Dead Team Walking - Are the Sabres Even Fixable?

[Thorner]

^Perfectly stated. 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Radar said:

Am I the only one that thinks just getting a 2c is not the magical answer for this team? We have a few top end talented players and almost a roster full of third to fourth line players. One reason why trades to improve the team are so difficult. You don't get something for nothing. Frankly who do we really have of value to another team we can afford to trade?

I think they need to add 2 top-6 forwards.  One of which being a solid 2C.

[GASabresIUFAN]

https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/opinion/so-what-now

Right on brother!  

Edited January 11, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Getting a decent player like Henrique who is under-performing his contract with 4 years left on a team trying to rebuild usually comes pretty cheaply as a noted below.  I formed my offers by looking at deals for similar players in recent deadlines.

So here is a deal.  Sheary/Vesey and Larsson/Girgensons/Erod (Nashville gets to choose one from each group), KO, Borgen & a 2nd for Turris and Bonino.

We get a 2nd and 3rd line center who can wins draws and add offense.  We taken on 10.1 mill in cap this year and next with Turris 3 more years at 6 mill.  Nash gets a cheaper version of Turris in Larsson, a servicable wingers in KO plus Vesey or Sheary.  They taken on about 9.5 in cap this season, but only 6 mill for KO next year, unless they choose to re-sign FAs Sheary or Vesey or Larsson.  They also have Craig Smith and Granlund who can play center.  

This deal is really a cap dump for Nashville and allows them to get younger and our from under two veteran contracts.  

 

 

First, do you really think you can build a winning team grabbing up even more guys who are underperforming?  Sure, we could do that, but we'd just get a big pile of Veseys.

Second, your trade. Sure, that'd be good, but that would end Poile's career (he's Nashville GM right? I'm rarely up on other teams internals but I think it's him). Cap dump yes (are they looking to cap dump? I doubt it, I think they still think they have a shot) for a bunch of marginal UFAs? Great trade for the Sabres getting Bonino, suicide for Nashville. and personally, I would not give up any draft picks. 

If Larsson was a cheaper version of Turris maybe we'd be better than we are. 

Fans always want to trade their garbage for quality and it just isn't going to happen. You can make positional swaps (like a D man for a winger) or questionable prospects like he did with Jokiharju and Nylander. Both teams rolled the dice a little on that one and we came out alright but that's rare. You can take on cap to help a team and get something. Eg. Boston has tried to unload Backes all year and would probably give a prospect or pick away to do it but that's a deal for a team that has given up..........

There is no 2C coming. There is no blockbuster coming. There is no turnaround. It's just another year of the same.

[Radar]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Consider @Taro T‘s point about how much better we look when Mojo is on his game, playing at or near a 2C level. If we had that bonafide 2C talent all the time, or even someone playing at a level even a little higher than Mojo’s best, I think we look pretty good. Especially considering the likelihood of Mojo more often achieving a high level of play probably increases, if he’s coming at it from a wing position. 

The “who’s available?” argument doesn’t hold a lot of water, to me. There’s always guys, plenty of which we don’t even know are available until after the fact. We could (and should) have added JT Miller this last summer, just to name one. 

Sounds good. Now who do we have to trade that fetches what we need? We're pretty thin on expendable talent.

[GASabresIUFAN]

59 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

First, do you really think you can build a winning team grabbing up even more guys who are underperforming?  Sure, we could do that, but we'd just get a big pile of Veseys.

Second, your trade. Sure, that'd be good, but that would end Poile's career (he's Nashville GM right? I'm rarely up on other teams internals but I think it's him). Cap dump yes (are they looking to cap dump? I doubt it, I think they still think they have a shot) for a bunch of marginal UFAs? Great trade for the Sabres getting Bonino, suicide for Nashville. and personally, I would not give up any draft picks. 

If Larsson was a cheaper version of Turris maybe we'd be better than we are. 

Fans always want to trade their garbage for quality and it just isn't going to happen. You can make positional swaps (like a D man for a winger) or questionable prospects like he did with Jokiharju and Nylander. Both teams rolled the dice a little on that one and we came out alright but that's rare. You can take on cap to help a team and get something. Eg. Boston has tried to unload Backes all year and would probably give a prospect or pick away to do it but that's a deal for a team that has given up..........

There is no 2C coming. There is no blockbuster coming. There is no turnaround. It's just another year of the same.

I never said Bonino is underperforming.  I said Henrique was underperforming his contract level, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t worthwhile acquisition for a team that has ZERO decent centers beyond Jack.  

I talked about swapping KO for Turris in a swap of bad contracts, using our excess winger to get one of Nashville’s excess centers. If we have to have a bad contract we might as well have one in a position of need.

The sad truth is as I said above is that we have ZERO decent to good NHL ready centers behind Jack.  Larsson is a hard worker with hands of stone.  Erod is simply bad.  MoJo is miscast as a Center and would be more productive on the wing.

Our penalty kill and PP are crying out for guys who can win a draw to establish puck possession. 

Edited January 11, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[SABRES 0311]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I never said Bonino is underperforming.  I said Henrique was underperforming his contract level, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t worthwhile acquisition for a team that has ZERO decent centers beyond Jack.  

I talked about swapping KO for Turris in a swap of bad contracts, using our excess winger to get one of Nashville’s excess centers. If we have to have a bad contract we might as well have one in a position of need.

The sad truth is as I said above is that we have ZERO decent to good NHL ready centers behind Jack.  Larsson is a hard worker with hands of stone.  Erod is simply bad.  MoJo is miscast as a Center and would be more productive on the wing.

Our penalty kill and PP are crying out for guys who can win a draw to establish puck possession. 

I think Larsson is underrated regarding his stick handling. He’s not going to pull a Datsyuk but I’ve seen some decent stop and go or cut back moves to keep possession.  

[CallawaySabres]

Season is dead , it's over. Sell at deadline and hope their top 5 pick is 1, 2 or 3 at the lotto drawing.

[bunomatic]

1 hour ago, CallawaySabres said:

Season is dead , it's over. Sell at deadline and hope their top 5 pick is 1, 2 or 3 at the lotto drawing.

I believe this is the case. Jbottom went into the season with this offseason set as the time to do the heavy lifting , clear some cap and aquire the guys we need to get into the playoffs. How he accomplishes this I have no idea. I really have little to no faith in the man at this point either.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I never said Bonino is underperforming.  I said Henrique was underperforming his contract level, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t worthwhile acquisition for a team that has ZERO decent centers beyond Jack.  

I talked about swapping KO for Turris in a swap of bad contracts, using our excess winger to get one of Nashville’s excess centers. If we have to have a bad contract we might as well have one in a position of need.

The sad truth is as I said above is that we have ZERO decent to good NHL ready centers behind Jack.  Larsson is a hard worker with hands of stone.  Erod is simply bad.  MoJo is miscast as a Center and would be more productive on the wing.

Our penalty kill and PP are crying out for guys who can win a draw to establish puck possession. 

You misunderstood me. The underperforming comment was about Henrique. I doubt very much any underperforming player will be better here. (let's see if Frolik proves me wrong cause Vesey hasn't.)  No way is anybody interested in KO though given his head injury history and his underperforming. 

Bonino is a good player, I agree, which is why they wouldn't give him up to us for the things you proposed.

Totally agree on Johanson being miscast as a center. I get what Krueger was thinking. He is speedy and a playmaker first so pairing him with Skinner to give us a second line was a reasonable idea given the players he had to work with but it's not his best position. Johanson was a spectacular third line winger in Boston and that's really what he should be. 

We're not disagreeing as much as you think we are. I simply think you (and others) overvalue the marketability of the players on our roster. Aside from stars most in demand players are players who do one thing really well and thus can fill a role a team needs. Most of our guys are just ok at a few things but don't really stand out at anything, and most of them are also quite soft and thus also not in demand by playoff bound clubs. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

On 1/11/2020 at 1:03 AM, PerreaultForever said:

You misunderstood me. The underperforming comment was about Henrique. I doubt very much any underperforming player will be better here. (let's see if Frolik proves me wrong cause Vesey hasn't.)  No way is anybody interested in KO though given his head injury history and his underperforming. 

Bonino is a good player, I agree, which is why they wouldn't give him up to us for the things you proposed.

Totally agree on Johanson being miscast as a center. I get what Krueger was thinking. He is speedy and a playmaker first so pairing him with Skinner to give us a second line was a reasonable idea given the players he had to work with but it's not his best position. Johanson was a spectacular third line winger in Boston and that's really what he should be. 

We're not disagreeing as much as you think we are. I simply think you (and others) overvalue the marketability of the players on our roster. Aside from stars most in demand players are players who do one thing really well and thus can fill a role a team needs. Most of our guys are just ok at a few things but don't really stand out at anything, and most of them are also quite soft and thus also not in demand by playoff bound clubs. 

I didn't say Henrique was underperforming.  I said he was underperforming his contract level.  Those are two very different things.  I think he is the player we see right now and that he is a huge upgrade on what we have right now.  What's better paying Erod 2 mill for nothing or paying Henrique 5.825, but getting $5 mill  worth of performance?  Give me Henrique.

Listen this team is DOA from a playoff perspective, but Jbot can still salvage an year over year improvement and build some good will into next season.  Hutton needs to be waived tomorrow and Johansson recalled.  We need better play in goal and that would be at least a small shot in the arm. 

He also needs to make a bigger move then Frolik to create some positive energy.  That means finding help at center.  I know this is a broken record and he knows this as well.  Obviously it takes two to tango and no one like Bonino or Henrique may be available right now.  However it's his job to find someone.  Other then Joker, Dahlin, Jack, VO and Cozens, I think Jbot should listen to hockey deal type offers for everyone else.  Between now and the deadline, I'd like to see 3-5 moves to change this team.  Be both seller and buyer.  If I were him I'd even get on TV and say we are open for business.  

I remember the season before the 1st lock-out.  The Sabres sucked for the 1st half and went 16-20-5.  However they finished 21-14-2 and set the tone for the post lockout teams.  

It's not like we have no talent on this team.  Jack, Montour, Dahlin, Joker, Reinhart, Skinner, VO, Risto and MoJo are good hockey players.  What we lack is a spine (figuratively and literally).  Build a spine and this team might just end up with a good second half.  Some key pieces of that team were acquired at the deadline.  Briere in 2003 and Grier in 2004.

Edited January 12, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[PerreaultForever]

I don't see the difference between "underperforming" and "underperforming his contract level."  You are paid to produce accordingly. If, for example, Skinner scores less than 30 goals, he's had a bad season and is overpaid. If ERod scored 15 (which he clearly won't) we'd say he earned his money. The expectation is higher the more you get paid.

Maybe we have some talent, although it's arguable how good some of it actually is, but for whatever reason(s) these pieces don't fit and the  team doesn't ever become a team. We've tried different coaches, different philosophies, different pieces, but the same things crop up every year. We lack grit, we lack effort, we don't play as a team, we take shifts (or games) off. These guys are simply too fragile in all ways. We get on a little roll and they briefly seem to have energy and react like a team that cares, but the slightest adversity and they fall apart and/or quit. When a culture of losing is that deeply imbedded, imo there is no way to get rid of it aside from changing everything.

And Krueger is handcuffed. The only way to make them better is to reward good play and effort and bench bad play and lack of effort, but this team is so weak and thin all he can do is bench bottom feeders like ERod or Bogo. The top guys get a free ride. Take for example the 4th Canuck goal in yesterday's game. Eichel is working his butt off against 2 Canucks along the boards and tried to chip the puck up to Reinhart. Reinhart is just standing there on the wall doing absolutely nothing. The puck doesn't quite make it up to him as Eichel's stick I think got deflected slightly. Rather then move his feet and work back for it Sam just takes a feeble reach, the Canucks exert for it pass it towards the front and it's a goal. Reinhart does that on Boston and he'd sit the rest of the period if not the game. Here he's right back out there cause we've got nobody else. It's simply an impossible situation for any coach to deal with that. 

But if there was a Briere out there I'd certainly grab him, but if you remember nobody expected what we got from him. Was supposed to be too small in his day. Was waived once or twice before we ended up getting him. Guy was a major surprise. Good on them for getting him, but I think they were more lucky than anything else. Having said that, ya, if they are out there, it is JBot's job to find them instead of just Frolick-ing around.

[Sabre1974]

Hopefully Cozens will be ready next year although I don't want him rushed. Would like to see ruustolainen get a chance too. Reckon pekar will be in Rochester. Do we get lucky in the draft?  Hopefully thompson and mitts are ready and pushing for a spot.

Time for us to move on from Larsson and girgensons which should have happened this season. 

 

[Kruppstahl]

This is kind of a fun statistic.

Since January 1, 2019, up to and including the Vancouver game, the Sabres are 4th worst in the league.

73 points.

31-45-11 in that time period.

Keep Dahlin and Jack and move the rest please.

Oh, and fire Botterill before we start doing the moves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sabremike]

25 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

This is kind of a fun statistic.

Since January 1, 2019, up to and including the Vancouver game, the Sabres are 4th worst in the league.

73 points.

31-45-11 in that time period.

Keep Dahlin and Jack and move the rest please.

Oh, and fire Botterill before we start doing the moves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am absolutely stunned that we are that "good" over that period. Would've thought we'd easily be dead last.

[GoPre]

Buffalo.... land of the the “bottom sixers”.... 

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, Kruppstahl said:

This is kind of a fun statistic.

Since January 1, 2019, up to and including the Vancouver game, the Sabres are 4th worst in the league.

73 points.

31-45-11 in that time period.

Keep Dahlin and Jack and move the rest please.

Oh, and fire Botterill before we start doing the moves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The bad news is...LA, Ottawa, Anaheim and Detroit are a whole different level of bad. The Sabres would have to do their best work to get down to the bottom 4 in the standings. Those teams are just awful.  NJ is below the Sabres, but ever so often they show signs of actually moving the right direction.

Either way, even if the Sabres sold off some assets, its unlikely they will be picking in the top 4 in the draft this year (its sad that that is one of the few things we can root for...as it doesn't really seem to help this team anyway).

[Curt]

36 minutes ago, sabremike said:

I am absolutely stunned that we are that "good" over that period. Would've thought we'd easily be dead last.

Since the beginning of last season: Detroit, Ottawa, New Jersey, Los Angeles, and Anaheim have been worse than Buffalo.

[Stoner]

2 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

This is kind of a fun statistic.

Since January 1, 2019, up to and including the Vancouver game, the Sabres are 4th worst in the league.

73 points.

31-45-11 in that time period.

Keep Dahlin and Jack and move the rest please.

Oh, and fire Botterill before we start doing the moves.

The last line is interesting. If Terry (and Kim, if he asks her to come over to the GM side of the arena to talk about it) has decided to pull the trigger, he could and should do it now. Otherwise the new GM/president is that much more behind the 8-ball after the season, not to mention the further damage Botterill could do. As someone mentioned yesterday (forget who), the worst thing would be having serious questions about Botterill but letting him have one more kick at the can during a critical summer coming up.

[Sabre1974]

39 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

The last line is interesting. If Terry (and Kim, if he asks her to come over to the GM side of the arena to talk about it) has decided to pull the trigger, he could and should do it now. Otherwise the new GM/president is that much more behind the 8-ball after the season, not to mention the further damage Botterill could do. As someone mentioned yesterday (forget who), the worst thing would be having serious questions about Botterill but letting him have one more kick at the can during a critical summer coming up.

 

For the first time I am questioning Botts ability to make this better. I wish now we had made a move for ken Holland last summer when he left Detroit. 

[mjd1001]

On 1/12/2020 at 10:23 AM, Sabre1974 said:

For the first time I am questioning Botts ability to make this better. I wish now we had made a move for ken Holland last summer when he left Detroit. 

I still don't have doubts about him..not yet at least.  To me it looks like the plan all along was to get to the point of having a lot of cap room and rebuild from there. That time was always going to be next year.  The HOPE inside the organization was the team would be better than it is with the existing talent...but the plan all along was just get to next year.

The only way the lack of moves make sense is that he is waiting till next year.  Not only will they have more flexibility to make things fit, but with the Sabres having more cap room and other teams not having it...they will also be in a position to dictate terms more beneficial to them in any move.

[pi2000]

56 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I still don't have doubts about him..not yet at least.  To me it looks like the plan all along was to get to the point of having a lot of cap room and rebuild from there. That time was always going to be next year.  The HOPE inside the organization was the team would be better than it is with the existing talent...but the plan all along was just get to next year.

The only way the lack of moves make sense is that he is waiting till next year.  Not only will they have more flexibility to make things fit, but with the Sabres having more cap room and other teams not having it...they will also be in a position to dictate terms more beneficial to them in any move.

IMO he's waiting for the deadline to try and maximize return.... also probably hasn't decided yet if they're going to be buyers or sellers.   At this point they *should* be sellers, but we don't know what JBOT's view is.    They have some winnable games coming up, if they shockingly go on a tear, they're right there.   Look what St. Louis did last season after Jan 1.   Unlikely they repeat something similar missing their top two wingers, but they go on an 8-1-1 stretch and suddenly they're within striking distance.   

[WildCard]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

IMO he's waiting for the deadline to try and maximize return.... also probably hasn't decided yet if they're going to be buyers or sellers.   At this point they *should* be sellers, but we don't know what JBOT's view is.    They have some winnable games coming up, if they shockingly go on a tear, they're right there.   Look what St. Louis did last season after Jan 1.   Unlikely they repeat something similar missing their top two wingers, but they go on an 8-1-1 stretch and suddenly they're within striking distance.   

*Looks at O'Regan*

Yeah that definitely worked when dealing Kane 

[GASabresIUFAN]

49 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

IMO he's waiting for the deadline to try and maximize return.... also probably hasn't decided yet if they're going to be buyers or sellers.   At this point they *should* be sellers, but we don't know what JBOT's view is.    They have some winnable games coming up, if they shockingly go on a tear, they're right there.   Look what St. Louis did last season after Jan 1.   Unlikely they repeat something similar missing their top two wingers, but they go on an 8-1-1 stretch and suddenly they're within striking distance.   

He may be waiting because there isn't anyone available to acquire.

Jbot has added to this team

Good: Skinner, VO, Dahlin, Montour and Jokiharju.  I'd probably put Pilut here as well

The Average: Lazar, MoJo, and Miller

The Disappointing: Hutton, Sobotka, Vesey, Mitts, Thompson and Sheary however the jury is still out on Thompson and Mitts long-term

The to soon to tell or meaningless depth: Frolik and Wilson.

Bogo, KO, Erod, Girgensons, Risto, Jack, Sam, Larsson and Ullmark were all here when he got here.

Biggest failings so far is not replacing ROR with a quality 2C immediately and not getting something better then Hutton in goal.

I don't have an issue with the acquisitions of Sheary or Vesey.  They are proven NHL wings, but Jbot never game them the support they needed to succeed.  Really it all comes down to that.

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

IMO he's waiting for the deadline to try and maximize return.... also probably hasn't decided yet if they're going to be buyers or sellers.   At this point they *should* be sellers, but we don't know what JBOT's view is.    They have some winnable games coming up, if they shockingly go on a tear, they're right there.   Look what St. Louis did last season after Jan 1.   Unlikely they repeat something similar missing their top two wingers, but they go on an 8-1-1 stretch and suddenly they're within striking distance.   

Speaking of St. Louis, I looked at their roster and the standings. Interestingly enough, ROR has 8g/40pts and is 2nd in scoring on the team. Reinhart is also 2nd on our team and has 15g/36pts, not much of a difference and yes I know ROR brings more tangibles to the game. I went a little bit farther and saw that our top 7 scorers have 217pts among them while St. Louis' top 7 has 246pts, a difference of 29pts or and average of only 4pts/ player. Yet they are 18pts ahead of us in the standings. So where and how much improvement do we need. It would seem that depth and goaltending are places to look with maybe a look at the D (do we have the right combo of stay @ home/offensive). 

It just seems very little to ask of our players to add 3-4pts each and become a better team, especially from our lower ranks.