Who is the Sabres 2nd Best Forward?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Most would argue that Reinhart is and maybe he is but I think there is a growing argument for Skinner and even Olofsson.  Yes Olofsson.

VO is tied now with Samson with 20 pts in 26 games.  He is also tied with Skinner for 2nd in goals. He is also at zero for +/-.  Skinner is -2 and Samson -5.

VO also has turned it on as late and now has 4g and 6a in his last 11 games.  He is now skating upwards of 22 minutes a game and all 4 goals are at even strength.  Granted he has mostly skated with Jack and that has helped.  But he is also driving offense.  His shot is as good as advertised but his passing is much better then expected.  RK even threw him out on the PK recently against TB.  Also 7 of his 10 assists are at even strength.

Edited November 30, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[Zamboni]

So are you basing your opinion on +/- and points? Nothing else?

[GASabresIUFAN]

11 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

So are you basing your opinion on +/- and points? Nothing else?

No.  His recent play has placed him in the top tier of the forwards on this team.  The +/- is a reflection on his improved play, willingness to backcheck, his ability to drive offense and developing chemistry with Eichel.  

‘Nothing else”?  What about 2nd in goals, 2nd In pts, up to 22 minutes a game in PT.  All those stats were in my previous post.  Why did you ignore them?

 

[Thorner]

It’s Skinner. 

Olofsson has been good, very happy with how he’s coming along. But he’s being elevated as well, by an Elite player, and considering just how good Jack has been, the affect he’s had on VO I’d wager is very substantial. 

Again, taking nothing away from VO. Skinner generates more individually, though. If VO was the better player, he’d be the one on his own line.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Thorny

[SABRES 0311]

Isn’t it nice being able to have this debate? Remember when Drew Stanford would’ve been in this discussion?

[Doohicksie]

Jack is the second best forward on the team.  He's also the first best.  He's that good.

 

Seriously, I'm not ready to crown Olofsson #2, but his development curve this season seems to be as strong as Josh Allen's.

[miles]

Skinner is the number 2, no doubt. He has been snakebites as of late, especially with his entire been on ir. 

I think samson is a completely different player and really more suited to be a center. I think he would have a ton less points if he switched places with skinner. A ton

[bob_sauve28]

Skinner, IMO. 

 

Shout out to Jimmy Vesey who has been great last few games. Hope he continues his great play and we resign him. 

 

Marcus Johansson is good in so many ways, face offs, passing, he is big and smart. 

 

Is Joki our best defenseman? I think he might be 

[Weave]

Olofsson is nowhere near our 2nd best forward.  On any other line he's invisible, or visible for the wrong reasons.  He's got an amazing shot.  Everything else about his game is underdeveloped.

I can't really pick between Skinner and Sam for #2.  Different players, about the same impact on the game overall.

Pre injury I would have had Mojo as our #2, but not currently.

[OhMyDahlin]

1. Eichel

2. Reinhart

3. Skinner

4. Olofsson

 

5th best is the question here?

[Randall Flagg]

I'd say Samson, I'd believe that Skinner is usually tied with him.

[Zamboni]

Who is judging by a snapshot in time  and who is judging in months or years being an NHLer? 

[nfreeman]

Skinner, and it's not a close call IMHO.

[Taro T]

2 really is a toss up between Reinhart and Skinner.  Would lean towards Sam, but agree that a case can be made for Jeff.

Would say Johansson is a solid 4 with Olofsson a distant, but closing 5.  And really believe that Olofsson's success is a byproduct of playing with Eichel.  And that success was expected, which is why some of us wanted Olofsson playing with Eichel as when he's on Eichel's line, the Sabres arguably have 5 top 6 forwards, but if he was on another line they'd only have 4.

[mjd1001]

12 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Skinner, and it's not a close call IMHO.

Agreed.  I can understand Reinhart being brought up in the discussion, but right now it's Skinner.

[dudacek]

I think this comes down to personal taste. It depends on when you ask this question and whether you prefer puckhandling to passing, puck pressure to puck protection, one-on-one skill to the ability to support his teammates.

Samson and Skins are both very good, very complementary and completely different players.

I wish they were battling for F3 ranking instead of F2.

Edited November 30, 2019 by dudacek

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

2 really is a toss up between Reinhart and Skinner.  Would lean towards Sam, but agree that a case can be made for Jeff.

Would say Johansson is a solid 4 with Olofsson a distant, but closing 5.  And really believe that Olofsson's success is a byproduct of playing with Eichel.  And that success was expected, which is why some of us wanted Olofsson playing with Eichel as when he's on Eichel's line, the Sabres arguably have 5 top 6 forwards, but if he was on another line they'd only have 4.

Botterill took some heat for asking Eichel to elevate players like Crosby, but it seems to me that may be exactly what is happening with Olofsson.

Jimmy Vesey’s hot streak is consistent with his track record, just like his cold streak was, and he will return to earth. Hopefully Victor can follow more of a Chris Kunitz, James Neal, Jake Guentzel path.

Olofsson has been doing so much more on his own the past half-dozen games (he’s outplayed Sam the past two and got me hoping for a Sam Skins Mojo line); sure hope it can last.

[dudacek]

I think Skinner’s play has improved the past few games, and like his game overall, but I am surprised that he doesn’t seem to get targeted for criticism the way the Sabres other good players get targeted. He is pacing for less than 50 points this year.

Given Ralph’s tendencies to stick with certain things with the idea that with repetition the players will eventually get it right, I wonder if his challenge to Jeff is to carry his own line the way top players should and if there are lessons being taught there and hopefully learned.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I think Skinner’s play has improved the past few games, and like his game overall, but I am surprised that he doesn’t seem to get targeted for criticism the way the Sabres other good players get targeted. He is pacing for less than 50 points this year.

Given Ralph’s tendencies to stick with certain things with the idea that with repetition the players will eventually get it right, I wonder if his challenge to Jeff is to carry his own line the way top players should and if there are lessons being taught there and hopefully learned.

How can he be blamed for a lack of assists when for nearly 20 games he had a boat anchor that's probably good for 3-5 goals if healthy the entire season?

He's paid to pot 40 goals playing with Eichel or 30+ playing on any other line.  He's pretty much in line goal wise with where he should be and will likely pace closer to 20-25 assists once he gets reunited with Johansson and they get an NHLer to skate with them.

[dudacek]

22 minutes ago, Taro T said:

How can he be blamed for a lack of assists when for nearly 20 games he had a boat anchor that's probably good for 3-5 goals if healthy the entire season?

He's paid to pot 40 goals playing with Eichel or 30+ playing on any other line.  He's pretty much in line goal wise with where he should be and will likely pace closer to 20-25 assists once he gets reunited with Johansson and they get an NHLer to skate with them.

Agree with this, but I’m still not sure why the general fan base seems to as well.

Sam does as much (for far less money) and people want to trade him. Dahlin has as many points and people wanted him benched. Jack carries the team on his back for half its wins and people complain he doesn’t do it enough, isn’t a leader, or isn’t elite. People want to punt Risto into the sun like he’s Messy Balls reincarnated despite nine points and a -1 and the fact he’s asked to play against the other team’s best every single night.

Jeff Skinner is paid to score goals and had 2 in his last 12 games before last night and was invisible for half of them and fingers weren’t pointing. Same with the end of last season when he scored 2 in 24 before potting a pair in his final game.

Dont get me wrong, I don’t think he is overrated, or that he deserves more flak. I’m just surprised he doesn’t get it.

Hes Sabrespace’s fair-haired boy.

Edited November 30, 2019 by dudacek

[Thorner]

Skinner’s tail off last year was right in line with when he miraculously came back from the dead from what looked live to be a significant injury. I think it’s likely he was feeling the affects. 

It was mentioned up thread that both Skinner and Reinhart are very complimentary players, and while true in a sense, Skinner seems to generate much more on his own than Reino and is definitely not what I’d term a complimentary player. His stats go up with a great C (as anyone’s would) but he’s still tied for the team lead in goals mustering a lot by himself. 

He also scores his goals at even strength, which is quite important. I believe he’s at the level you’d want for a team’s second best player, rather than it’s third, which was also mentioned. 

[Taro T]

31 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Agree with this, but I’m still not sure why the general fan base seems to as well.

Sam does as much (for far less money) and people want to trade him. Dahlin has as many points and people wanted him benched. Jack carries the team on his back for half its wins and people complain he doesn’t do it enough, isn’t a leader, or isn’t elite. People want to punt Risto into the sun like he’s Messy Balls reincarnated despite nine points and a -1 and the fact he’s asked to play against the other team’s best every single night.

Jeff Skinner is paid to score goals and had 2 in his last 12 games before last night and was invisible for half of them and fingers weren’t pointing. Same with the end of last season when he scored 2 in 24 before potting a pair in his final game.

Dont get me wrong, I don’t think he is overrated, or that he deserves more flak. I’m just surprised he doesn’t get it.

Hes Sabrespace’s fair-haired boy.

Actually, thinking on it a bit more, it is a pretty good question.

Last year's fall off was IMHO largely due to the injury he suffered against the Caps (though he didn't miss any time, his skating was definitely effected) and then getting moved to the Rodrigues line.  Pretty clear to see a reason (or reasons) for him not to get blamed on that one.

 

This year, it's probably because not even Eichel would / should be expected to get points feeding Sobotka.  But that's likely not the entirety of it.  It also likely stems in part from people seeing how hard he skates every time and the realization that nobody will score a lot on any of their non-Eichel centered lines and that he's actually 2nd in goal scoring even with the recent slump which wasn't getting to Sheary, Mittelstadt, nor Vesey proportions.

And, to a lesser degree, you do seem correct; he seems to get the Pominville treatment - hometown fans seems to simply like him.

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Skinner’s tail off last year was right in line with when he miraculously came back from the dead from what looked live to be a significant injury. I think it’s likely he was feeling the affects. 

It was mentioned up thread that both Skinner and Reinhart are very complimentary players, and while true in a sense, Skinner seems to generate much more on his own than Reino and is definitely not what I’d term a complimentary player. His stats go up with a great C (as anyone’s would) but he’s still tied for the team lead in goals mustering a lot by himself. 

He also scores his goals at even strength, which is quite important. I believe he’s at the level you’d want for a team’s second best player, rather than it’s third, which was also mentioned. 

Didn’t you just go off about production?

Would you be happy with a #2 player producing 30ish goals and 50ish points without being defensively strong, or making his teammates better?

[Thorner]

27 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Didn’t you just go off about production?

Would you be happy with a #2 player producing 30ish goals and 50ish points without being defensively strong, or making his teammates better?

I went off about production? 

And yes, I would be. The thing about Skinner is when he scores his goals. He’s in the what, top 3-5 in even strength goals over the last several years? I’m placing a premium on even strength production as it’s harder to come by. 

Without being anchored by the likes of Sobotka he’s more of a 60 point player, which as mentioned because of how he picks up his points, and his underlyings generally being very good, I’m comfortable with as a team’s second best offensive threat.

I’d suspect Botterill at least agrees given what he paid the man. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorner]

31 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Actually, thinking on it a bit more, it is a pretty good question.

Last year's fall off was IMHO largely due to the injury he suffered against the Caps (though he didn't miss any time, his skating was definitely effected) and then getting moved to the Rodrigues line.  Pretty clear to see a reason (or reasons) for him not to get blamed on that one.

 

This year, it's probably because not even Eichel would / should be expected to get points feeding Sobotka.  But that's likely not the entirety of it.  It also likely stems in part from people seeing how hard he skates every time and the realization that nobody will score a lot on any of their non-Eichel centered lines and that he's actually 2nd in goal scoring even with the recent slump which wasn't getting to Sheary, Mittelstadt, nor Vesey proportions.

And, to a lesser degree, you do seem correct; he seems to get the Pominville treatment - hometown fans seems to simply like him.

Second in goals, and all 10 of them have been at even strength. For VO, only 4 at even.