The GLO Line: Girgs, Larsson, Okposo

[Doohicksie]

28 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Hockey is the only sport where players are drafted in the first round with the expectation they turn into good 3rd line players with little to no offense. Could you imagine a team in the NFL drafting someone in the first round expecting them to be a good 3rd down RB that is good at pass protecting?

Baseball is similar.  Those kids are drafted very young based on potential.  There's about as much scatter as there is in the NHL.

[dudacek]

This is the player Larsson was projected to be when we traded for him.

I know I preach patience on development, but it’s been six freaking years!

There is no way this is our fourth line and people need to stop referring to it as such. 4th line centres don’t get 19:57 in ice time like Larry got against Nashville. It’s a classic 3rd/checking line with three players who have blossomed into effective NHLers under Ralph.

People talk about whether we should re-sign Larry and Z, without considering whether they would want us. Two months ago, I would have said both were out of Buffalo the second the season ended, whether the Sabres wanted them or not; how could they have wanted to be here after all the crap they’ve endured?

Ralph certainly may have changed things. It will be interesting to see if they can keep this up and how that affects what happens at the deadline and/or July 1.

[Broken Ankles]

2 hours ago, woods-racer said:

Botterill will keep both as long as the term and price is right.

They are playing 3rd and possibly 2nd  line minutes at a 4th line cost.

They are out at the end of games with 1 goal leads and winning.

I just don't think they are *that easy* to replace.

GLO AAV = $9.1M.   This is way above a fourth line cost.  I like them all, but if you have a $6M 4th (3rd?) line player, you need to make concessions elsewhere.   You cannot have both come back on $2.25-2.5M AAV,  or we an $11M 4th line for 2021 & 2022.   If KO goes to LTIR, then it's a different story.   

[Weave]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This is the player Larsson was projected to be when we traded for him.

I know I preach patience on development, but it’s been six freaking years!

There is no way this is our fourth line and people need to stop referring to it as such. 4th line centres don’t get 19:57 in ice time like Larry got against Nashville. It’s a classic 3rd/checking line with three players who have blossomed into effective NHLers under Ralph.

People talk about whether we should re-sign Larry and Z, without considering whether they would want us. Two months ago, I would have said both were out of Buffalo the second the season ended, whether the Sabres wanted them or not; how could they have wanted to be here after all the crap they’ve endured?

Ralph certainly may have changed things. It will be interesting to see if they can keep this up and how that affects what happens at the deadline and/or July 1.

May not be the product of development at all.  I suspect it is as simple as, we are seeing the effort that gets put on the ice when there is purpose to the play.

Larry is finally playing for something other than a paycheck, and it shows. 

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

GLO AAV = $9.1M.   This is way above a fourth line cost.  I like them all, but if you have a $6M 4th (3rd?) line player, you need to make concessions elsewhere.   You cannot have both come back on $2.25-2.5M AAV,  or we an $11M 4th line for 2021 & 2022.   If KO goes to LTIR, then it's a different story.   

This is the key: you can’t give 3rd line money to 4th line players; but if you can get 3rd line players at 4th line money, you’re golden.

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, Weave said:

May not be the product of development at all.  I suspect it is as simple as, we are seeing the effort that gets put on the ice when there is purpose to the play.

Larry is finally playing for something other than a paycheck, and it shows. 

Maybe development is simply putting players in positions where they can succeed and grow. And that’s far more complex than what league they are in and what line they are on.

For example, if Mitts gets sent down, what does that mean for the development his best buddy and roommate Rasmus?

Edited December 13, 2019 by dudacek

[matter2003]

58 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Baseball is similar.  Those kids are drafted very young based on potential.  There's about as much scatter as there is in the NHL.

Yeah I guess I didn't think about that...plus they have something like 50 rounds in baseball...

[woods-racer]

45 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

GLO AAV = $9.1M.   This is way above a fourth line cost.  I like them all, but if you have a $6M 4th (3rd?) line player, you need to make concessions elsewhere.   You cannot have both come back on $2.25-2.5M AAV,  or we an $11M 4th line for 2021 & 2022.   If KO goes to LTIR, then it's a different story.   

You threw Kyle's numbers into the Larrson- Girgs talk. 

Kyle is an albatross. The Sabres can never skimp enough on veteran player contracts to make up for that bad signing. We would be icing an AHL team on that rational.

I hope the Sabres don't cheap out and not sign anyone good because they might have to pay the going rate for them.  I also hope  that the Sabres aren't looking to sign only players that come on the cheap because we have Kyle.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by woods-racer

[Broken Ankles]

11 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

You threw Kyle's numbers into the Larrson- Girgs talk. 

Kyle is an albatross. The Sabres can never skimp enough on veteran player contracts to make up for that bad signing. We would icing an AHL team.

I hope the Sabres don't cheap out and not sign anyone good because they might have to pay the going rate for them.  I also hope  that the Sabres aren't looking to sign only players that come on the cheap because we have Kyle.

 

   But Kyle (and his Albatross contract) is relevant to the conversation.   The Sabres priority in the off-season is another top 6 player, preferably a Center.   Whether a UFA or Trade, this position will demand a high AAV.   Resigning Sam, and managing for futures.   

   There was comments above about these are the type of players that Boston has.  And while that may be true, Boston also sheds players like this when offered better deals.    They have players like Wagner or Kurali.  And players like Schaller, or Moore or Nash.  But their contracts are for league mins, or $1.5M at the high end, and when they are offered deals from other teams in the $3.5+, they move on.  We live in a salary cap era where decision are made based on priorities.  For me I'm much rather substitute a Lazar and TBD on my fourth line to pay a higher end Center $7.5-8.5M and play top 6 minutes.  

Edited December 13, 2019 by Broken Ankles

[pi2000]

I appreciate the fact they're playing well, that said we're jumping the gun here talking about contracts.

Let's see if they can sustain this throughout the remainder of the season.    They're all playing with a compete level normally reserved for the playoffs.

Don't get me wrong, I think what they're doing is great, I just want to see them sustain it before I start throwing money at them.    

[tom webster]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Hockey is the only sport where players are drafted in the first round with the expectation they turn into good 3rd line players with little to no offense. Could you imagine a team in the NFL drafting someone in the first round expecting them to be a good 3rd down RB that is good at pass protecting?

And I don’t understand how people need to treat sports teams as the same industry. All four major sports have different corporate structures, different management structures and different roster structures. What does being a first round pick in hockey have anything to do with being  a first round pick in football?

[SDS]

45 minutes ago, tom webster said:

And I don’t understand how people need to treat sports teams as the same industry. All four major sports have different corporate structures, different management structures and different roster structures. What does being a first round pick in hockey have anything to do with being  a first round pick in football?

Especially given how many different positions there are in football.

[In The Buff]

47 minutes ago, tom webster said:

And I don’t understand how people need to treat sports teams as the same industry. All four major sports have different corporate structures, different management structures and different roster structures. What does being a first round pick in hockey have anything to do with being  a first round pick in football?

Its about expectations. Just saying theres the expectation that if you're a 1st round pick in any major sport, youre expected to be a top tier player, not a 3rd running back or 12th forward in the NHL. And thats true, there is that expectation. But it doesn't always pan out that way in the NHL & thats not to say that player can't go on to have a solid career. But if you were drafted 14th like Girgensons, or 8th like Mittelstadt, there was an expectation that you could turn out to be something more than say a 4th line player or a healthy scratch.

Whole thing with hockey is that theres so many variables to a players development. Often a players draft position detracts from who they are. And its not like the players get to choose where they get drafted. If we drafted Girgensons at 14 & he's forever a 4th line player, then that was our mistake drafting him too high, because you hope for more than that with the premium that 1st round picks have. But that doesn't mean he can't be a solid player for you.

Edited December 13, 2019 by MillerVaive

[Pimlach]

I have always liked Larry.  Yet I hope we don’t go crazy on the contracts for these guys.  Good teams develop guys like this all the time.  Dont waste or throw away 1st and 2nd round picks, the Blues have bunches of these types of players.  Hard workers.  

Also, looking at minutes and responsibilities - the GLO Line is our 3rd line. 

[Doohicksie]

What's with the thread title?  I mean, really....

[Curt]

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

So Larsson at 4 years x3mil

Zemgus at 3 years x2.75?

I think 1-2 yrs and $0.5-1M less for both.

PS:  GLO > LOG

Edited December 13, 2019 by Curt

[inkman]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

What's with the thread title?  I mean, really....

 

2 hours ago, Curt said:

I think 1-2 yrs and $0.5-1M less for both.

PS:  GLO > LOG

Maybe I'm just an old curmudgeon but this GLO line crap has to go.  Are they pregnant?  Why are they glo-ing?  Or are they just fabulous, not that there is anything wrong with that.  Can we at least pretend this is a tough game played by tough guys doing extraordinary things or do we just want to picture them glo-ing like unicorns on rainbows.  I don't get it.  

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, inkman said:

 

Maybe I'm just an old curmudgeon but this GLO line crap has to go.  Are they pregnant?  Why are they glo-ing?  Or are they just fabulous, not that there is anything wrong with that.  Can we at least pretend this is a tough game played by tough guys doing extraordinary things or do we just want to picture them glo-ing like unicorns on rainbows.  I don't get it.  

Not sure about that line but Olofsson, Eichel, & Reinhart are the VJ's and video definitely killed the radio star. ?

[Curt]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

 

Maybe I'm just an old curmudgeon but this GLO line crap has to go.  Are they pregnant?  Why are they glo-ing?  Or are they just fabulous, not that there is anything wrong with that.  Can we at least pretend this is a tough game played by tough guys doing extraordinary things or do we just want to picture them glo-ing like unicorns on rainbows.  I don't get it.  

2 reasons.  GLO flows off the tongue better than LOG, and second, G-L-O has the initials in the correct positions that they play, G-L-O. LW-C-RW.

[...]

9 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

GLO AAV = $9.1M.   This is way above a fourth line cost.  I like them all, but if you have a $6M 4th (3rd?) line player, you need to make concessions elsewhere.   You cannot have both come back on $2.25-2.5M AAV,  or we an $11M 4th line for 2021 & 2022.   If KO goes to LTIR, then it's a different story.   

You don't sit a bad contract because you want to pout about it. The situation with Okposo is clearly, obviously not Botterill's doing. You know how Botterill "solved" it? You do what RK is doing and make the most of it.

People can bitch about the ROR trade and it's valid, especially because we're missing details. Bitching about the cost of our "fourth" line because Okposo is on it is absurd.

[Brawndo]

LOG- logging the tough minutes against the opponent’s top line. Or the opponent left the ice feeling like they had been hit by a log. 

[Broken Ankles]

54 minutes ago, ... said:

You don't sit a bad contract because you want to pout about it. The situation with Okposo is clearly, obviously not Botterill's doing. You know how Botterill "solved" it? You do what RK is doing and make the most of it.

People can bitch about the ROR trade and it's valid, especially because we're missing details. Bitching about the cost of our "fourth" line because Okposo is on it is absurd.

It’s not absurd at all.  And I’m not “bitching” about it.   I like what RK has done with what is clearly a bad contract.  Some of the best Lemonade I’ve tasted.  What I stated was due to a bad contract, decisions must be made to mitigate the cap hit taken by one player.  Giving long term contracts to both Larsson and Girgs and spending over $9m on a fourth line is foolish.   Show me a Stanley Cup team that employs this logic.  And one by choice, not circumstance.   Both contracts are due in July and they were one year deals for a reason.  If Larsson is extended it’s because he is versatile, could play third line if needed, and RK prefers centers.  Aspland and Lazar could easily fill in on the fourth line in 2020 for about 1/3 of the cost and not miss a beat.  

[Doohicksie]

So how much should a team pay for a 4th line, in your opinion?

[...]

16 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

It’s not absurd at all.  And I’m not “bitching” about it.   I like what RK has done with what is clearly a bad contract.  Some of the best Lemonade I’ve tasted.  What I stated was due to a bad contract, decisions must be made to mitigate the cap hit taken by one player.  Giving long term contracts to both Larsson and Girgs and spending over $9m on a fourth line is foolish.   Show me a Stanley Cup team that employs this logic.  And one by choice, not circumstance.   Both contracts are due in July and they were one year deals for a reason.  If Larsson is extended it’s because he is versatile, could play third line if needed, and RK prefers centers.  Aspland and Lazar could easily fill in on the fourth line in 2020 for about 1/3 of the cost and not miss a beat.  

You have to pay Larry and Gus if you want their performance. You can't not pay Larry and Gus just because Okposo is there. That's foolish.

[woods-racer]

7 minutes ago, ... said:

You have to pay Larry and Gus if you want their performance. You can't not pay Larry and Gus just because Okposo is there. That's foolish.

That's what I've been trying to say.

Getting two players from somewhere else that are not as good but  cheaper, because the 1 guy on that line has a bad contract, won't make that line better.

Edited December 14, 2019 by woods-racer