Reinhart, sign him or trade him?

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, sweetlou said:

I posed this question this morning to see what fans reactions would be.  The main reason was because of needing a contract after this year, do I as a fan see the Sabres being able to win with Jack, Jeff and Sam as our core group.

Since everyone keeps looking to WPG as a landing spot for Risto, could JBott package Sam with Risto and get a much larger return, while keeping the salary structure in tact.

Could we land Ehlers, Copp, and Perreault for Sam, Risto, and ERod?

 

A rare sweetlou trade in which I'd want more coming back our way. 

 

[sabremike]

13 minutes ago, #freejame said:

The Peg would take this in a heartbeat and then the rest of the league would laugh at us. 

And we have a GM who would be dumb enough to make that trade in a heartbeat, so yeah...

[Zamboni]

[Pimlach]

12 hours ago, miles said:

I dont think Sam is superstar quality that deserves a huge contract for big money. however I think if they can get him for a good money for long term than he should be kept.

He should not be on the top line though, I think he should be in second line.

I also think middlestat needs some time in the minors. Not a lot of time, but I think he was brought up a little too soon 

Last year was the time to start him in the minors.  But we traded ROR for a bunch of garbage and needed Casey to be 2C, which he still isn’t ready for. 

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

40-50 without Eichel on his line.  

The problem with Reinhart is his name should be spelled "D R A I S A I T L"

Someone go find Tim Murray and kick him in the balls.  He took the wrong guy.

Leon is a monster and worth the money/term Reinhart is going to get.  Reinhart is not.

 

 

 

 

Funny to read this.  When our tanking season started Reinhart was the consensus First Rounder.  Then Ekblad started gaining popularity.  Draisaitl certainly got in the mix for top 3 but I don’t recall many pundits calling him the #1.  I liked his size but had no clue otherwise.   

Its easy to say Murray blew it but I wonder who Edmonton would have taken with the first or second pick.  

[Curt]

4 hours ago, calti said:

It would be insanity to pay big money for Reinhart(who is a good player).

 

4 hours ago, calti said:

And how about a big name free agent? A winner with experience who may even be 'slightly' over the hill??

Umm, this is insanity.

Instead of paying Reinhart, let’s pay a big name UFA who may be over the hill?  
 

That’s a truly awful idea.

[rakish]

15 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'm almost positive that Draisaitl's production drops significantly without McDavid. A few seasons in his career you could compare his without-McDavid production's to Zemgus Girgensons', so that's a weird player to pick when your main point is playing away from Eichel. What do his actual stats look like away from Eichel? Because in limited time, his PLAY away from Eichel is pretty good, he fit in with ROR when ROR was here quite nicely, and in a small sample size with Mitts last season was dangerous.

Counter-intuitively, it's McDavid's production that relies on Draisaitl's more than the other way around. For instance, Draisaitl's points are even better than Pomminsteinvillian with Nugent Hopkins, in just 25 minutes of play. It is possible that this is highly influenced by empty net goals, as maybe that's when Draisaitl plays with Nugent Hopkins.

[Drunkard]

We should definitely keep Reinhart unless some team offered us a center of similar age and talent and I don't see that happening.

For being a so called "cap expert" though, you'd think Botterill would influence the coaches when setting up lines to not make his job negotiating contracts more difficult. Last year he let Housley keep Skinner with Eichel for most of the season in a contract year and the result was having to overpay for Skinner in money, term, and a full NMC. Now they aren't playing together and we're paying Skinner as a 40 goal scorer and he probably won't be since he isn't with Eichel. This year Reinhart is up for contract and he's letting Kreuger play him with Eichel so he's on pace for 70 points. This will lead Reinhart to getting a big deal being paid as a 70+ point player but with Buffalo's luck they'll probably move him down to line 2 next season and he'll pace for 60 points while getting paid for 70.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

19 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

We should definitely keep Reinhart unless some team offered us a center of similar age and talent and I don't see that happening.

For being a so called "cap expert" though, you'd think Botterill would influence the coaches when setting up lines to not make his job negotiating contracts more difficult. Last year he let Housley keep Skinner with Eichel for most of the season in a contract year and the result was having to overpay for Skinner in money, term, and a full NMC. Now they aren't playing together and we're paying Skinner as a 40 goal scorer and he probably won't be since he isn't with Eichel. This year Reinhart is up for contract and he's letting Kreuger play him with Eichel so he's on pace for 70 points. This will lead Reinhart to getting a big deal being paid as a 70+ point player but with Buffalo's luck they'll probably move him down to line 2 next season and he'll pace for 60 points while getting paid for 70.

But getting 60pts on the 2nd line would be more than welcome and worth the money.

[sweetlou]

14 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

A rare sweetlou trade in which I'd want more coming back our way. 

 

 

15 hours ago, #freejame said:

The Peg would take this in a heartbeat and then the rest of the league would laugh at us. 

I looked at Ehlers for Sam being an even swap.  Buffalo gets the better contract as Sam will get more than the $6 million Ehlers is signed for.  Risto and ERod for Copp and Perreault to me is a pretty even trade.   Perreault would fit better on our third line then ERod and adds another veteran guy.  Jets get a good defenseman and Sabres get another forward capable of playing center.  Maybe Jest have to throw us a 2nd rounder to compensate for Perreault's salary.

[OhMyDahlin]

On 11/18/2019 at 8:05 AM, North Buffalo said:

Separate Sam from Jack

That's worked so well before.

The Sabres need to build more good lines, not tear apart their only good line.

[Drunkard]

23 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

But getting 60pts on the 2nd line would be more than welcome and worth the money.

60 points on the second line is great, but not if he's earning $9 million or something along those lines. Skinner was a bargain last year with 40 goals for a cap hit of $5.75 million. It won't look nearly as good when they pay him $9 million for 30 goals this year. 

[calti]

22 hours ago, Curt said:

 

Umm, this is insanity.

Instead of paying Reinhart, let’s pay a big name UFA who may be over the hill?  
 

That’s a truly awful idea.

yeah getting veterans who know how to win is such a silly idea

On 11/18/2019 at 4:05 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Draisaitl over Reinhart as well. 

ok  true

[Curt]

3 minutes ago, calti said:

yeah getting veterans who know how to win is such a silly idea

You can add players who “know how to win”, good players, and also keep Reinhart.  

That’s worth a shot I guess.  Although I’m generally opposed to signing over the hill UFA’s.  If you are worried that Reinhart won’t be worth his contract, then you should be even more worried about older, big name veteran players being worth their UFA contracts, because they almost never are.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Curt

[calti]

Just now, Curt said:

You can add players who “know how to win”, good players, and also keep Reinhart.  That’s worth a shot I guess.  Although I’m generally opposed to signing over the hill UFA’s.

ok--that is reasonable...

re: over the hill free agents---i am talking slightly OTH--and of a certain type--the tougher guys

[Curt]

Just now, calti said:

ok--that is reasonable...

re: over the hill free agents---i am talking slightly OTH--and of a certain type--the tougher guys

I hear you, and I won’t argue that the team needs to be tougher/scrappier/more determined.  But slightly over the hill guys have a bad habit of becoming completely useless players before you even know it.

Truth is, they need more good players.  The forwards are awful right now, and even when fully healthy, were not good enough.

[PerreaultForever]

If we pay Reinhart, I wonder what the ratio of money to time the puck is on his stick would be? Bet it'd be the highest on the team by far. 

[Zamboni]

Good thing no one tries to figure out such a ridiculous ratio and tries to use it to backup a pro or con POV on a player.

[Randall Flagg]

12 hours ago, rakish said:

Counter-intuitively, it's McDavid's production that relies on Draisaitl's more than the other way around. For instance, Draisaitl's points are even better than Pomminsteinvillian with Nugent Hopkins, in just 25 minutes of play. It is possible that this is highly influenced by empty net goals, as maybe that's when Draisaitl plays with Nugent Hopkins.

This is from this year? I definitely haven't looked this year or even last year. I just remember that being a common hfboards point a couple years back, the Girgensons comparison.

[Thorner]

On 11/18/2019 at 7:16 AM, LGR4GM said:

It is nuts to think you can sign a player who put up 65 points last year and is on pace for 70 this year to a 5mil contract. 6mil might be crazy too. We're talking 7+ if Sammy drops another 60+ point season which seems likely.

That said, he should be running his own line as I am sick of watching him defer to Eichel. 

If not 8 mil. 

And the bolded, SERIOUSLY. Botterill even TALKED about this several times over the summer. And I don't want to hear, "well, he assembles the talent, then it's up to the coach". Enough. Botterill either needs to step in if he really wanted that, and things like it (Risto DOMINATING TOI again...) or hire a coach who's going to be on the same page. 

On 11/18/2019 at 7:27 AM, LGR4GM said:

You know what, yes trade him. I want it to happen because I have grown sick and tired of saying how good he actually is. So yes, trade him so we can create a giant hole on the right side that will take years to recover from. 

We also only have like, what, 2 right shots on the roster? So unbalanced. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorner]

On 11/18/2019 at 11:41 AM, nfreeman said:

I don't think this question can be answered in a vacuum -- i.e. I think everyone would like to keep Reino at the right price, but everyone would also trade him for the right return.  So, I would suggest assuming:

- To keep Reino, the Sabres will have to give him an 8-year deal at a minimum of $7.5MM per year (and that may be low).

- If they trade Reino, they won't be getting back a guy Reino's age who has produced as much as Reino has -- i.e. you're talking younger players/prospects/picks -- not an established star.

IMHO, Reino is a good player, but not good enough to justify the contract that it will take to keep him -- but the Sabres can't let him go either, as they need all of the talent at forward they can get, and trading him would almost certainly result in a downgrade in their forward talent at scoring. 

This unfortunate situation -- having to overpay to keep your own guys, who aren't great and who haven't produced anything for you, but who are the best you've got -- is where mismanaged teams often find themselves.  In this case, the Sabres will probably find themselves being forced to get married to Reino in part due to the ROR and KO debacles and Mitts' failure to develop, and of course the idiotic tank. 

EVERY team would re-sign Reinhart. Assuming he doesn't get vastly overpaid, it's par for the course. Reinhart is a very good player, a legitimate 1st line talent on pretty much any team, he's not just "the best we've got". What would a good team do with Reinhart? Not sign him? Trade him? We can't say the Sabres will overpay him cause it hasn't happened yet. 

I am not against trading him on principle, but the return would have to be a hockey trade, a player who is also very good, right now. You made no mention of an older player, which I think would also be possible. A Skinner aged player, say. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorner]

On 11/18/2019 at 11:54 AM, darksabre said:

I don't think Reinhart is getting 7.5 per. His comparable is Horvat, who is a real center who takes faceoffs, at 5.5 per. Sam should get 7, but 7.5 seems high for a 60 point RW. 

But Sam probably isn't a 60 point player anymore. He's likely a 70 point player, and if so, that's also a 70 points that finds itself an a constant, upward trend line since his first season in the league.  

Edited November 20, 2019 by Thorny

[Curt]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

If not 8 mil. 

And the bolded, SERIOUSLY. Botterill even TALKED about this several times over the summer. And I don't want to hear, "well, he assembles the talent, then it's up to the coach". Enough. Botterill either needs to step in if he really wanted that, and things like it (Risto DOMINATING TOI again...) or hire a coach who's going to be on the same page. 

We also only have like, what, 2 right shots on the roster? So unbalanced. 

Agree, at some point Botterill is complicate with the coaching.

[Thorner]

On 11/18/2019 at 1:44 PM, Kruppstahl said:

40-50 without Eichel on his line.  

The problem with Reinhart is his name should be spelled "D R A I S A I T L"

Someone go find Tim Murray and kick him in the balls.  He took the wrong guy.

Leon is a monster and worth the money/term Reinhart is going to get.  Reinhart is not.

 

 

 

 

Don't most good players play with other good players? Just because he hypothetically wouldn't be playing with JE doesn't mean he needs to be lining up beside Evan Rodrigues. It just so happens that'd be the case in Buffalo. 

[rakish]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

This is from this year? I definitely haven't looked this year or even last year. I just remember that being a common hfboards point a couple years back, the Girgensons comparison.

2019 almost all together
Draisaitl 4.75 pts/60 ES w/McDavid 4.54
McDavid 3.44 pts/60 ES w/Draisaitl 3.63

2018 playing 2/3 minutes together
Draisaitl  2.98 pts/60 ES w/McDavid 3.84 therefore roughly 1.8 without 
McDavid 3.36 pts/60 ES w/Draisaitl 4.24 therefore roughly 1.9 without

OK, maybe I was exaggerating