Jack Eichel: Eliteness

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

Can someone shoot this thread into the sun?  

 

I think I'm going to go live in a cave and eat bugs.  Sounds much better than arguing if a guy playing a kids game is playing well enough to be considered a completely subjective term. Buh-bye. 

It really sucks that you can’t get out of your “must read every thread, even the ones I have no interest in” Sabrespace contract. At least you were kind enough to take a big ? in it before leaving. 

[mjd1001]

4 hours ago, inkman said:

Can someone shoot this thread into the sun?  

 

I think I'm going to go live in a cave and eat bugs.  Sounds much better than arguing if a guy playing a kids game is playing well enough to be considered a completely subjective term. Buh-bye. 

Wow, what do you consider the point of a message board/discussion board then?  Or should we run every topic by you first to see if you deem it worthy?

[Stoner]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

I’ve been hearing this a lot lately as the topic of Eichel has come up more in day-to-day hockey talk. You are of course correct, but the whole sentiment is getting agitating at this point, to be honest. 

Nearly every time he’s brought up it’s, well, “people just don’t know he’s that good” and “well he’s overshadowed by McDavid”. Like, really? At some point more should be expected for fans of the game at large. The stats, highlights, games are out there. 

People can and should just view Eichel for what he is. I know, the Sabres struggle to get national coverage, haven’t made the playoffs, etc. But it’s 2019. People are on their phones all the time anyways and this stuff is a click away. 

Not really much to do with your post, just ranting. I had someone legitimately arguing with me that Joe Flacco of all people is more of an elite player within his sport than Jack Eichel is, yesterday. 

“He’s merely the best player on a bad team” was the refrain. As if Eichel’s talent and production don’t deserve their place within a league wide conversation of the game’s stand-out players. 

I know, hopefully when they start making the playoffs it changes. But he should be getting more recognition now. Obviously my view is somewhat anecdotal, as well. Many of the people I converse with are purely Jets fans and pay little attention to the league at large. 

 

Maybe that's a good rough and ready definition of elite/great/superstar. Does the average hockey fan in most NHL cities know who the guy is and consider him elite/etc.?

[Thorner]

23 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Maybe that's a good rough and ready definition of elite/great/superstar. Does the average hockey fan in most NHL cities know who the guy is and consider him elite/etc.?

I don't think that would be a very good definition. Plenty still don't seem to even know who Barkov, for example, even is, nevermind the fact he is an elite player. He's just one of many players like that. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Thorny

[inkman]

7 hours ago, Thorny said:

It really sucks that you can’t get out of your “must read every thread, even the ones I have no interest in” Sabrespace contract. At least you were kind enough to take a big ? in it before leaving. 

 

4 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Wow, what do you consider the point of a message board/discussion board then?  Or should we run every topic by you first to see if you deem it worthy?

This is like arguing politics.  You already have an opinion and no one is changing it.  You want this thread to actually accomplish something, make it a poll. At least then it will be measuring something.  Otherwise this is just verbal ma$terbation.

Edited December 2, 2019 by inkman

[Andrew Amerk]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

 

This is like arguing politics.  You already have an opinion and no one is changing it.  You want this thread to actually accomplish something, make it a poll. At least then it will be measuring something.  Otherwise this is just verbal ma$terbation.

Why is this thread an argument and not just a discussion?

[Stoner]

9 hours ago, inkman said:

 

This is like arguing politics.  You already have an opinion and no one is changing it.  You want this thread to actually accomplish something, make it a poll. At least then it will be measuring something.  Otherwise this is just verbal ma$terbation.

verbal ma$sterbation died way too young. R.I.P.

[inkman]

6 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Why is this thread an argument and not just a discussion?

Ok substitute the discussion for argument. I don't think my point changes.  There is no way to measure "eliteness" so what are we getting out of this "discussion".

[Neo]

The young man is making me re-think my “very good” label.

[LTS]

33 minutes ago, inkman said:

Ok substitute the discussion for argument. I don't think my point changes.  There is no way to measure "eliteness" so what are we getting out of this "discussion".

I think the "we" part of your post is what should be examined.

There are those in this thread that are finding value in the discussion.  So "they" are getting value.

There are those, such as yourself, who apparently are not finding value.  So "you" are not getting value.

I'm not sure the "we" can be used to define everyone here.

What you seem to be ignoring is the point that you don't need to read the thread and certainly don't need to crap in it.  If you can ignore what others have said about your insertion into the "discussion" then you are capable of ignoring the thread.

 

[Doohicksie]

18 hours ago, Thorny said:

I know, hopefully when they start making the playoffs it changes. But he should be getting more recognition now. Obviously my view is somewhat anecdotal, as well.

This is happening right now with Josh Allen, even on this forum.  There's the sense that Allen "belongs" in the current crop of the best up-and-coming QBs.  I think when the Sabres get to playoffs, Eich will be similarly recognized.

Putting it another way, when teams are having trouble beating the Sabres, it will become apparent that Jack Eichel is the primary reason why.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Doohickie

[Curt]

40 minutes ago, inkman said:

Ok substitute the discussion for argument. I don't think my point changes.  There is no way to measure "eliteness" so what are we getting out of this "discussion".

There actually are ways to measure “eliteness”, but different people have different measurements.  This is a thread where people can discuss Eichel and where he stands among the league’s best.

Would you just feel better if it was named “Eichel-How good is he?” Or something like that?  Just let it be.  If you don’t want to discuss Eichel’s level of play, then don’t.

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Curt said:

There actually are ways to measure “eliteness”, but different people have different measurements.  This is a thread where people can discuss Eichel and where he stands among the league’s best.

Would you just feel better if it was named “Eichel-How good is he?” Or something like that?  Just let it be.  If you don’t want to discuss Eichel’s level of play, then don’t.

That's the premise. 

[LGR4GM]

This thread was started at a time when there was a little chatter about maybe trading Eichel because he wasn't good enough. So I thought it would be a good discussion to see where we think he is in regards to the elite players of the game. The most basic definition I have of Elite is top 20-25 at your position. 

[Weave]

28 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This thread was started at a time when there was a little chatter about maybe trading Eichel because he wasn't good enough. So I thought it would be a good discussion to see where we think he is in regards to the elite players of the game. The most basic definition I have of Elite is top 20-25 at your position. 

I’m not sure “good enough “ was the catalyst for the trade chatter.  Granted, I’m putting words in someone else’s mouth.

Is he the right person for this team to move forward was the question as I understood  it.

He’s been showing over the last few games that he could be the right person. Consistency will be the key.

[inkman]

59 minutes ago, LTS said:

I think the "we" part of your post is what should be examined.

There are those in this thread that are finding value in the discussion.  So "they" are getting value.

There are those, such as yourself, who apparently are not finding value.  So "you" are not getting value.

I'm not sure the "we" can be used to define everyone here.

What you seem to be ignoring is the point that you don't need to read the thread and certainly don't need to crap in it.  If you can ignore what others have said about your insertion into the "discussion" then you are capable of ignoring the thread.

 

I did ignore it for weeks mostly because the title was off putting.  Then I dropped and and here we are. 

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

Then I dropped and and here we are. 

[Zamboni]

18 hours ago, Thorny said:

It really sucks that you can’t get out of your “must read every thread, even the ones I have no interest in” Sabrespace contract. At least you were kind enough to take a big ? in it before leaving. 

Now did you mean poop or the other four letter word? Hmmm ...

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

I did ignore it for weeks mostly because the title was off putting.  Then I dropped and and here we are. 

The thread is only nine days old.

Maybe it just seems like weeks.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Jack is an elite forward.  
Last season he finished in the top 25 in pts for all forwards which is near elite status in today’s NHL.  

This season he has stepped it up on both ends of the ice.  He is 8th in goals and 6th in pts.  Guys like Kane, Panarin, Matthews, Ovie, and Barkov are all behind him.

He is also showing more leadership on the ice with back checking and more physical play. 

He keeps this up and he’ll be the player we all hoped he’d become. 

Now if our players in the near elite or excellent tiers (Skinner and Reinhart) would step up consistently and help him out. 

I was trying to place NHL forwards in tiers.  This is the base criteria that I came up with.  Depending on other skills (or lack there of)  I might elevate or decrease someone.  ROR for example lacks near elite production, but adds with face offs and 2 way play. 

Elite - top 15 in pts (90) or goals (40)

Near elite top 30 in pts (80) or goals (35)

Excellent - top 60 in pts (65) or goals (27)

Very Good - top 100 in pts (50) or goals (22)

Good - top 150 in pts (40) or goals (17)

Solid - top 200 in pts (30)

Quality Depth - top 275 in pts (23)

Depth player - 15 pts 

Filer - everyone else

There were about 422 forwards that played at least 30 NHL games last season. In theory there are 186 top 6 forwards (31 x 6).

My top 9 Sabres

Eichel - Elite tier

Skinner - Elite sniper, near elite overall

Olofsson - excellent tier

Reinhart - excellent tier 

Johannson - Very Good

Vesey - Good, because of goal scoring and 2 way play

Mitts - Solid

Sheary - Solid

Girgensons - Quality Depth

After Mitts, everyone is easily replaced.  I know I have Vesey higher then others, but I think he is much more the player we have seen lately then the guy early in the year.  I’m also still hopeful on Mitts given his age and limited experience.

If Thompson were healthy I’d have him over Sheary.  
 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[LTS]

3 hours ago, inkman said:

I did ignore it for weeks mostly because the title was off putting.  Then I dropped and and here we are. 

This is why I wish there was an ignore thread option.  I don't ignore people, but there have been plenty of threads I wish I could ignore. ?

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, LTS said:

This is why I wish there was an ignore thread option.  I don't ignore people, but there have been plenty of threads I wish I could ignore. ?

I've looked for this feature more than once. Most notably when politics was a thing, but also for Off Topic threads with a subject uninteresting to me

 

[Mustache of God]

Eichel is definitely entering the "elite" stage of the NHL. The only thing I need to see from here on out is consistency through the rest of the season.

I just looked at the NHL stats and Jack is #7 in the league with 35 points. Top 4 scores are McDavid, Draisaitl, Marchand and Pasternack. Those pairs play together and are padding each others stats. Ovetchkin and Carlson are also in the top 10 and I'm guessing they've combined for a bunch of spots. That leaves Mackinnon, Eichel, Kane and Panarin as the only other players in the top 10 doing it by themselves....that's elite company right there.

 

[Thorner]

10 hours ago, Doohickie said:

This is happening right now with Josh Allen, even on this forum.  There's the sense that Allen "belongs" in the current crop of the best up-and-coming QBs.  I think when the Sabres get to playoffs, Eich will be similarly recognized.

Putting it another way, when teams are having trouble beating the Sabres, it will become apparent that Jack Eichel is the primary reason why.

Josh Allen is not in the same category as Jack Eichel, I'm sorry. I'm stoked he's playing very well and stuff but he's not among the elite in his field at this time. Maybe he gets there. 

[Thorner]

Eichel is now 6th in league scoring. 

Of the 5 players ahead of him, 4 of them belong to duos playing on the same line: McDavid/Draisaitl, Marchand/Pastrnak. 

MacKinnon is 5th, Eichel 6th.