Reinhart, sign him or trade him?

[chloewoj]

41 minutes ago, JohnC said:

As you point out by loading up the top 2 lines instead of spreading some of the talent down line you are playing your most prolific players the most minutes. It's been a long time since our second line was deemed to be a credible second line. It seems that it is now. What is most interesting is seeing how Krueger is going to construct the third line? He has some young pieces to work with. Are players like Cozens and Tage ready? I'm hoping that Kahun can be brought back into the fold and added to the mix after he scans the market. 

cozens and thompson are ready. cozens was far and away one of the most dominant players in the WHL last season with lethbridge and he should be able to translate that into the NHL smoothly. before his injury, thompson was showing glimpses of NHL readiness and he has make significant strides in his game. if kahun can be brought back to the sabres (i really hope he is) then the third line is set. kahun - thompson - cozens. i know many people, including myself, don't love thompson at center because he likes to play the game more forced to the outside and down along the boards but it'll just have to work for now (or until cozens is ready to shift from wing to center). 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, chloewoj said:

cozens and thompson are ready. cozens was far and away one of the most dominant players in the WHL last season with lethbridge and he should be able to translate that into the NHL smoothly. before his injury, thompson was showing glimpses of NHL readiness and he has make significant strides in his game. if kahun can be brought back to the sabres (i really hope he is) then the third line is set. kahun - thompson - cozens. i know many people, including myself, don't love thompson at center because he likes to play the game more forced to the outside and down along the boards but it'll just have to work for now (or until cozens is ready to shift from wing to center). 

The model on how to play Cozens is the Chicago example on how they handled Kirby Dack. They started off playing this talented rookie on the wing and then at the end of the season he comfortably eased into the center spot.

I agree with you that Thompson did show glimpses that he can play in the league. The lesson that should be learned with him is that getting extensive playing time in Rochester enhances development while playing a young player before he is ready retards his development. With respect to whether Thompson should be a winger or center my answer is I'm not sure? That's what training camps are there to learn.

I'm aware that Kahun had a short stint with us last year but I liked what I saw. He is skilled and he can skate. I hope we can get him back. In a compressed schedule where injuries are more likely adding to the talent base is a necessity. 

[dudacek]

Only way I see Kahun back on the Sabres is if Reinhart is traded for help in goal or defence and the trade creates some space.

He's not suited to any kind of grinder role, and it's pretty clear they prefer Thompson and Cozens in their depth scoring roles.

***

Separately, but related: whatever line Cody Eakin centres will be the third line, whether it is a pure checking line, energy line or 2ndary scoring line.

This is the reason he was brought in here and his minutes will reflect that.

Edited October 21, 2020 by dudacek

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Only way I see Kahun back on the Sabres is if Reinhart is traded for help in goal or defence and the trade creates some space.

He's not suited to any kind of grinder role, and it's pretty clear they prefer Thompson and Cozens in their depth scoring roles.

***

Separately, but related: whatever line Cody Eakin centres will be the third line, whether it is a pure checking line, energy line or 2ndary scoring line.

This is the reason he was brought in here and his minutes will reflect that.

Odds are that Kahun will not be brought back because as you stated he doesn't fit the grinder mold. But that doesn't mean that his skating speed and skill level couldn't be utilized on this roster. Although he is certainly not a thumper he does add speed to this lineup, something this staff felt was a necessity. And it should be noted that Adams did say that he told the player's agent that they liked him as a player but not at his asking price. My heart says go back and get him while my head says it won't be done. 

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Only way I see Kahun back on the Sabres is if Reinhart is traded for help in goal or defence and the trade creates some space.

He's not suited to any kind of grinder role, and it's pretty clear they prefer Thompson and Cozens in their depth scoring roles.

***

Separately, but related: whatever line Cody Eakin centres will be the third line, whether it is a pure checking line, energy line or 2ndary scoring line.

This is the reason he was brought in here and his minutes will reflect that.

To the bolded: definitely.  

And that's why I'm leaning towards the expectation that he'll start out centering Larsson's line.  Expecting that Cozens & Thompson will be eased into action.  Lazar (or Girgensons should Reider or other force his way into the lineup bumping Lazar to 13) will be the 4th C by ice time & usage.  Seeing Cozens & Tage getting the least 5v5 minutes early on & moving up if they earn the ice time.

[Taro T]

Just now, JohnC said:

Odds are that Kahun will not be brought back because as you stated he doesn't fit the grinder mold. But that doesn't mean that his skating speed and skill level couldn't be utilized on this roster. Although he is certainly not a thumper he does add speed to this lineup, something this staff felt was a necessity. And it should be noted that Adams did say that he told the player's agent that they liked him as a player but not at his asking price. My heart says go back and get him while my head says it won't be done. 

At this point, am expecting the only way he's back is if it's on a low NHL $ contract that's set up as a 1 way deal so he can start the year in Ra-cha-cha & then be the 1st call up when an offensive player gets injured. 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

At this point, am expecting the only way he's back is if it's on a low NHL $ contract that's set up as a 1 way deal so he can start the year in Ra-cha-cha & then be the 1st call up when an offensive player gets injured. 

Another player I see playing in Rochester and eventually moving up to Buffalo is Arttu Ruotsalainen. He like Olofsson who needed the extended play in the AHL to prepare for the style of play in the smaller rinks in the NHL. If some of our young players in the system do move up in the system it will help from both a talent standpoint and a cap standpoint. 

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Odds are that Kahun will not be brought back because as you stated he doesn't fit the grinder mold. But that doesn't mean that his skating speed and skill level couldn't be utilized on this roster. Although he is certainly not a thumper he does add speed to this lineup, something this staff felt was a necessity. And it should be noted that Adams did say that he told the player's agent that they liked him as a player but not at his asking price. My heart says go back and get him while my head says it won't be done. 

I'm sure Adams would have circled back to him had they not signed Hall. But right now there is no cap space for him.

As important, right now there is no roster spot for him in the starting 12

Think about it like the coach is:

• He's not taking one of the top three centre slots.
• He's not pushing Reinhart Olofsson Skinner or Hall out of the top six wing slots.
• He's not going to be used in a bottom six grinding role ahead of Girgs, OK, Lazar or Reider.
• He's not going to be a special teams, faceoff or tough guy specialist.

Kahun is a complementary middle six offensive player. The only guys he can challenge are Thompson and Cozens. He might be a better hockey player right now. But the other two are bigger and faster and probably have more upside. And they were cheaper.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Another player I see playing in Rochester and eventually moving up to Buffalo is Arttu Ruotsalainen. He like Olofsson who needed the extended play in the AHL to prepare for the style of play in the smaller rinks in the NHL. If some of our young players in the system do move up in the system it will help from both a talent standpoint and a cap standpoint. 

Yeah, Arttu is the guy whose name was butchered in my earlier post identifying guys that hopefully will at least challenge for an NHL job.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

While Reider MAY beat out Thompson, they're giving Baby Giraffe twice what Reider will get paid.  Tage will, if healthy, be pencilled into the lineup when camp opens & unless he is severely outplayed will also be in the opening night lineup.  Pretty sure there are several other errors with that lineup, but that 1 is glaring.

Not necessarily. Remember Kreuger put  Vlad up with Skinner and Johanson. he likes that 3rd guy being defensively responsible idea for balance. That could be Reider, letting  Olofsson focus more on offense.

Tage could be penciled in as Kyle's eventual replacement. If he is good enough he will be in the line up but I think the veteran gets first crack. 

[dudacek]

31 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Remember Kreuger put  Vlad up with Skinner and Johanson. he likes that 3rd guy being defensively responsible idea for balance. That could be Reider, letting  Olofsson focus more on offense.

This is something to consider: three lines he can depend on in both ends and a 4th line of situational guys might have lot of utility in terms of the matchups Ralph always talks about.

We got a sense of some of Ralph's tendencies last year, but it always felt like he was coaching to cover his holes. This team is more built to his preferences.

[Thorner]

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I read on nhl.com the early projection is:

Hall-Eichel-Reinhart

Skinner-Staal-Cozens

Reider-Eakins-Olofsson

Girgensens-Lazar-Okposo

Krueger was quoted as saying the plan was to play Hall with Eichel. 

6 or 7 million dollars worth I guess.   Impossible to say who it'd be for, but it would have to be value. 

 

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

While Reider MAY beat out Thompson, they're giving Baby Giraffe twice what Reider will get paid.  Tage will, if healthy, be pencilled into the lineup when camp opens & unless he is severely outplayed will also be in the opening night lineup.  Pretty sure there are several other errors with that lineup, but that 1 is glaring.

Ya, those lineups they do on the main site are always sort of just basic, and filled with inconsistencies. The lineup projections we do around here are more in depth/cognizant of the things we are hearing from the organization, and thus more accurate.

I highly doubt Olofsson isn't in the top 6, and with Eichel, which pushes Cozens down. Maybe Reinhart plays on the top line but I think they balance it out a bit and he plays on line 2. Agree with your assessment re: Thompson/Rieder, too. 

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

Definitely.

My expectation is that Eakins centers Girgensons & Okposo & that line gets used as a traditional 3rd checking line.  Which leaves the 4th line as Thompson-Lazar-Cozens as a more recently predominant youth & ST's line as Lazar will be on the PK & the other 2 on the 2nd PP unit.

But, could also see them putting the kids w/ Eakins & Lazar getting Larsson's wingers & those 2 lines getting used similarly (but w/ less ice time for the "youth" line than the RAV line got) to how Ruff used the 3rd & 4th lines back in the Golisano era's heyday.

Hopefully Mittelstadt & Asplund, Smith, &/or Ruutsaleinen are ready to challenge as well so that we see some real competition in camp throughout all 4 lines.  Having to place NHLers in Ra-cha-cha is not a bad problem.  Only took about 7 years to get back to that point upfront.  The D had a couple like that last year.  When we finally have guys that won't get crushed in the show between the pipes in Ra-cha-cha as well, they'll be a real NHL franchise again.

Would be awesome to see them having to sweat out sending Reider down because Mittelstadt or Smith forced their hand. 

The bolded however I don't see happening. Two rookies and a 13th man is not a line I want to see, and not how we should be breaking Cozens in. Eakin has the distant offensive pedigree, and hopefully the veteran savvy, to mesh with Thompson and Cozens in a way I think will work better (the other option you referred to) - but we'll have to see. 

[Taro T]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

Ya, those lineups they do on the main site are always sort of just basic, and filled with inconsistencies. The lineup projections we do around here are more in depth/cognizant of the things we are hearing from the organization, and thus more accurate.

I highly doubt Olofsson isn't in the top 6, and with Eichel, which pushes Cozens down. Maybe Reinhart plays on the top line but I think they balance it out a bit and he plays on line 2. Agree with your assessment re: Thompson/Rieder, too. 

The bolded however I don't see happening. Two rookies and a 13th man is not a line I want to see, and not how we should be breaking Cozens in. Eakin has the distant offensive pedigree, and hopefully the veteran savvy, to mesh with Thompson and Cozens in a way I think will work better (the other option you referred to) - but we'll have to see. 

As you say, we shall see.

[Thorner]

31 minutes ago, Taro T said:

As you say, we shall see.

I also dislike lines with all left shots or all right shots. It's a twitch. 

[JohnC]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

I'm sure Adams would have circled back to him had they not signed Hall. But right now there is no cap space for him.

As important, right now there is no roster spot for him in the starting 12

Think about it like the coach is:

• He's not taking one of the top three centre slots.
• He's not pushing Reinhart Olofsson Skinner or Hall out of the top six wing slots.
• He's not going to be used in a bottom six grinding role ahead of Girgs, OK, Lazar or Reider.
• He's not going to be a special teams, faceoff or tough guy specialist.

Kahun is a complementary middle six offensive player. The only guys he can challenge are Thompson and Cozens. He might be a better hockey player right now. But the other two are bigger and faster and probably have more upside. And they were cheaper.

What you are starting to see with the Sabres that hasn't happened in a long time is that players are now more likely to be properly line slotted to their talent levels and roles. For too long players were playing above their actual line capabilities resulting in negative matchups.  To state the obvious what has changed this dynamic is having better players.  Without a doubt there still needs to be some roster reshaping but it should be acknowledged that this roster is starting to be built up the right way. It seemed that with Botterill there was an emphasis in adding talent while under the Krueger influence there is more forethought into properly fitting the pieces together. 

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

I'm sure Adams would have circled back to him had they not signed Hall. But right now there is no cap space for him.

As important, right now there is no roster spot for him in the starting 12

Think about it like the coach is:

• He's not taking one of the top three centre slots.
• He's not pushing Reinhart Olofsson Skinner or Hall out of the top six wing slots.
• He's not going to be used in a bottom six grinding role ahead of Girgs, OK, Lazar or Reider.
• He's not going to be a special teams, faceoff or tough guy specialist.

Kahun is a complementary middle six offensive player. The only guys he can challenge are Thompson and Cozens. He might be a better hockey player right now. But the other two are bigger and faster and probably have more upside. And they were cheaper.

Clearly they didn't think so, but I'd say he could challenge VO, too, and for cheaper. He's a better ES player at this point in time, IMO. I'd go with VO, but having Kahun above wouldn't be an unheard of evaluation, when we start getting into things like points per 60. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

On 10/20/2020 at 10:03 AM, chloewoj said:

most people would disagree with this but i feel like sam could drive his own line. the sabres just need to give him a chance to do so. people feel like he can't because he has been sheltered by eichel for pretty much his entire career and we really haven't seen him away from jack. sam has the skills to drive his own line. he knows how to generate plays off the rush, he has the passing ability that can set players up, and he knows how to finish. if you put sam at center and gave him two solid wingers (olofsson, cozens, skinner, etc) he would be able to drive that line to high point production. 

 

On 10/20/2020 at 11:21 AM, dudacek said:

 

If Sam plays with Staal and Skinner this year — which is likely — he will drive that line from the wing.

 

20 hours ago, chloewoj said:

i'm 100% a fan of loading up the top 6...i love the idea of putting out 2 lines loaded up with big dogs and giving them big minutes so there's a constant scoring threat on the ice. then again, adding reinhart to the third line could transform this roster from 2 solid lines to 3 solid lines (and honestly it could be 4 solid lines if the 4th line continues to dominate). both are very good options for the sabres. if i had to speculate on what krueger will do though, i would have to say loading up on the top 6.

I like the idea of Reinhart on the third line to give it It some a player who is solid defensively for coverage. 
 

Eakin had his greatest success on a line with Tuch and Pacioretty, with the later being the line’s driver. 
 

Thompson-Eakin-Reinhart is the closest the Sabres could come to that right now. 
 

Hall-Eichel-Olofsson

Skinner-Staal-Cozens 

Thompson-Eakin-Reinhart 

Zemgus-Lazar-Okposo 

Looks pretty good. Now imagine if they would have kept Larsson. 

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I read on nhl.com the early projection is:

Hall-Eichel-Reinhart

Skinner-Staal-Cozens

Reider-Eakins-Olofsson

Girgensens-Lazar-Okposo

Krueger was quoted as saying the plan was to play Hall with Eichel. 

6 or 7 million dollars worth I guess.   Impossible to say who it'd be for, but it would have to be value. 

If this line is a thing, opposing coaches will enjoy putting their Top Line out and watching skate all over the OZ, until they invariably score. 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

This is something to consider: three lines he can depend on in both ends and a 4th line of situational guys might have lot of utility in terms of the matchups Ralph always talks about.

We got a sense of some of Ralph's tendencies last year, but it always felt like he was coaching to cover his holes. This team is more built to his preferences.

If Reider and Eakins are also the primary PK guys it'll mean Olofsson misses some shifts, or perhaps is the extra guy for the 2nd PP unit. 

I think the bolded part is spot on. 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, Thorny said:

I highly doubt Olofsson isn't in the top 6, and with Eichel, which pushes Cozens down.

That only happens if Cozens isn't ready or good enough yet. I'm pretty sure Cozens is the preferred option and that leaves no place in a healthy top 6 for Olofsson. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Olofsson is dealt if (stress IF) the Sabres don't like the number arbitration gives him. 

6 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Thompson-Eakin-Reinhart 

Take it to the bank. This will NEVER happen. 

[LGR4GM]

What if Mitts makes the team? It's possible he worked hard in the offseason to upgrade his skating and strength, maybe he learned enough in the AHL in 36 games to be more useful in the NHL, this is a big leap IMPO but what if he makes the team?

[I-90 W]

 

2 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

9 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

What if Mitts makes the team? It's possible he worked hard in the offseason to upgrade his skating and strength, maybe he learned enough in the AHL in 36 games to be more useful in the NHL, this is a big leap IMPO but what if he makes the team?

Surely you don’t think this is likely..

Edited October 22, 2020 by I-90 W

[JohnC]

8 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

 

Surely you don’t think this is likely..

If he earns a roster spot why not? 

[I-90 W]

5 minutes ago, JohnC said:

If he earns a roster spot why not? 

You think Mitts is going to earn a roster spot this season? I don’t see that as being likely at all. One would assume they still have to develop him further. I don’t agree that he might earn a roster spot. 

[JohnC]

Just now, I-90 W said:

You think Mitts is going to earn a roster spot this season? I don’t see that as being likely at all. One would assume they still have to develop him further. I don’t agree that he might earn a roster spot. 

It's almost seems that you are afraid that he could prove his critics wrong and earn a roster spot. I don't know how he is going to show in training camp. For the most part the roster is close to being set before camp begins with the primary purpose of the camp is to work out the combinations and roles. But camp is also there for a segment of the players to compete and earn roster spots. If he earns a spot he earns a spot. If he doesn't earn a spot then he doesn't earn a spot. If the staff believes that sending him to Rochester will enhance his development then he should be sent to Rochester. So what's the issue? 

[LGR4GM]

Wasn't about it being likely. Was about what happens if he does?