Jack Eichel: Eliteness

[mjd1001]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

If the bar for elite is one of the top-20 forwards in the league, then yes, Eichel is elite.

The problem I have with calling Eichel elite is I do agree with you...if that is the bar then he probably is Elite...but I don't think the bar should be that low.

There are regular players...then there are stars...then there are superstars...then Elite is a tier above that.  To be Elite, you have raise yourself up above the large group of stars over a period of time (2-3 seasons at least).

As far as goal scorers, Ovechkin, Matthews, Pastrnak, and McDavid are Elite.

As far as points...Add Kucherov, Pat Kane, and MacKinnon, maybe Marchand to that list.

Throw in 3-4 of the best of the best defensmen.

I'm not sure if there even IS an elite Goalie right now.

To me, there are no more than 8-10 "Elite" players in the league at any given time.  Eichel is good, but he isn't at that level.

[Curt]

29 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

The problem I have with calling Eichel elite is I do agree with you...if that is the bar then he probably is Elite...but I don't think the bar should be that low.

There are regular players...then there are stars...then there are superstars...then Elite is a tier above that.  To be Elite, you have raise yourself up above the large group of stars over a period of time (2-3 seasons at least).

As far as goal scorers, Ovechkin, Matthews, Pastrnak, and McDavid are Elite.

As far as points...Add Kucherov, Pat Kane, and MacKinnon, maybe Marchand to that list.

Throw in 3-4 of the best of the best defensmen.

I'm not sure if there even IS an elite Goalie right now.

To me, there are no more than 8-10 "Elite" players in the league at any given time.  Eichel is good, but he isn't at that level.

Yeah, that’s all fine. I was just going with what the OP laid out.

Just for discussion sake, using your criteria, who would you currently classify as elite?

[mjd1001]

Most of the people I discussed I would think are currently "Elite"forwards: McDavid, Matthews, Ovechkin, Kucherov, MacKinnon.....MAYBE Marchand or Pastrnak.  Crosby I think has dropped a tad bit below this category...Eichel is a step below them also.  The Tricky part is where do you draw the line.  There is the 'sub elite' category that MAYBE I could be convinced to make Elite but don't right now (Patrick Kane comes to mind.)

 

If you look at the last 2+ years in terms of points per game played...McDavid is at 1.46...Kuch at 1.37, Marchand at 1.33, MacKinnon at 1.28..then a decent drop down to Draisatl at 1.20...then another noticable drop down to Pastrnak at 1.16 with 6 other playes between 1.16 and 1.14. Then you have a bunch of players clustered in there with drops every .01 or .02.  To me the 'cluster' of players starts at Pastrnak...anything below him and I'd say you are no longer elite because you are so close to everyone else.

Its all about where do you draw that line. I draw the line in terms of offensive production where you seperate yourself from the group. Eichel is tied for 21st at 1.05.

The reason I'd put Pastrnak in the Elite category is its not just points...him and Ovi are putting in a lot of goals so I count goals more than points.

Edited November 27, 2019 by mjd1001
added content

[Stoner]

McDavid is +54 for his career and was 16th and 26th in Selke voting his second and third seasons, respectively. Jack is a career -65.

[Curt]

56 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

McDavid is +54 for his career and was 16th and 26th in Selke voting his second and third seasons, respectively. Jack is a career -65.

Yes, McDavid is much better than Eichel.  I think that’s one of the few things that we can all agree on.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Most of the people I discussed I would think are currently "Elite"forwards: McDavid, Matthews, Ovechkin, Kucherov, MacKinnon.....MAYBE Marchand or Pastrnak.  Crosby I think has dropped a tad bit below this category...Eichel is a step below them also.  The Tricky part is where do you draw the line.  There is the 'sub elite' category that MAYBE I could be convinced to make Elite but don't right now (Patrick Kane comes to mind.)

 

If you look at the last 2+ years in terms of points per game played...McDavid is at 1.46...Kuch at 1.37, Marchand at 1.33, MacKinnon at 1.28..then a decent drop down to Draisatl at 1.20...then another noticable drop down to Pastrnak at 1.16 with 6 other playes between 1.16 and 1.14. Then you have a bunch of players clustered in there with drops every .01 or .02.  To me the 'cluster' of players starts at Pastrnak...anything below him and I'd say you are no longer elite because you are so close to everyone else.

Its all about where do you draw that line. I draw the line in terms of offensive production where you seperate yourself from the group. Eichel is tied for 21st at 1.05.

The reason I'd put Pastrnak in the Elite category is its not just points...him and Ovi are putting in a lot of goals so I count goals more than points.

Ok, your reasoning makes sense.  I do however think Matthews is a little over rated, he is an amazing goal scorer though.  And Crosby is still amazing.  I would say he is the 2nd best forward (maybe player?) in the world.

 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Most of the people I discussed I would think are currently "Elite"forwards: McDavid, Matthews, Ovechkin, Kucherov, MacKinnon.....MAYBE Marchand or Pastrnak.  Crosby I think has dropped a tad bit below this category...Eichel is a step below them also.  The Tricky part is where do you draw the line.  There is the 'sub elite' category that MAYBE I could be convinced to make Elite but don't right now (Patrick Kane comes to mind.)

 

If you look at the last 2+ years in terms of points per game played...McDavid is at 1.46...Kuch at 1.37, Marchand at 1.33, MacKinnon at 1.28..then a decent drop down to Draisatl at 1.20...then another noticable drop down to Pastrnak at 1.16 with 6 other playes between 1.16 and 1.14. Then you have a bunch of players clustered in there with drops every .01 or .02.  To me the 'cluster' of players starts at Pastrnak...anything below him and I'd say you are no longer elite because you are so close to everyone else.

Its all about where do you draw that line. I draw the line in terms of offensive production where you seperate yourself from the group. Eichel is tied for 21st at 1.05.

The reason I'd put Pastrnak in the Elite category is its not just points...him and Ovi are putting in a lot of goals so I count goals more than points.

This is fair, though Crosby is certainly elite. I also think Eichel is as least as good as Matthews, at this point.

But let's see where things stand at the end of the season. Eichel is pacing for a top 10 finish in points per game, and that would certainly be elite production. He's still improving his offensive production year over year. He's right about where MacKinnon was at the same point, and well ahead of Kucherov and Marchand. 

[Stoner]

32 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This is fair, though Crosby is certainly elite. I also think Eichel is as least as good as Matthews, at this point.

But let's see where things stand at the end of the season. Eichel is pacing for a top 10 finish in points per game, and that would certainly be elite production. He's still improving his offensive production year over year. He's right about where MacKinnon was at the same point, and well ahead of Kucherov and Marchand. 

See, there's the real rub. You can have elite production and not be elite. Some things just can't be quantified.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

See, there's the real rub. You can have elite production and not be elite. Some things just can't be quantified.

Well, considering the supporting cast Eichel has, that elite production is even more impressive and if anything an even stronger indicator he in in fact elite. 

But in the end it's about consistency. If Jack produces at an elite level this year then tails off, ya, he's not an elite player. But I'm looking at the pedigree and trend line here. He was supposed to produce a lot, he is now producing a lot, comparing favourably with other players at the same age who have now established themselves as elite. His production rate has done nothing but increase year over year. THAT is uncommon. An indicator of the talent of the player in question.

So I don't think I'm going out on much of a limb in calling him elite. That's how he's producing at this time. If he stops, I'll just stop calling him elite. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Thorny

[#freejame]

When Jack Eichel is talked about by his teammates the way Josh Allen is and when he starts to have Allen’s attitude, the Sabres will be successful.

[Thorner]

26gp, 16g, 18a, 34p, +5

[GASabresIUFAN]

Jack did make a spectacular defensive play tonight in the 1st against Tavares.

[Scottysabres]

Terry and Kim Pegula,

Get Eichel some help. Please, we the fans implore you. Enough of this nonsense. Make the moves already...…….

Signed,

The Fan Base

 

[Stoner]

I'll allow it.

[steveoath]

How good was jacks play leading up to olofsson's goal? Outmuscled Muzzin then kept hold of the puck until Olofsson was in snipe position! 

[Taro T]

For whatever it's worth, Tavares says Eichel is elite.

[dudacek]

It’s been pretty well established that he is the best in the league at entries.

How many players can control the puck under pressure the way Jack can in the offensive zone? Tavares can’t. Matthews can’t. Not Bergeron or Barkov. His combination of strength and puckhandling is Jagr-esque. That play on Muzzin yesterday...

[Thorner]

9 game streak. 8g 8a. 

Teams continually matching their best against him, and he continues to come out on top. 

He’s elite, folks. He’s there. 

[dudacek]

44 minutes ago, Thorny said:

9 game streak. 8g 8a. 

Teams continually matching their best against him, and he continues to come out on top. 

He’s elite, folks. He’s there. 

The way he shook off Tavares while Johnny was giving him everything he could...

[Thorner]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The way he shook off Tavares while Johnny was giving him everything he could...

He deserves playoffs. I crave seeing it.

[Zamboni]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

He deserves playoffs. I crave seeing it.

If he (and the team) earns it. He’ll be there. And it will be a sight for sore eyes. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

9 game streak. 8g 8a. 

Teams continually matching their best against him, and he continues to come out on top. 

He’s elite, folks. He’s there. 

It's been said by others, but his career seems to track MacKinnon's pretty closely. 

If McClavicle and MacKinnon came in the league respectively when the other did, Eichel'd likely be better appreciated as he wouldn't perpetually be compared to the 1 guy playing today who could end up better than Crosby.

[Doohicksie]

58 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

If he (and the team) earns it. He’ll be there. And it will be a sight for sore eyes. 

If the Sabres had won in OT, they'd actually be in a playoff spot right now.  They are currently 4th in the division, a point behind Toronto.

[Thorner]

15 hours ago, Taro T said:

It's been said by others, but his career seems to track MacKinnon's pretty closely. 

If McClavicle and MacKinnon came in the league respectively when the other did, Eichel'd likely be better appreciated as he wouldn't perpetually be compared to the 1 guy playing today who could end up better than Crosby.

I’ve been hearing this a lot lately as the topic of Eichel has come up more in day-to-day hockey talk. You are of course correct, but the whole sentiment is getting agitating at this point, to be honest. 

Nearly every time he’s brought up it’s, well, “people just don’t know he’s that good” and “well he’s overshadowed by McDavid”. Like, really? At some point more should be expected for fans of the game at large. The stats, highlights, games are out there. 

People can and should just view Eichel for what he is. I know, the Sabres struggle to get national coverage, haven’t made the playoffs, etc. But it’s 2019. People are on their phones all the time anyways and this stuff is a click away. 

Not really much to do with your post, just ranting. I had someone legitimately arguing with me that Joe Flacco of all people is more of an elite player within his sport than Jack Eichel is, yesterday. 

“He’s merely the best player on a bad team” was the refrain. As if Eichel’s talent and production don’t deserve their place within a league wide conversation of the game’s stand-out players. 

I know, hopefully when they start making the playoffs it changes. But he should be getting more recognition now. Obviously my view is somewhat anecdotal, as well. Many of the people I converse with are purely Jets fans and pay little attention to the league at large. 

 

[inkman]

Can someone shoot this thread into the sun?  

 

I think I'm going to go live in a cave and eat bugs.  Sounds much better than arguing if a guy playing a kids game is playing well enough to be considered a completely subjective term. Buh-bye.