Jack Eichel: Eliteness

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, Thorny said:

Eichel is 6th in points, 4th in even strength points, and 1st is even strength goals. 

[TrueBlueGED]

On 12/9/2019 at 2:49 PM, Zamboni said:

I don’t think this way, but I see that a certain chunk of fans do ... so I’m asking, not out of snark, but only out of pure curiosity....

why does it matter so much to some fans, that a Sabre “gets respect” or “gets recognized” by the league or by other cities or other fans. 
For me, personally, I couldn’t care less about what the league recognizes. Let alone other fan bases or publications/sports journalists Etc....

Not saying you ... but some fans put so much stock in what others think. 

 

On 12/9/2019 at 3:10 PM, Thorny said:

Probably stems from the fact that so many of the measurements for what constitutes a good or great player are based in public recognition. Stars of the week/month, All-Star /First/Second team selections, Hart, Pearson,  Norris, Vezina, Hall of fame, Conn Smythe etc etc are all decided by voting from those “in the know” in one way or another. 

Sure there are awards like the Stanley Cup and Art Ross that leave nothing to public opinion, but those are less common. 

The answer to why one would want the best player on their favourite team to accumulate awards and recognition I feel is an obvious one. 

Mostly this. I would simply add that, personally, I care about league-wide recognition for our best player because it's probably a sign the team is winning. So it's not so much I need people to praise Jack, it's the symbolic value that Jack getting the accolades he deserves is because I'm watching entertaining hockey. 

9 hours ago, Thorny said:

Eichel is 6th in points, 4th in even strength points, and 1st is even strength goals. 

Not elite until he's 1st in everything for a 3 year stretch. Gotta do everything we can to pretend we don't have an elite player. 

[shrader]

Last night proved it.  An elite player would never be left alone like that.  There's no other possible explanation for that goal.

[Doohicksie]

It's obvious that Thomas was more worried about our truly elite player: Sam Reinhart. 

[Stoner]

Here's the problem with superlative words. When you exaggerate, there's no word left for what might come next, and the word is watered down. Many were arguing even in year 2, definitely in year 3, that Jack was already elite, because he was in the point a game neighorhood. Well, now we see what elite really looks like. So was Jack not elite then or is he something more than elite now? Elite isn't just very good. It's being among the very best. After elite comes greatness. Is Jack great? Is he a great? Ah, words. Ah, SabreSpace.

Edited December 11, 2019 by PASabreFan

[Zamboni]

Hmmm ... and not everyone uses the same definition or weight when using a word. 
My vocabulary would go something like this ...

Chris Drury was a great player. But not Elite. I watched him from the time he was in Colorado thru his time in Buffalo and NY.

Jack Eichel is a great player on the cusp of elite. I need to see more (time and consistency, not necessarily more talent), before I throw elite or generational or whatever clarifying words fans like to throw around when describing players talents.

Elite > Great > Very good > good > Ellis > gragnani > Delmore >  Peters > Scott > Vinz

?

[nfreeman]

IMHO, "elite" = "undisputed top-5 player in the NHL."  Jack certainly hasn't been at that level prior to this year, but he may be there now.  I think this is a question best answered at the end of this season.

[...]

38 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Here's the problem with superlative words. When you exaggerate, there's no word left for what might come next, and the word is watered down. Many were arguing even in year 2, definitely in year 3, that Jack was already elite, because he was in the point a game neighorhood. Well, now we see what elite really looks like. So was Jack not elite then or is he something more than elite now? Elite isn't just very good. It's being among the very best. After elite comes greatness. Is Jack great? Is he a great? Ah, words. Ah, SabreSpace.

You must be bored.

Not only is word choice important, but it's also important who is making the choice.

Just because a certain type of poster might have called Jack elite before Jack actually demonstrated that he is among the elite, doesn't mean A) all of Sabrespace believed that, and B) it was true.

All "elite" means is superior in quality, rank, skill, etc.; a class above an arbitrary level. After that, you're inviting perpetual, circular discussions on what defines elite in whatever whatever you're talking about.

We won't define elite here for the rest of the hockey world, we won't even define elite for a majority of SSers. You're going to have to qualify whatever you decide on in this thread by calling it something like Deluca Elite.

Edited December 11, 2019 by ...
The Ghost of Dwight Drane

[Doohicksie]

On 12/9/2019 at 2:27 PM, Crusader1969 said:

this might have been discussed up thread but wouldn't Eichel be in top 3 for Hart at the moment?

Pierre McGuire mentioned in the coverage last night that he's in the conversation.  I don't know if that really counts as "He's in the national media discussion for Hart" since national sports broadcasts are all hyping the matchup as worth watching to boost ratings, but it could be the beginning of the conversation.

As to whether Jack gets the recognition, I'm sure he'd like to be nominated for/win the Hart Trophy, but that's probably far behind his desire for this team to be successful.  Ultimately his success is linked to that of the team and he knows it. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Jack’s first goal last night against Stl answered the elite question for me once and for all.  They had 5 guys staring at him and none were man enough to go behind the net and dig him out. It’s like they knew that one wrong move and the puck was in the back of the net.  Then they failed to even try and puck ended up in the back of the net anyway.  

Only the elite of the elite get that kind of respect.  

[dudacek]

Liger defined elite for the purposes of this thread in the opening post.

No, I’m not going to tell you what he said. It’s much more fun to just watch this discussion.

Edited December 11, 2019 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

27 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

IMHO, "elite" = "undisputed top-5 player in the NHL."  Jack certainly hasn't been at that level prior to this year, but he may be there now.  I think this is a question best answered at the end of this season.

What players would you call elite then since, say, the start of the 2018-19 season?

I'd have Sid, McD, and MacK , plus maybe Kucherov, but there's not any one player besides them I'd be okay with calling an undisputed top 5 player in the NHL, any other name you give I can dispute.That list is guaranteed to not have most of Ovechkin, Barkov, Bergeron, Panarin, Pasta, Marchand, Rantanen, Matthews, Draisaitl, Point, Jack, Kane, Tavares, any Sharks forward,  not to mention many defensemen and goalies. I think that's restrictive to the point of uselessness, because these players are all elite NHLers.

There are 998 skaters that have laced up in that time period, so we'll call it a thousand. I think calling the top 0.5% elite is too restrictive, as what is slightly worse than elite? just very good? The top 1% of all skaters are not elite, some of them are just very good? 

[LGR4GM]

32 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Liger defined elite for the purposes of this thread in the opening post.

No, I’m not going to tell you what he said. It’s much more fun to just watch this discussion.

I did indeed. 

[MattPie]

That definition seems a little wide, but I'd call it good enough. Eichel meets that bar this season. I also notice we're really only talking forwards and a heavy dose of Centers. Not many are talking Ovechkin, which certainly should be in this discussion.

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, ... said:

You must be bored.

Not only is word choice important, but it's also important who is making the choice.

Just because a certain type of poster might have called Jack elite before Jack actually demonstrated that he is among the elite, doesn't mean A) all of Sabrespace believed that, and B) it was true.

All "elite" means is superior in quality, rank, skill, etc.; a class above an arbitrary level. After that, you're inviting perpetual, circular discussions on what defines elite in whatever whatever you're talking about.

We won't define elite here for the rest of the hockey world, we won't even define elite for a majority of SSers. You're going to have to qualify whatever you decide on in this thread by calling it something like Deluca Elite.

I wasn't bored, but I am now.

35 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I did indeed. 

Where would I find this definition?

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

IMHO, "elite" = "undisputed top-5 player in the NHL."  Jack certainly hasn't been at that level prior to this year, but he may be there now.  I think this is a question best answered at the end of this season.

I find it too difficult to lump forwards, dmen and goalies together and rank them. Is Jack an elite forward? Top 10%. Certainly. Elite center? Almost certainly. Elite number-one center... one of three league wide? I think that's the real debate.

Mario was Great.

[LGR4GM]

36 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I wasn't bored, but I am now.

Where would I find this definition?

Opening post of this thread. 

[mjd1001]

5 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

What players would you call elite then since, say, the start of the 2018-19 season?
 

For me, being "Elite" requires you to be at a very high level for a few years, not just 40-80 games. The start of the 2018-2019 season is the minimum I would go to judge someone as 'elite' statistically, and would probably want a longer time frame than that.

But to use the time frame you brought up (start of 2018-2019) Eichel is 10th in points...and 19th in goals...13th in points per game played...and no playoff appearances.  Right now, this MIGHT be the point where he is 'entering' the elite category, but I need a lot more time for him to sustain this years level/pace before I can declare that.

[LGR4GM]

 

[shrader]

Ahhhh re-drafts.  That has to be one of the most stupid click bait practices you'll ever see.

[Doohicksie]

5 minutes ago, shrader said:

Ahhhh re-drafts.  That has to be one of the most stupid click bait practices you'll ever see.

Just as bad as mock drafts.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

(Realizing this triggers one of your hot buttons; apologies for that.) 

But looking at those names, wouldn't it have been nice to have an extra pick or 2 in that draft?  Darn shame there was no way to make that happen. ?

[SDS]

14 minutes ago, Taro T said:

(Realizing this triggers one of your hot buttons; apologies for that.) 

But looking at those names, wouldn't it have been nice to have an extra pick or 2 in that draft?  Darn shame there was no way to make that happen. ?

Is this a Lehner reference?

[shrader]

11 minutes ago, SDS said:

Is this a Lehner reference?

And Kane. 

[Taro T]

23 minutes ago, SDS said:

Is this a Lehner reference?

Pretty much.

11 minutes ago, shrader said:

And Kane. 

Close, but no cigar.