Reinhart, sign him or trade him?

[Brawndo]

15 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Victor Olofsson is bad at 5v5 and Jeff Skinner can't score. 

As for trading Reinhart, I am not opposed to the idea but you gotta hope they get that right because there's 25g and 60pts off the roster... it is like ROR and if you just get 2 JAGs, a Middling Prospect, and a pick... you're setting your team back again. 

A change of scenery trade Matt Tkatchuk for Reinhart as the center pieces, would be one type that I would consider 

[Thorner]

16 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

A change of scenery trade Matt Tkatchuk for Reinhart as the center pieces, would be one type that I would consider 

Same.

Though for me if we swing a hockey trade like that, it makes the "addition" we want this offseason for the top 6 necessarily someone who can play on the right (which it maybe should have been, anyways.)

Thompson and KO I guess can be penciled in for the bottom 6. We were already looking for another top 6 RW besides Reinhart, so if we move him, even if we switch VO over to the right, that leaves one top 6 spot on the right side. 

Actually, in writing this post I'm already kinda getting cold feet at the idea of moving Sam for a left winger - half the reason I have any sort of confidence re: centre heading into next season is the presence of Reinhart. To play there, if one or both of Cozens or Mittelstadt can't. Where does that leave us if we trade Sam? Should we shift Cozens to right wing, right off the bat, and place all our hope in Casey Mittelstadt as the 2C? Should the top 6 addition be a centre, with Cozens still shifting to wing? I struggle to believe in the likelihood of us adding a top 6 C to this team, when it's a transaction of the type we haven't seen since we traded for ROR moments before drafting Eichel, 6 years ago. 

Both of those potential solutions also pretty much necessitate Cozens being scheduled for wing duty as part of the base plan - an idea I don't really like as I want him playing centre if he can handle it. He's still the organization's best shot at a long-term 2C. 

A hockey trade like the one proposed that runs arguably counter to our current positional needs could definitely work, but I hope this franchise is ready to pay attention to roster positional imbalance at this point which they haven't really done since Botterill overloaded the right side of the D to the detriment of the overall roster. It's not the biggest thing but a team looking to improve from last to playoffs needs to focus on any avenue for improvement (or potential decline) it can. 

[Marvin]

I really, really don't want to trade Reinhart.  But I don't know if the Sabres can pay his market value.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I really, really don't want to trade Reinhart.  But I don't know if the Sabres can pay his market value.

It would be a bit funny admittedly if Botterill both traded away our current 2C at the time, ROR, and ensured our future 2C (Reinhart?)'s departure by bridging him and paving his way to UFA, instead of locking him up. That's burning it down and then proceeding to salt the earth to a new level.

I don't think timeline mattered very much to Botterill. He was content with trying to fill the 2C spot with the draft. Which, to his credit, it may turn out he did, eventually. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Thorny

[pi2000]

Reinhart and ROR are not even close besides the number of goals they score they're completely different players.

[inkman]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Reinhart and ROR are not even close besides the number of goals they score they're completely different players.

ROR sans beard is much closer to Sam than people want to acknowledge 

Just now, inkman said:

ROR sans beard is much closer to Sam than people want to acknowledge 

Dude went a whole season without committing a penalty.  Not exactly Brad Marchand. 

[Thorner]

21 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Reinhart and ROR are not even close besides the number of goals they score they're completely different players.

Agree. ROR is a bona fide above-average 1C and Sam Reinhart is a 1RW, and capable fill-in 2C.

18 minutes ago, inkman said:

ROR sans beard is much closer to Sam than people want to acknowledge 

Dude went a whole season without committing a penalty.  Not exactly Brad Marchand. 

Maybe Sam's hair. 

Edit - whoops, didn't see "sans" lol

Edited May 3, 2021 by Thorny

[pi2000]

Just now, Thorny said:

Agree. ROR is a bona fide above-average 1C and Sam Reinhart is a middling 1RW, and semi-capable fill-in 2C.

Fixed

ROR excels in all areas faceoffs, PK, defense.  If he's not scoring he's still a very effective player.

 Reinhart is one dimensional... historically bad at faceoffs, can't defend or kill penalties.  If he's not scoring, he's a liability.

[Thorner]

11 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Fixed

ROR excels in all areas faceoffs, PK, defense.  If he's not scoring he's still a very effective player.

 Reinhart is one dimensional... historically bad at faceoffs, can't defend or kill penalties.  If he's not scoring, he's a liability.

Reinhart isn't one dimensional. You are arbitrarily selecting the things you count as "dimensions". He is obviously good offensively, which can be divided up into several categories or dimensions, but he's also excellent in transition. His affect on Eichel in the neutral zone is this regard is considerable. I also don't believe defense to be an area absent from his game. It's not a strength, but to me not a glaring weakness, either. 

If by "middling" you mean "average" 1RW, I won't haggle you on that even if this season Reinhart statistically comes in at above average in that regard. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Thorny

[SwampD]

ROR wasn’t the 1C when he was a Sabre. I don’t believe he was even the 1C when St. Louis won the cup.

Just sayin.

[Thorner]

Just now, SwampD said:

ROR wasn’t the 1C when he was a Sabre. I don’t believe he was even the 1C when St. Louis won the cup.

Just sayin.

He absolutely was the 1C in usage while a Sabre. regardless of where we listed him in our line configurations. It also doesn't even matter - is Malkin not a 1C?

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, SwampD said:

ROR wasn’t the 1C when he was a Sabre. I don’t believe he was even the 1C when St. Louis won the cup.

Just sayin.

Just checked and ROR lead all Blues forwards in average ice time in the playoff run so he was also their 1C, as well. 

[Doohicksie]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Is it possible that he's simply skinnering us? 

If it max's his trade value (and I hope it does) I think it's the moment to trade him. I do not think it's a good idea to long term anybody with max value from the loser core. One Skinner albatross is more than enough. 

Maybe he's Staffording us.  I don't know.

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

He absolutely was the 1C in usage while a Sabre. regardless of where we listed him in our line configurations. It also doesn't even matter - is Malkin not a 1C?

Maybe. I’d have to see him in that role to be sure.

[LGR4GM]

Reinhart's faceoff percentage in the last 10 games (figure we should start there since it is a learned skill). 

110 faceoffs. 56 wins, 54 losses.

50.91 faceoff%

SAm rEiNHaRt suKs AT fAcoFfS

 

Reinhart if you go back 15 games:

153 faceoffs, 73 wins, 80 losses

47.71%

[Weave]

4 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Maybe. I’d have to see him in that role to be sure.

He’s seen that role alot.  Crosby hasn’t exactly been an ironman over his career.

Ginos 1C level for sure.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Weave

[pi2000]

51 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Reinhart's faceoff percentage in the last 10 games (figure we should start there since it is a learned skill). 

110 faceoffs. 56 wins, 54 losses.

50.91 faceoff%

SAm rEiNHaRt suKs AT fAcoFfS

 

Reinhart if you go back 15 games:

153 faceoffs, 73 wins, 80 losses

47.71%

That's encouraging.

However... he already had a large sample size before this season and was < 40% for his career.

So... recency bias much 🙂 ?

That said I do hope he's putting the time to improve.

[Curt]

2 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Fixed

ROR excels in all areas faceoffs, PK, defense.  If he's not scoring he's still a very effective player.

 Reinhart is one dimensional... historically bad at faceoffs, can't defend or kill penalties.  If he's not scoring, he's a liability.

Have you noticed Reinhart’s distinct improvement in FO% recently?

Whoops, and then I read to the bottom of the page.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Curt

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

Doubt it. Younger than Skinner at the time of the deal, a much more well rounded, adaptable player

Yes, he can be, but all I'm wondering is will he be as motivated after signing a big deal? I know it's not popular with many here but I question his character and motivation. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, SwampD said:

ROR wasn’t the 1C when he was a Sabre. I don’t believe he was even the 1C when St. Louis won the cup.

Just sayin.

You could argue that he wasn't the St. Louis 1C in terms of being the offensive star but he got the most ice time and played against the top lines of the other teams. He went head to head with Bergeron and came out on top. 

Don't see how ROR matters though. Reinhart is no ROR and he's not a 1C. 

 

[Marvin]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yes, he can be, but all I'm wondering is will he be as motivated after signing a big deal? I know it's not popular with many here but I question his character and motivation. 

That's the risk of a big deal.  He seems to not be coasting, which is a plus.  Why do you doubt his character and motivation?

[Brawndo]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

Same.

Though for me if we swing a hockey trade like that, it makes the "addition" we want this offseason for the top 6 necessarily someone who can play on the right (which it maybe should have been, anyways.)

Thompson and KO I guess can be penciled in for the bottom 6. We were already looking for another top 6 RW besides Reinhart, so if we move him, even if we switch VO over to the right, that leaves one top 6 spot on the right side. 

Actually, in writing this post I'm already kinda getting cold feet at the idea of moving Sam for a left winger - half the reason I have any sort of confidence re: centre heading into next season is the presence of Reinhart. To play there, if one or both of Cozens or Mittelstadt can't. Where does that leave us if we trade Sam? Should we shift Cozens to right wing, right off the bat, and place all our hope in Casey Mittelstadt as the 2C? Should the top 6 addition be a centre, with Cozens still shifting to wing? I struggle to believe in the likelihood of us adding a top 6 C to this team, when it's a transaction of the type we haven't seen since we traded for ROR moments before drafting Eichel, 6 years ago. 

Both of those potential solutions also pretty much necessitate Cozens being scheduled for wing duty as part of the base plan - an idea I don't really like as I want him playing centre if he can handle it. He's still the organization's best shot at a long-term 2C. 

A hockey trade like the one proposed that runs arguably counter to our current positional needs could definitely work, but I hope this franchise is ready to pay attention to roster positional imbalance at this point which they haven't really done since Botterill overloaded the right side of the D to the detriment of the overall roster. It's not the biggest thing but a team looking to improve from last to playoffs needs to focus on any avenue for improvement (or potential decline) it can. 

Tkatchuk does drive play from the wing and if you put him with Cozens or Mitts, you’ll be ok.

Not a fan of trading him though.

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

That's the risk of a big deal.  He seems to not be coasting, which is a plus.  Why do you doubt his character and motivation?

I could turn that around and say after all these years how do you not question his character? 

I've seen too many games/shifts/plays/however you want to examine it over the years where he takes an easy out or coasts and the effort level is in question. There have been some games over those years where I felt he gave a lot and played really well but more often I've felt he rarely left it all on the ice. I know I'm not alone in that view. That perception is why he got the bridge deal when he did. 

He's talented, but I don't see maximum effort. I guess maybe I'm stuck on the image of that Detroit game where he quit on the ice and they scored with a second left. To me that moment embodied everything I dislike in him and everything that was (and maybe still is) wrong with the Sabres. 

[Marvin]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I could turn that around and say after all these years how do you not question his character? 

I've seen too many games/shifts/plays/however you want to examine it over the years where he takes an easy out or coasts and the effort level is in question. There have been some games over those years where I felt he gave a lot and played really well but more often I've felt he rarely left it all on the ice. I know I'm not alone in that view. That perception is why he got the bridge deal when he did. 

He's talented, but I don't see maximum effort. I guess maybe I'm stuck on the image of that Detroit game where he quit on the ice and they scored with a second left. To me that moment embodied everything I dislike in him and everything that was (and maybe still is) wrong with the Sabres. 

That's fair.  Thanks.  I think that he, like a lot of other players over the years, developed some really bad habits.  Whether due to the players intended to mentor him, bad character, young-and-dumb, or whatever, I have seen some of the issues you mention.

I personally think he's been doing better this year after XHCRK left and been put at centre.  That could be a mirage due to the recency effect.  It also because Eichel isn't there to bail him out in the attacking zone.

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I personally think he's been doing better this year after XHCRK left and been put at centre.  That could be a mirage due to the recency effect.  It also because Eichel isn't there to bail him out in the attacking zone.

I think so too. As much as I have issues with him I think his skill set is better deployed in his current role and we should have developed him slower to fill that role rather than making him Eichel's wingman. Maybe then he'd be better at those unimportant face offs 🙂 

So I'd pay him 6 something (less than 7) to be our 2C and send him to face off school (Don Luce available? 🙂 ) but he doesn't get a NMC under any circumstances.