Reinhart, sign him or trade him?

[I-90 W]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It's almost seems that you are afraid that he could prove his critics wrong and earn a roster spot. I don't know how he is going to show in training camp. For the most part the roster is close to being set before camp begins with the primary purpose of the camp is to work out the combinations and roles. But camp is also there for a segment of the players to compete and earn roster spots. If he earns a spot he earns a spot. If he doesn't earn a spot then he doesn't earn a spot. If the staff believes that sending him to Rochester will enhance his development then he should be sent to Rochester. So what's the issue? 

Afraid he will prove his critics wrong? No, I’m not against him in any way (which would be ridiculous). I’m just a Sabres fan who watched everyone thrust him into being our 2C stop gap too quickly. I don’t want to see his development get botched further.

Would it be nice to see a top 10 draft pick from 3 years ago contribute to our team? Yeah obviously of course. But I think he needs another year in Rochester first. 

[LGR4GM]

I also want to see him in Rochester all year, but again the question was what if he makes the roster?

[I-90 W]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

I also want to see him in Rochester all year, but again the question was what if he makes the roster?

Glad we both agree on that. I guess what I’m trying to say is that they won’t let him make the roster, essentially. Last season he had 9 points in 31 games (NHL) and 25 points in 36 games (AHL).
 

Considering how amazing he was in Word Junior I don’t see them rushing him again. Hoping they learned from rushing him. He should get top minutes in the AHL for a full season. 

[I-90 W]

It’s also my understanding that even as an RFA he isn’t eligible to receive an offer sheet from any other teams because he didn’t play enough NHL games during his ELC. Sabres have all the negotiating power with him. I anticipate they will let him slow cook in Rochester with top minutes for a full season. 
 

Really hoping his recent uptick in productivity will continue and we will see him here in 2022.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I also want to see him in Rochester all year, but again the question was what if he makes the roster?

Unless Thompson absolutely sucks, it would be at the expense of Cozens or less likely Lazar or Rieder.

Which is entirely possible. We all think Cozens is ready but that doesn’t mean he is.

Adams, very specifically said he intends to leave space on the roster for prospects if they earn it and you can see it in the way the roster is constructed.

There is an obvious spot In the starting 12 being dangled for Thompson Cozens Casey Arttu, Asplund, or whoever to fight over. And Lazar and Reider have contracts that leave them open to losing their jobs, either in the starting lineup, or as the 13th man.

Same on D where Irwin is the tentative 7th man, but is entirely vulnerable should a Borgen or someone else force their way on to the roster.

[pi2000]

He puts up middling first line point totals (17th in points for RW'ers), he brings few intangibles.     

He doesn't skate particularly well, he's not fast agile or quick.

His shot is below average, isn't a physical presence, averages about 20-25 goals/season.

For a guy who's been touted to have elite hockey sense and vision, he's averaging just over 30 assists/season... getting ample PP1 time and playing alongside Eichel that's underwhelming.

For $6-7mil you can do better... Maybe you sacrifice a few goals, but I'd rather they invest that money in a more complete player who brings more to the table.

[LGR4GM]

46 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

He puts up middling first line point totals (17th in points for RW'ers), he brings few intangibles.     

He doesn't skate particularly well, he's not fast agile or quick.

His shot is below average, isn't a physical presence, averages about 20-25 goals/season.

For a guy who's been touted to have elite hockey sense and vision, he's averaging just over 30 assists/season... getting ample PP1 time and playing alongside Eichel that's underwhelming.

For $6-7mil you can do better... Maybe you sacrifice a few goals, but I'd rather they invest that money in a more complete player who brings more to the table.

[Zamboni]

Obvious is obvious ...

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, pi2000 said:

He puts up middling first line point totals (17th in points for RW'ers), he brings few intangibles.     

He doesn't skate particularly well, he's not fast agile or quick.

His shot is below average, isn't a physical presence, averages about 20-25 goals/season.

For a guy who's been touted to have elite hockey sense and vision, he's averaging just over 30 assists/season... getting ample PP1 time and playing alongside Eichel that's underwhelming.

For $6-7mil you can do better... Maybe you sacrifice a few goals, but I'd rather they invest that money in a more complete player who brings more to the table.

.....but he puts up average first line production, like you said. So, he's mediocre or bad at everything, yet he puts up the production. He statistically drives play. So, does the other stuff even matter? Isn't it about results, and not style points?

I understand the argument where maybe you want to replace him with someone who fits what the team is trying to do stylistically, if you think they are trying to play a specific style of game, but we all agree production still needs to be the priority, right? If you think you can do better for 6 or 7 million, go ahead and switch him out for a player who better fits the apple of your eye, but that player better be a bona fide first line producer. 

On another note, "Intangibles" is pointlessly vague and meaningless. Sam's durability, there's a tangible positive to Sam's game. 

[mjd1001]

5 hours ago, pi2000 said:

He puts up middling first line point totals (17th in points for RW'ers), he brings few intangibles.     

He doesn't skate particularly well, he's not fast agile or quick.

His shot is below average, isn't a physical presence, averages about 20-25 goals/season.

For a guy who's been touted to have elite hockey sense and vision, he's averaging just over 30 assists/season... getting ample PP1 time and playing alongside Eichel that's underwhelming.

For $6-7mil you can do better... Maybe you sacrifice a few goals, but I'd rather they invest that money in a more complete player who brings more to the table.

I think you may have exaggerated a few of the points slightly, but part of me agrees with what you are saying.

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

.....but he puts up average first line production, like you said. So, he's mediocre or bad at everything, yet he puts up the production. He statistically drives play. So, does the other stuff even matter? Isn't it about results, and not style points?

I understand the argument where maybe you want to replace him with someone who fits what the team is trying to do stylistically, if you think they are trying to play a specific style of game, but we all agree production still needs to be the priority, right? If you think you can do better for 6 or 7 million, go ahead and switch him out for a player who better fits the apple of your eye, but that player better be a bona fide first line producer. 

On another note, "Intangibles" is pointlessly vague and meaningless. Sam's durability, there's a tangible positive to Sam's game. 

It's not about style.

If the Sabres were on the brink of a Cup run, then yeah, pay the guy simply for what he brings to the stat sheet.

However, fact is, they're nowhere near that.   At this point they need well rounded players who play a more complete game in all areas of the ice (strong on the puck, defends well, skates well, speed+quickness, physical, puck hound)... Reinhart isn't that guy.    For that amount of money he should excel at something (shooting, setup guy), or do many more things better. 

I've yet to hear any of his apologists clearly state what it is that he excels at... what is it about his skillset/game that elevates him above somebody that makes $4-5m (Palmieri, C. White, R. Smith, Sutter, Lindholm) ?     IMO any of those guys would be just as productive in that spot.

I'd pay him $5-5.5, max.   

Edited October 22, 2020 by pi2000

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

It's not about style.

If the Sabres were on the brink of a Cup run, then yeah, pay the guy simply for what he brings to the stat sheet.

However, fact is, they're nowhere near that.   At this point they need well rounded players who play a more complete game in all areas of the ice (strong on the puck, defends well, skates well, speed+quickness, physical, puck hound)... Reinhart isn't that guy.    For that amount of money he should excel at something (shooting, setup guy), or do many more things better. 

I've yet to hear any of his apologists clearly state what it is that he excels at... what is it about his skillset/game that elevates him above somebody that makes $4-5m (Palmieri, C. White, R. Smith, Sutter, Lindholm) ?     IMO any of those guys would be just as productive in that spot.

I'd pay him $5-5.5, max.   

Oh bully. 

I'm honestly so tired of reading this. Why not? Why can't we go on a cup run next season? We have one of the best players in his prime right now, it's not going to get any *easier*. With Taylor Hall, Reinhart, Skinner, Olofsson, Staal...best top 6 in the league is an actual possibility. 

What if Dahlin takes a Heiskanen-like jump? Would that be so unlikely? If we can bring in a goalie, I see no reason why we can't start bumping up these expectations and get the runs started now. 

[Thorner]

22 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

It's not about style.

If the Sabres were on the brink of a Cup run, then yeah, pay the guy simply for what he brings to the stat sheet.

However, fact is, they're nowhere near that.   At this point they need well rounded players who play a more complete game in all areas of the ice (strong on the puck, defends well, skates well, speed+quickness, physical, puck hound)... Reinhart isn't that guy.    For that amount of money he should excel at something (shooting, setup guy), or do many more things better. 

I've yet to hear any of his apologists clearly state what it is that he excels at... what is it about his skillset/game that elevates him above somebody that makes $4-5m (Palmieri, C. White, R. Smith, Sutter, Lindholm) ?     IMO any of those guys would be just as productive in that spot.

I'd pay him $5-5.5, max.   

Because it doesn't matter. Reinhart is producing first line results already. The burden of proof is on you - prove why he *isn't* worthy of being paid like a top line winger when he produces like one. 

Listing things he isn't good at don't strengthen your argument when those things are a *means to an end*. You hope a player excels in those areas because they often lead to results. If Reinhart was the worst skater of all time, with the weakest shot ever, yet possessed some unnamable trait that allowed him to produce to the level he has, driving play, being sound defensively, you take him, because he gets the results. 

You argue against Reinhart as if he's a prospect and you are unsure his non-NHL stats are going to transfer to the big leagues, pointing to what he lacks as reason to predict nothing from him. 

He's already done it - Reinhart is a bonafide first line talent. Trade him - but you need to bring back a bonafide first line talent. 

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Thorny

[SwampD]

I said 7 for 7 before Covid.

I'll say 6.5 for 7 now.

I'd be happy with that.

If he had a little more nasty, I'd be fine with going back up to 7.

[miles]

41 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I said 7 for 7 before Covid.

I'll say 6.5 for 7 now.

I'd be happy with that.

If he had a little more nasty, I'd be fine with going back up to 7.

 

6.5m to 7m. 

 

How much did max domi sign for 5.5m

Edited October 23, 2020 by miles

[Curt]

1 minute ago, miles said:

6.5m to 7m. 

How much did max domi sign for 5.5m

5.5M for 2 years only, walking him directly to UFA ASAP.

If Reinhart signed for 2 years, I would expect a similar number.  If Reinhart signs long term, I would expect something more like $6.5-7M.

 

[miles]

My mistake. I read it as 6.5 to 7. Not 6.5 for 7

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by miles

[7+6=13]

Serious question.  Does signing Sam to a over 5.5 to get to a long term deal, limit the ability to sign Hall should both sides be interested in that?

[Zamboni]

12 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

Serious question.  Does signing Sam to a over 5.5 to get to a long term deal, limit the ability to sign Hall should both sides be interested in that?

Theres too many unknowns ...

IF Hall has a good year with little to no injuries.

IF Hall even wants to sign a multi year deal with the Sabres.

IF what Hall would request as a salary is in the ballpark of reality or what the Sabres are willing to pay him.

And then repeat the same IF’s for Reinhart.

Too many unknowns....

[pi2000]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

Because it doesn't matter. Reinhart is producing first line results already. The burden of proof is on you - prove why he *isn't* worthy of being paid like a top line winger when he produces like one. 

Listing things he isn't good at don't strengthen your argument when those things are a *means to an end*. You hope a player excels in those areas because they often lead to results. If Reinhart was the worst skater of all time, with the weakest shot ever, yet possessed some unnamable trait that allowed him to produce to the level he has, driving play, being sound defensively, you take him, because he gets the results. 

You argue against Reinhart as if he's a prospect and you are unsure his non-NHL stats are going to transfer to the big leagues, pointing to what he lacks as reason to predict nothing from him. 

He's already done it - Reinhart is a bonafide first line talent. Trade him - but you need to bring back a bonafide first line talent. 

 

Wrong, the burden of proof is on you, kind sir, to prove that he's worth $7m.   IMO most of his points are because he plays with Eichel... when he's not with him he's practically invisible.   You talk about him "driving play"... that's some weak nonsense...    Eichel drives play, Sam is just along for the ride.   

His skating is below average, he's slow (by today's standards), his shot is weak and inaccurate, he scores most of his goals picking up trash within a 3ft radius of the net.

Eichel was a +5 last year... Sam?  Try minus 15... how is that even possible playing with Jack.. I don't even know.  

Look, I'm not saying Reinhart is trash.. he's a decent middle 6 winger that deserves about $4-5m/yr.  He has good hands around the net, good at deflections, can make a slick pass here and there, but he's just too helter skelter for my liking.   He's not the guy I'd invest in heavily to be Jack's long term wingman.   Do better.

[SwampD]

Sam played plenty without Eichel.

It’s funny what people want to remember.

[Broken Ankles]

45 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Sam played plenty without Eichel.

It’s funny what people want to remember.

Jack and Sam played almost 1000 minutes together.  Sam played only 106 away from Jack (5v5).   For reference Point and Kuch played 760 together and Kuch played 197 away from Point.  In Boston, Bergeron and Pasta played 669 together but Pasta played 337 minutes away from Bergeron, albeit 10 more games.   Either way it’s a super high percentage of 5v5 TOI together.  More than most.  
 

CNN’s David Dale did a fact check of this narrative and it’s True.  They were tethered!

[steveoath]

Interesting look at his fancy stats 

https://www.expectedbuffalo.com/buffalo-sabres-myth-busting-sam-reinhart-cant-produce-without-jack-eichel/

Quote: It appears that throughout his career Eichel becomes more of a goal scorer when he’s on a line with Reinhart. His goals per 60 minutes at 5 on 5 go from 0.72 to 0.85 and his assists go from 1.28 down to 0.97. 

I think the article is very fair, and justifies both keeping Jack and Sam together or splitting them. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by steveoath

[MODO Hockey]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Sam played plenty without Eichel.

It’s funny what people want to remember.

Or is it funny what you want to remember SwampD ? 🤣

1 hour ago, Broken Ankles said:

Jack and Sam played almost 1000 minutes together.  Sam played only 106 away from Jack (5v5).   For reference Point and Kuch played 760 together and Kuch played 197 away from Point.  In Boston, Bergeron and Pasta played 669 together but Pasta played 337 minutes away from Bergeron, albeit 10 more games.   Either way it’s a super high percentage of 5v5 TOI together.  More than most.  
 

CNN’s David Dale did a fact check of this narrative and it’s True.  They were tethered!

 

[LGR4GM]

5 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Wrong, the burden of proof is on you, kind sir, to prove that he's worth $7m.   IMO most of his points are because he plays with Eichel... when he's not with him he's practically invisible.   You talk about him "driving play"... that's some weak nonsense...    Eichel drives play, Sam is just along for the ride.   

His skating is below average, he's slow (by today's standards), his shot is weak and inaccurate, he scores most of his goals picking up trash within a 3ft radius of the net.

Eichel was a +5 last year... Sam?  Try minus 15... how is that even possible playing with Jack.. I don't even know.  

Look, I'm not saying Reinhart is trash.. he's a decent middle 6 winger that deserves about $4-5m/yr.  He has good hands around the net, good at deflections, can make a slick pass here and there, but he's just too helter skelter for my liking.   He's not the guy I'd invest in heavily to be Jack's long term wingman.   Do better.

Lol. Just lol. This post encapsulates in so many ways why I don't argue with you anymore. We're living in different realities.