Taro T Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, rakish said: Eichel has spectacular numbers without Reinhart, but you must put the numbers in context to understand why it isn't that important. Let's say the Larsson's line is on the ice and Okposo gets tripped, it's Eichel that comes over the boards when the goaltender comes off the ice. At this point you have a fresh Eichel on a 6-5, against a tired defense who doesn't normally play very good defense (remember it's Larsson's line on the ice). There's a very good chance of Eichel scoring, but it doesn't happen because Reinhart isn't on the ice. Second situation where they don't play together. Up by 1, or better yet 2, with two minutes left. Eichel gets to play these situations, Reinhart isn't on team "'opponent's empty net." So I could give you Jack's numbers without Sam, but those numbers mean a whole lot less than what you would take them to mean, so I won't. That said, I don't think they play well together and Reinhart should be the 2C everyone craves. With you all the way until that last sentence. ? Quote
GASabresIUFAN Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) One of the hard things about this debate is peoples' thought of what an top or elite hockey player looks like. There are 31 teams in the NHL and maybe 20 elite forwards. We are fortunate to have one in Eichel. However there are 93 top line positions in the NHL and about 60 forwards to fill them. We again are fortunate to have 3 of those players in Skinner, Eichel and Reinhart. When you have these players they get paid because they are next to impossible to acquire or replace. No one in this debate says that Sam doesn't have flaws. Jack has flaws. But I'll keep asking find me a replacement at a lower price given Sam's age and production level. People keep saying we need something more then Samson. No what we need is scoring depth beyond our top 3 or 4 forwards. That will only come from developing or acquiring better centers at the 2 and 3 slots. Mitts isn't ready yet and either is Cozens. That doesn't mean they won't be over the next few years, but until then Jbot needs to fill the void he created. Edited January 27, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN 2 1 Quote
rakish Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 Just now, Taro T said: With you all the way until that last sentence. ? Think in your head what a Reinhart goal looks like, then think about what an Eichel goal looks like, ...now Olofsson... Pastrnak... Draisytl (sp?) ... Olofsson requires Eichel, Pastrnak requires 63, Reinhart goals rarely come from a play by Eichel, and Eichel goals rarely come from a play by Reinhart. I'm not saying Reinhart is bad, I'm saying they don't help each other much. I've said a number of times I think Rakru is trying to get Reinhart to move the puck better, good teams have lots of goals like Vesey's two games ago, Buffalo plays like they are counting the number of shots they get. Quote
Taro T Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 14 minutes ago, rakish said: Think in your head what a Reinhart goal looks like, then think about what an Eichel goal looks like, ...now Olofsson... Pastrnak... Draisytl (sp?) ... Olofsson requires Eichel, Pastrnak requires 63, Reinhart goals rarely come from a play by Eichel, and Eichel goals rarely come from a play by Reinhart. I'm not saying Reinhart is bad, I'm saying they don't help each other much. I've said a number of times I think Rakru is trying to get Reinhart to move the puck better, good teams have lots of goals like Vesey's two games ago, Buffalo plays like they are counting the number of shots they get. Actually, a lot of Eichel's rush goals get sprung by Reinhart. His goals from the cycle in the zone don't tend to be on the classic pass over from Sam; will give you that. But my contention is that Reinhart being on the ice instead of say a Pominville frees Jack up to do his thing in the offensive zone. Quote
rakish Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Taro T said: Actually, a lot of Eichel's rush goals get sprung by Reinhart. His goals from the cycle in the zone don't tend to be on the classic pass over from Sam; will give you that. But my contention is that Reinhart being on the ice instead of say a Pominville frees Jack up to do his thing in the offensive zone. I'll pull out Pominvvile stats if you make me Quote
Zamboni Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 If someone wants to do the legwork ... how many goals in the last season and a half from Eichel, did Reinhart have an assist on. Now visa versa. That would be interesting. Quote
MakeSabresGrr8Again Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 34 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said: So, basically, there’s at least 42 other forwards just like Samson? Never said that and won't. Quote
PerreaultForever Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, dudacek said: But you don't subscribe to that at all. You had this opinion of Reinhart when he was a 45 point scorer and it didn't change when he became a 65-point scorer. Exactly. Because as I said earlier, it's not all about points. 1 hour ago, LGR4GM said: I admit when I'm wrong. I'll bet money you and Pi won't. You'll just change the argument to something else and pretend that's what you meant all along. For the record 8mil is my cap on Reinhart because he does have limits and we should be aware of them. However I think a 7 year deal for Sam would be a good investment. How much money? I will gladly take that bet. 8mil for Sam would be nuts and would definitely send us down the path to perpetual mediocrity - or worse. If that's the money I'd much rather trade him for picks/prospects and sign 2 3-4mil FAs instead. Quote
PerreaultForever Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 36 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said: No in this debate said Sam doesn't have flaws. Jack has flaws. But I'll keep asking find me a replacement at a lower price given Sam's age and production level. Jack may have flaws but the media outside Buffalo is starting to acknowledge the fact that he has finally elevated and become elite. I have yet to see a single article/discussion outside of the local biased coverage that says anything about Sam being elite. Lumping Skinner, Jack, Sam, as "3 top forwards" is a disservice to Jack. Skinner is a decent goalscorer but not all that special on a top team, possibly not a great team guy (not sure on that but Carolina certainly doesn't seem to miss him) but even if he is, definitely not worth the money JBot gave him. Sam? Not even close to those 2. Name me one other top team where Sam would play on their top line? I can't think of one. Quote
rakish Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Zamboni said: If someone wants to do the legwork ... how many goals in the last season and a half from Eichel, did Reinhart have an assist on. Now visa versa. That would be interesting. These are the even strength goals 2019 BUF #9 EICHEL(3), Wrist, Off. Zone, 37 ft. 9,23,68,19,55,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(4), Wrist, Off. Zone, 10 ft. 9,23,68,26,33,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(6), Backhand, Off. Zone, 5 ft.Assists: #55 RISTOLAINEN(5); #37 MITTELSTADT(4) 9,37,55,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(8), Wrist, Off. Zone, 9 ft.Assists: #55 RISTOLAINEN(7); #26 DAHLIN(11) 9,68,22,43,26,55 BUF #9 EICHEL(9), Wrist, Off. Zone, 32 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(8); #26 DAHLIN(12) 9,23,68,26,62,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(10), Wrist, Off. Zone, 34 ft.Assists: #68 OLOFSSON(7); #23 REINHART(9) 9,23,68,19,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(11), Slap, Off. Zone, 26 ft.Assist: #53 SKINNER(5) 9,53,43,6,10,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(12), Wrist, Neu. Zone, 96 ft. 9,28,13,19,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(13), Wrist, Off. Zone, 10 ft. 9,23,28,26,62,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(14), Wrist, Off. Zone, 31 ft.Assists: #26 DAHLIN(15); #4 BOGOSIAN(1) 9,23,13,4,26,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(15), Wrist, Off. Zone, 23 ft.Assist: #4 BOGOSIAN(2) 9,43,90,4,19,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(16), Wrist, Def. Zone, 144 ft.Assist: #55 RISTOLAINEN(8) 9,13,90,4,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(17), Wrist, Off. Zone, 10 ft.Assist: #55 RISTOLAINEN(9) 9,23,68,33,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(19), Wrist, Off. Zone, 14 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(13); #68 OLOFSSON(16) 9,23,68,55,62,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(20), Wrist, Neu. Zone, 96 ft.Assist: #28 GIRGENSONS(4) 9,28,22,10,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(21), Snap, Off. Zone, 27 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(14); #33 MILLER(5) 9,23,68,19,62,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(22), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 13 ft.Assists: #10 JOKIHARJU(7); #26 DAHLIN(16) 9,23,68,10,26,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(24), Wrist, Off. Zone, 31 ft.Assists: #68 OLOFSSON(18); #23 REINHART(16) 9,23,68,26,62,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(27), Wrist, Off. Zone, 30 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(21); #26 DAHLIN(21) 9,23,74,26,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(28), Wrist, Off. Zone, 10 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(23); #33 MILLER(6) 9,23,28,24,33,35 2018 BUF #9 EICHEL(1), Snap, Off. Zone, 28 ft. 9,10,23,6,55,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(3), Backhand, Off. Zone, 11 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(2); #43 SHEARY(1) 9,23,43,19,82,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(4), Wrist, Off. Zone, 37 ft.Assist: #29 POMINVILLE(5) 9,53,29,8,82,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(5), Wrist, Off. Zone, 35 ft.Assist: #55 RISTOLAINEN(9) 9,43,55,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(6), Slap, Off. Zone, 27 ft.Assists: #55 RISTOLAINEN(14); #53 SKINNER(9) 9,23,53,26,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(7), Wrist, Off. Zone, 20 ft.Assist: #23 REINHART(16) 9,23,53,24,82,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(8), Wrist, Off. Zone, 38 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(17); #53 SKINNER(10) 9,23,53,24,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(9), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 13 ft.Assists: #24 PILUT(1); #55 RISTOLAINEN(15) 9,23,53,24,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(11), Wrist, Off. Zone, 12 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(20); #26 DAHLIN(13) 9,23,53,26,55,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(13), Wrist, Off. Zone, 37 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(22); #26 DAHLIN(16) 9,23,53,26,45,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(14), Snap, Neu. Zone, 72 ft.Assists: #23 REINHART(24); #28 GIRGENSONS(5) 9,23,28,4,6,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(16), Wrist, Off. Zone, 34 ft.Assist: #55 RISTOLAINEN(24) 9,53,26,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(17), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 17 ft.Assists: #53 SKINNER(15); #55 RISTOLAINEN(27) 9,23,53,19,55,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(18), Wrist, Off. Zone, 35 ft.Assists: #26 DAHLIN(25); #53 SKINNER(17) 9,23,37,53,26,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(21), Wrist, Off. Zone, 23 ft.Assists: #29 POMINVILLE(12); #55 RISTOLAINEN(33) 9,53,29,19,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(23), Wrist, Off. Zone, 14 ft.Assist: #23 REINHART(40) 9,23,53,4,26,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(25), Wrist, Off. Zone, 21 ft. 9,23,53,6,55,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(26), Wrist, Off. Zone, 15 ft. 9,23,53,92,62,40 BUF #9 EICHEL(27), Wrist, Off. Zone, 17 ft.Assists: #41 OLOFSSON(1); #23 REINHART(42) 9,23,41,24,62,35 BUF #9 EICHEL(28), Wrist, Off. Zone, 10 ft.Assists: #41 OLOFSSON(2); #23 REINHART(43) 9,23,41,26,55,40 2019 BUF #23 REINHART(1), Wrist, Off. Zone, 44 ft.Assists: #19 MCCABE(1); #55 RISTOLAINEN(1) 9,23,68,19,55,40 BUF #23 REINHART(2), Backhand, Off. Zone, 14 ft. 23,37,13,26,55,40 BUF #23 REINHART(3), Slap, Off. Zone, 32 ft.Assists: #68 OLOFSSON(2); #9 EICHEL(6) 9,23,68,6,19,40 BUF #23 REINHART(4), Deflected, Off. Zone, 7 ft.Assists: #55 RISTOLAINEN(4); #9 EICHEL(7) 9,23,68,6,55,40 BUF #23 REINHART(6), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 14 ft.Assists: #55 RISTOLAINEN(6); #19 MCCABE(4) 9,23,68,19,55,35 BUF #23 REINHART(7), Wrist, Off. Zone, 29 ft.Assists: #10 JOKIHARJU(5); #68 OLOFSSON(5) 9,23,68,10,33,35 BUF #23 REINHART(8), Wrist, Off. Zone, 25 ft.Assists: #90 JOHANSSON(6); #62 MONTOUR(1) 23,13,90,26,62,40 BUF #23 REINHART(9), Wrist, Off. Zone, 16 ft.Assists: #68 OLOFSSON(10); #9 EICHEL(16) 9,23,68,6,55,40 BUF #23 REINHART(10), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 20 ft.Assists: #55 RISTOLAINEN(10); #68 OLOFSSON(12) 9,23,68,19,55,35 BUF #23 REINHART(11), Snap, Def. Zone, 166 ft.Assists: #55 RISTOLAINEN(11); #68 OLOFSSON(14) 9,23,68,90,55,62 BUF #23 REINHART(12), Wrist, Off. Zone, 8 ft.Assists: #68 OLOFSSON(15); #62 MONTOUR(7) 9,23,68,55,62,35 BUF #23 REINHART(13), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 14 ft.Assists: #4 BOGOSIAN(4); #68 OLOFSSON(19) 23,68,22,4,19,35 2018 BUF #23 REINHART(1), Deflected, Off. Zone, 7 ft.Assists: #19 MCCABE(4); #43 SHEARY(2) 17,23,43,8,19,40 BUF #23 REINHART(2), Snap, Off. Zone, 15 ft.Assists: #55 RISTOLAINEN(7); #26 DAHLIN(6) 9,23,53,21,26,55 BUF #23 REINHART(3), Snap, Off. Zone, 37 ft.Assist: #9 EICHEL(20) 9,17,23,19,55,40 BUF #23 REINHART(4), Wrist, Off. Zone, 22 ft.Assists: #9 EICHEL(24); #4 BOGOSIAN(5) 9,23,72,4,26,40 BUF #23 REINHART(5), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 18 ft.Assists: #9 EICHEL(25); #8 NELSON(4) 9,17,23,4,26,40 BUF #23 REINHART(7), Backhand, Off. Zone, 7 ft. 9,23,53,24,55,40 BUF #23 REINHART(8), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 11 ft.Assists: #82 BEAULIEU(3); #55 RISTOLAINEN(13) 9,23,53,55,82,35 BUF #23 REINHART(9), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 17 ft.Assists: #24 PILUT(4); #4 BOGOSIAN(6) 23,53,71,4,24,35 BUF #23 REINHART(10), Wrist, Off. Zone, 43 ft.Assists: #53 SKINNER(14); #26 DAHLIN(20) 9,23,53,26,55,35 BUF #23 REINHART(11), Backhand, Off. Zone, 10 ft.Assists: #43 SHEARY(12); #9 EICHEL(36) 9,23,43,6,19,35 BUF #23 REINHART(12), Wrist, Off. Zone, 25 ft.Assists: #55 RISTOLAINEN(26); #19 MCCABE(9) 9,23,53,19,55,40 BUF #23 REINHART(13), Slap, Off. Zone, 12 ft.Assist: #19 MCCABE(10) 9,23,43,6,19,35 BUF #23 REINHART(14), Snap, Off. Zone, 28 ft.Assists: #4 BOGOSIAN(12); #9 EICHEL(44) 9,23,53,4,19,40 BUF #23 REINHART(15), Wrist, Off. Zone, 29 ft.Assist: #71 RODRIGUES(14) 23,71,43,48,82,40 BUF #23 REINHART(16), Tip-In, Off. Zone, 15 ft.Assists: #48 HUNWICK(1); #43 SHEARY(16) 23,71,43,48,82,40 BUF #23 REINHART(17), Wrist, Def. Zone, 174 ft.Assist: #40 HUTTON(1) 9,17,23,19,55,40 BUF #23 REINHART(19), Wrist, Off. Zone, 22 ft.Assists: #37 MITTELSTADT(12); #62 MONTOUR(25) 17,23,37,26,62,40 BUF #23 REINHART(20), Snap, Neu. Zone, 74 ft.Assist: #26 DAHLIN(33) 23,53,71,26,62,35 BUF #23 REINHART(21), Wrist, Off. Zone, 17 ft.Assist: #9 EICHEL(52) 9,23,41,8,24,40 BUF #23 REINHART(22), Wrist, Off. Zone, 9 ft.Assist: #9 EICHEL(53) 9,23,41,26,55,35 Quote
Weave Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 Can someone summarize? I’m not reading all that. Lol Quote
Curt Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 18 minutes ago, Weave said: Can someone summarize? I’m not reading all that. Lol Eichel has scored 46 goals with Sam on the ice. Sam assisted on 16 of them. Sam scored 26 goals with Jack on the ice. Jack assisted on 10 of them. What this proves, I don’t know. I don’t really have anything to compare it to, but it doesn’t appear that they assist on a great deal of each others ES goals. Quote
dudacek Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said: Jack may have flaws but the media outside Buffalo is starting to acknowledge the fact that he has finally elevated and become elite. I have yet to see a single article/discussion outside of the local biased coverage that says anything about Sam being elite. Lumping Skinner, Jack, Sam, as "3 top forwards" is a disservice to Jack. Skinner is a decent goalscorer but not all that special on a top team, possibly not a great team guy (not sure on that but Carolina certainly doesn't seem to miss him) but even if he is, definitely not worth the money JBot gave him. Sam? Not even close to those 2. Name me one other top team where Sam would play on their top line? I can't think of one. The reason you haven't seen articles and discussion about Sam being elite is because people generally don't think he is elite. No one says that. It's something you made up. Some think he is a legitimate 1st line winger just hitting his prime years, but not a star and should be paid the going rate for such a player. Some think he might score at that rate but his overall play means the points are misleading and they are scared to commit the going rate long term. And then there's you, who seems to think George Babcock can do as well as Sam has in his role, despite the fact that for years no one this team has dressed has been able to. There is a list up-thread of the highest scoring right wings for each team in the league that Sam stacks up against quite well. I'm not going to dig it up again because you will just ignore it again. It's a rhetorical question any way because that's all you've offered to this discussion. Your position to date amounts to "I don't like how he plays, therefore Sam is not a good player, and if you want to argue the point, you're being snide." 1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said: Exactly. Because as I said earlier, it's not all about points. The fact that you imply a "soft" 65-point scorer is not better than an equally "soft" 45-point scorer is exactly why you get the pushback you've been getting. It's not a logically defensible position. Edited January 23, 2020 by dudacek 3 1 Quote
Taro T Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 42 minutes ago, rakish said: I'll pull out Pominvvile stats if you make me Pominville was very good at eventually getting to the blue paint and tapping in the back door or rebound opportunity that came to him THROUGH the 2-9 (9-2) Otter game. After that he had exactly nothing left in the tank. Eichel's own shooting %age was low because he rarely, if ever, dropped below the circles in the O-zone because neither of his linemates were going to get back into the zone should the line turn it over. Eichel has far more latitude now than he had without Reinhart on his line. 2 Quote
SwampD Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, rakish said: Eichel has spectacular numbers without Reinhart, but you must put the numbers in context to understand why it isn't that important. Let's say the Larsson's line is on the ice and Okposo gets tripped, it's Eichel that comes over the boards when the goaltender comes off the ice. At this point you have a fresh Eichel on a 6-5, against a tired defense who doesn't normally play very good defense (remember it's Larsson's line on the ice). There's a very good chance of Eichel scoring, but it doesn't happen because Reinhart isn't on the ice. Second situation where they don't play together. Up by 1, or better yet 2, with two minutes left. Eichel gets to play these situations, Reinhart isn't on team "'opponent's empty net." So I could give you Jack's numbers without Sam, but those numbers mean a whole lot less than what you would take them to mean, so I won't. That said, I don't think they play well together and Reinhart should be the 2C everyone craves. Am I correct in thinking that neither of those situations show up in the 5v5 numbers? Sorry, but this thread makes my brain hurt. Quote
rakish Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, SwampD said: Am I correct in thinking that neither of those situations show up in the 5v5 numbers? Sorry, but this thread makes my brain hurt. Not sure, but I think they do since Eichel's plus/minus is so different from Reinharts, I've been attributing much of that to these sort of situations, since they play mostly together. Quote
Taro T Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, rakish said: Not sure, but I think they do since Eichel's plus/minus is so different from Reinharts, I've been attributing much of that to these sort of situations, since they play mostly together. 6 v 5+G is considered even strength so it counts towards +/-. Honestly not certain if the league/ statisticians differentiate 6v5+G from 5v5. Guess is they don't. (Before the "fancy stats" era they definitely didn't differentiate ice time between the 2 situations but they did count EN goals as a separate statistical category. No data on whether they look at ice time w/ goalie pulled separately now.) Quote
rakish Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Taro T said: 6 v 5+G is considered even strength so it counts towards +/-. Honestly not certain if the league/ statisticians differentiate 6v5+G from 5v5. Guess is they don't. (Before the "fancy stats" era they definitely didn't differentiate ice time between the 2 situations but they did count EN goals as a separate statistical category. No data on whether they look at ice time w/ goalie pulled separately now.) I don't feel like counting on my fingers, but somehow Eichel has a plus minus 16 better than Reinhart Quote
SwampD Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, rakish said: I don't feel like counting on my fingers, but somehow Eichel has a plus minus 16 better than Reinhart How many were OT? That's even strength. All this talk aside, I repeat, extend him now at 7 x 7 and I'm happy. Edited January 23, 2020 by SwampD Quote
rakish Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, SwampD said: How many were OT. That's even strength. Yeah, that would account for some, Eichel's 6th was with Mittelstadt and Risto. Miller's 1st was with Eichel and Johansson. Eichel lost a plus minus (if they are counted this way) when he, Olofsson, and Risto gave up a goal. Quote
Zamboni Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 16 minutes ago, SwampD said: How many were OT? That's even strength. All this talk aside, I repeat, extend him now at 7 x 7 and I'm happy. I would be too. Unfortunately I think it may take a little more. Looking at his peers and what they get. Quote
GASabresIUFAN Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said: Jack may have flaws but the media outside Buffalo is starting to acknowledge the fact that he has finally elevated and become elite. I have yet to see a single article/discussion outside of the local biased coverage that says anything about Sam being elite. Lumping Skinner, Jack, Sam, as "3 top forwards" is a disservice to Jack. Skinner is a decent goalscorer but not all that special on a top team, possibly not a great team guy (not sure on that but Carolina certainly doesn't seem to miss him) but even if he is, definitely not worth the money JBot gave him. Sam? Not even close to those 2. Name me one other top team where Sam would play on their top line? I can't think of one. Besides, Wash, Dal, Edm, NYI, Nash, AZ and CBJ to name 7 off the top of my head. 2 Quote
PerreaultForever Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, dudacek said: The reason you haven't seen articles and discussion about Sam being elite is because people generally don't think he is elite. No one says that. It's something you made up. Some think he is a legitimate 1st line winger just hitting his prime years, but not a star and should be paid the going rate for such a player. Some think he might score at that rate but his overall play means the points are misleading and they are scared to commit the going rate long term. And then there's you, who seems to think George Babcock can do as well as Sam has in his role, despite the fact that for years no one this team has dressed has been able to. There is a list up-thread of the highest scoring right wings for each team in the league that Sam stacks up against quite well. I'm not going to dig it up again because you will just ignore it again. It's a rhetorical question any way because that's all you've offered to this discussion. Your position to date amounts to "I don't like how he plays, therefore Sam is not a good player, and if you want to argue the point, you're being snide." The fact that you imply a "soft" 65-point scorer is not better than an equally "soft" 45-point scorer is exactly why you get the pushback you've been getting. It's not a logically defensible position. Don't get bogged down by exact words. I'm not overly interested in debating if "elite" has to be used differently than "1st line player." The point is the supporters think of him as a core player, a top line player, a top guy who should be paid top dollar. The number 8 mil was mentioned a little while ago. Simply crazy. pay him even more than Nylander, a guy who already locks T-dot into cap hell? You want that road to oblivion? No thank you. 38 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Besides, Wash, Dal, Edm, NYI, Nash, AZ and CBJ to name 7 off the top of my head. No. Simply no. I'm not going to counter each team but if you think Washington would take Wilson off of Ovi's line and replace him with Sam you are insane. I notice you didn't list Boston, so at least you acknowledge he's no Marchand :) (who makes 6.125 mil by the way) Quote
steveoath Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) Not to nit pick, but Marchand's aav based on when he signed is the equivalent of over 11.7% of the cap. Sam at 8m is 10.2%. Not saying Sam>Marchand or that he should be given 8 btw. Edited January 23, 2020 by steveoath 1 Quote
LGR4GM Posted January 23, 2020 Report Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said: Exactly. Because as I said earlier, it's not all about points. How much money? I will gladly take that bet. 8mil for Sam would be nuts and would definitely send us down the path to perpetual mediocrity - or worse. If that's the money I'd much rather trade him for picks/prospects and sign 2 3-4mil FAs instead. lol I want this to happen just so when Sam goes to... idk Edmonton and puts up 70 point seasons with McDavid. Meanwhile the 2 Johansson level players we get will have 30-40point seasons and you will add them together and call it victory! Edited January 23, 2020 by LGR4GM Quote
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