Center help for what feels like forever now is because we traded our 2C away & didnt adequately replace him after the fact. Leaving the need there for multiple years until Cozens or someone else is brought in.

[mjd1001]

Ok, I still don't think Jbot has to go.  He inherited a mess, and he hasn't made it a lot better but I don't think he has made it worse.  The O'Reilly trade I don't put on him....someone (him, O'Reilly, ownership) made the decision he had to go...probably before the bonus was paid, and he took what was probably the best offer.  Was it fair value?  probably not..but I don't think another GM in his place would have gotten a lot better at the time.

With that said, I also don't think he is doing a great job...kinda just sitting on his hands. The moves he has made have been minor, haven't impacted the team in a big time positive way or hurt them long term in a negative way. Skinner deal doesn't look good based on how he is playing this year....but most people wanted him signed and you signed him for what he wanted.

What I hate, and really hate about being a fan of this team now is the lack of any activity.  Was this year a 'waiting game' year, trying to clear the cap? Maybe. But that doesn't mean you can't do SOME things to at least give the team and the fans something to hold on to for the future. Was there a deal for Risto that may not have been perfect but could have been decent? If so then make it.  Is Bogo not going to be here next year? If so, the play Pilut more. Is Dahlin improving and is going to be the franchise D-man...if so then HE should be leading the D-corps in minutes.  I don't think you need to rush players up from the minors....but...just do something..do something that gives us fans at least something to talk about and something to hope for...for the future.

I don't hate the job Jbot has done because there isn't really a lot to hate..or like...I just hate the inactivity.  This isn't the first or second year of a tear-down for this franchise where you have to preach patience to the fanbase...we are rapidly closing in on a decade of it.

Edited February 5, 2020 by mjd1001

[PerreaultForever]

I saw this article on the TSN site and it brings it all back again. I often disagree with Craig Button, but his comments in the video nail it 100 percent. 

https://www.tsn.ca/sam-reinhart-calls-out-buffalo-sabres-gm-botterill-admits-owners-are-frustrated-1.1438078

There are other similar articles out there today.

JBot has to go.  His big thing was "changing the culture" and in that he has clearly failed. His big moves have failed, his trades have mostly failed, his additions have failed. The "process" we are supposed to trust in seems to have no real direction. The team has no identity, no enviable skill aside from Eichel's one man show on any given night. The team is simply no better now than when he got here. Nothing has been fixed, and most importantly of all, the one thing he spoke about clearly, he has not changed the culture.

Reading Risto's post game comments, he was already talking past tense like it was locker clean out day. "I think we took a step forward this year, but obviously it's not enough." This year? Season over? If that isn't end of season talk I don't know what is.

I've reached my limit.  The Buffalo News says I've reached my limit and wont' show me the posted articles any more. Probably a blessing, but that's Buffalo culture. Pay for this crap. I think not. 

45 years of being a Sabres fan and this is it now? This is what I have to endure? I think it likely I'll be dead or senile before this team ever wins a cup.

Watch the video. Tell me he's wrong if you can.

JBot has to go. They all have to go. 

[Brawndo]

29 minutes ago, Thorny said:

3 also isn’t an insignificant number. It’s significant. There ARE lots of development leagues out there, I wouldn’t have expected the number to be like 9/18 or something. 

We just have to look at the situation in totality. The sample size is large enough, only 1 CHL player in 3 drafts, to know it’s a thing, especially given the GM’s quotes on the matter. Compare it to the rest of the league’s totals in that time. 

If you look at his tenure in Pittsburgh, they also drafted the exact same way while he was manning it. No CHL players.

Interestingly 5 of their 15 draft picks since Botterill left are CHL Players. 
 

The highest 21st, lowest 74th with three players taken in the 50’s 

 

Botterill should not be afraid to use any first or second round picks player on a CHL Player. 

[Gatorman0519]

spot on!  Absolute trash franchise... need another house cleaning of the FO

[Marvin]

FYI - Here are the top Centres in the organisation:

Buffalo: Eichel, Lazar, Larsson, plus Girgensons with Johansson and Rodrigues, and, theoretically, Reinhart.

Rochester: Mittlestadt, Asplund, Oglevie, plus Malone

Other: Cozens, Hurley, Davidson, Glotov, Pekar, Ruotsalainen

If I am thinking about line-ups, I make my defence pairs and list my centres top-down in order.  I then fill in the wingers around them.  This is a complete failure on roster-building at centre.

[dudacek]

Nice to see Sam Reinhart speak up and be a leader there, though, right?

After a game where he may have been the team’s best player. When everyone was saying see what we do when the games get tough, he’s put up 24 points in his last 25 games, while the rest of the forwards (except Jackie course) fall apart around him.

Hope we keep this guy around for a long time.

[Indabuff]

I'm beginning to envision an enormous toilet bowl and everyone in the Sabres organization swirling around in it before getting flushed down.  It's kind of gratifying.  

[Doohicksie]

38 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

https://www.tsn.ca/sam-reinhart-calls-out-buffalo-sabres-gm-botterill-admits-owners-are-frustrated-1.1438078

Welp.  That's one way to ask for trade...

Was it last year he called out the goaltending?  He doesn't say much, but every once in a while he drops a bomb.

[pi2000]

37 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Nice to see Sam Reinhart speak up and be a leader there, though, right?

After a game where he may have been the team’s best player. When everyone was saying see what we do when the games get tough, he’s put up 24 points in his last 25 games, while the rest of the forwards (except Jackie course) fall apart around him.

Hope we keep this guy around for a long time.

I don't know.   Either the team is going to rally around his comments, or tune him out.    I'm not sure he's the type of player that teammates look up to for leadership.    If you're going to talk the talk, you need to walk the walk and I'm not sure he walks the walk often enough to demand that type of respect from fellow teammates. 

[Doohicksie]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

If you're going to talk the talk, you need to walk the walk and I'm not sure he walks the walk often enough to demand that type of respect from fellow teammates. 

That's debatable either way.  I wonder what kind of respect he does, in fact, command in the room.  The leaders don't always have letters on their chests.

[Doohicksie]

I miss John Scott.

I miss Lindy.

[Crusader1969]

what if the plan all along was just to get through this season? 

I'll say this about the whole debacle. if Hutton was remotely average since October, they'd be right in the thick of a play-off race.

I believe the Fix isn't that far off.

1) a better goaltending Tandem. is Ullmark with Johansson enough? or do they need to get a stop gap till UPL?

2) get rid of the remainder of the Riff-raff - Bogasian, Sheery and all the other UFA's have to let go, do not resign Erod

3) get a legit center - above everything else, they have to get this done - and another RW.
  I think they have a good start to the bottom 6 with a player pool of Okposo, Cozens, Mitts, Thompson, Asplund, Lazar and Johansson. Find another JAG to compliment, outside the organization. 

Whats the Cap space ? $30Million I believe. no reason they can't over-haul the roster...just need to get through the next 30ish games.

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

@MillerVaive

Need isn’t Sabres need. It’s organizational need.  For example:  If you don’t draft defensemen you don’t have any defensemen.  Hard to develop centers if you don’t draft any.  
 

As I pointed out earlier , other then Jack and Derek Roy we haven’t drafted and developed any scoring centers in the last 2 decades.  TM drafted in the 1st two rounds winger after winger leaving our pipeline devoid of depth at center and D.  Jbot corrected the lack of D but the fact that we don’t have any centers is on TM and DR.  At least Jbot has drafted 2 talented guys who may become NHL centers in Cozens and Mitts to try to correct the hole in the pipeline.  

You can argue we tried to draft and develop centers by drafting Grigorenko, Girgensons and Reinhart but that hasn’t exactly worked out.  

[TrueBlueGED]

31 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

what if the plan all along was just to get through this season? 

I'll say this about the whole debacle. if Hutton was remotely average since October, they'd be right in the thick of a play-off race.

I believe the Fix isn't that far off.

1) a better goaltending Tandem. is Ullmark with Johansson enough? or do they need to get a stop gap till UPL?

2) get rid of the remainder of the Riff-raff - Bogasian, Sheery and all the other UFA's have to let go, do not resign Erod

3) get a legit center - above everything else, they have to get this done - and another RW.
  I think they have a good start to the bottom 6 with a player pool of Okposo, Cozens, Mitts, Thompson, Asplund, Lazar and Johansson. Find another JAG to compliment, outside the organization. 

Whats the Cap space ? $30Million I believe. no reason they can't over-haul the roster...just need to get through the next 30ish games.

 

 

Botterill's forward acquisitions should give no confidence he'll use that cap space effectively.

[Weave]

3 hours ago, CallawaySabres said:

I was thinking for this first time ever today, I may not even be a fan of this team anymore. I don't go to games, can't sell center ice tickets for $25, hate the players, hate the style of play.....There is NOTHING I like about this team and they don't occupy and of my time anymore. My kids tell me to change the channel because they think it's total boredom to watch and they know they will lose. I would have considered myself one of the biggest fans in that arena up until a few years ago and now, nothing..could care less.

 

3 hours ago, spndnchz said:

Getting close myself.  I remember the nights I’d be glued to the TV 30 minutes before the game watching the pre-game show. Switching cable providers because they didn’t carry MSG. Watching the game at least twice, once live and the second time over breakfast. Wearing your Sabres jersey to work was cool and allowed without anyone pointing.

Been that way for me since they started losing on purpose.  Welcome to the apathy club.

[triumph_communes]

I think the outrage is an overreaction to bad goaltending. That was literally the difference between last place St Louis and Stanley Cup St Louis last season. Ullmark has had a bumpy road and Hutton has been absolutely horrid. No team can do anything with the goaltending they’ve had this year. No team. 
 

Now at the end of the season the injuries is topping the league in man games lost against on an already thin forward corp. He got D depth and gave two goaltenders a shot, but even with a bonafide 2C this team was an injury away from problems, and that’s with their roster having to overcome the goaltending. 
 

Yes we need more forwards, but to say Botts failed, etc.  what do you want?  What other goalie was this team getting that’s changing their performance?  Who was predicting Button turning into an absolute turd. It’s also not like we don’t have goalie options in the future-6K is in the system and is as good as goalie prospects can be at this stage. Teams aren’t giving away good goaltenders either. 

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

I think the outrage is an overreaction to bad goaltending. That was literally the difference between last place St Louis and Stanley Cup St Louis last season.

This isn’t actually true though, is it?  Early season St. Louis was actually playing like poop.  It wasn’t just their goaltending.

[Curt]

Do we need a “Jbot has to Go” thread and a “Losing Culture - Jbot has to Go” thread?

Seems pretty redundant.  Maybe merge the two?

[triumph_communes]

Just now, Curt said:

This isn’t actually true though, is it?  Early season St. Louis was actually playing like poop.  It wasn’t just their goaltending.

Not according to Armstrong or the players themselves.  Relevant quotes in the article:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/st-louis-blues-2019-turnaround-playoffs-big-read/

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Nice to see Sam Reinhart speak up and be a leader there, though, right?

After a game where he may have been the team’s best player. When everyone was saying see what we do when the games get tough, he’s put up 24 points in his last 25 games, while the rest of the forwards (except Jackie course) fall apart around him.

Hope we keep this guy around for a long time.

Problem is you don't see that leadership on the ice, on the bench, during the games. Do we ever see our "leaders" rallying the troops after a bad shift or goal? Is there any team unity at all?

I think it's more likely what Doohickie said. Part of a hopeful exit strategy. 

13 minutes ago, Curt said:

Do we need a “Jbot has to Go” thread and a “Losing Culture - Jbot has to Go” thread?

Seems pretty redundant.  Maybe merge the two?

I was just going to call it Losing Culture and added the JBot part after because of how he said he was going to change that before the ROR trade. Could drop the sub heading if it's truly an issue for you. 

[Curt]

21 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Not according to Armstrong or the players themselves.  Relevant quotes in the article:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/st-louis-blues-2019-turnaround-playoffs-big-read/

-“Armstrong says. “This was a case of a team coming together that was figuring it out and finding ways to lose games that they should have won. We weren’t finding ways to win games. In December we started to play winning hockey but we didn’t get the results [and] had a few bad beats. We went on a road trip out to Western Canada and won two out of three playing really good.””

So they were finding ways to lose games early on.

 

-“And with Berube’s promotion from an assistant’s role, some of the underlying numbers — differentials in possession and chances, and shooting percentage among others — had started to trend in the right direction, even though the team had the worst record in the league on January 2.”

After Berube was promoted some underlying numbers started to trend in the right direction, implying that they were not so good beforehand.

 

-“ “His arrival coincided with us playing well,” Armstrong says. “That’s the way it really timed out. He had a fabulous run, no doubt, but timing had a lot to do with it.” “

Armstrong is saying that Binnington joined the team when they started playing well and benefitted from the teams improved play.

 

In games 1-41 they scored 1 or 0 goals 13 times.

In games 42-82 they scored 4 or more goals 15 times.

It wasn’t all Binnington.  They played poorly early in the 2018-19 season.