Reinhart, sign him or trade him?

[Zamboni]

https://theathletic.com/1550914/2020/01/21/evaluating-sam-reinharts-value-as-he-approaches-restricted-free-agency/?amp#click=https://t.co/vqk6JP3JIw
 

those who have The Athletic... maybe post some highlights from it.

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

https://theathletic.com/1550914/2020/01/21/evaluating-sam-reinharts-value-as-he-approaches-restricted-free-agency/?amp#click=https://t.co/vqk6JP3JIw
 

those who have The Athletic... maybe post some highlights from it.

We already did

21 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Sam Reinhart. I believe he has been called lazy, a passenger, weak, and if we keep him we are settling. All things which I quite frankly think are bull##it. But anyways

https://theathletic.com/1550914/2020/01/21/evaluating-sam-reinharts-value-as-he-approaches-restricted-free-agency/

Sabres coach Ralph Krueger backed up that compliment.

“His conditioning is among the top of our team,” Krueger said. “He works as hard as anybody on his body and his overall professional package, which is an example for everybody.”

“What we love about Sam is how he’s embraced the necessity of playing without the puck and staying above it when the others are below it, tracking back hard and working with our D if called upon, being low if Jack’s high in the D-zone,” the coach said. “All those things, Jack and Sam are an amazing duo. Sam’s offense is growing out of that defense, which is nice for us to see.”

 

 

20 hours ago, dudacek said:

From the same article:

The 175-game mark on the above chart is Jan. 1, 2018, when Reinhart scored at the Winter Classic and really kickstarted his career. Since that day, he’s 40^th among forwards in points (all stats are through Jan. 19). There are significant players surrounding him.

 

Monahan $6.3 over 7 starting in 2016

Stone $9.5 over 8 in 2019

Connor $7.1 over 7 in 2019

Duchene $8 over 7 in 2019

Guentzel $6 over 5 in 2019

Voracek $8.2 over 8 in 2016

Couture $8 over 8 in 2019

Radulov $6.2 over 5 in 2017

Tkachuk $7 million over 3 in 2019

(Barzal's entry-level deal expires this summer)

 

The article states the 50th highest-paid forward in the league right now makes $6.7 million

 

Like it or not, these are his peers Sabrespace.

Good luck signing him to that $6 million ceiling this summer. Good luck finding an upgrade.

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by LGR4GM

[Zamboni]

Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum are talking about Reinhart on WGR right now.

Sam is getting Connor/Duchene term and money. No doubt.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Zamboni

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum are talking about Reinhart on WGR right now.

 

maybe post some highlights 

[Zamboni]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

maybe post some highlights 

Haha ...

they were basically saying he’s gonna get paid big time. 

[dudacek]

“His conditioning is among the top of our team,” Krueger said. “He works as hard as anybody on his body and his overall professional package, which is an example for everybody.”

Response: Yeah, like what the ***** does his coach know? He's clearly lying. Reinhart's a slacker

The 175-game mark on the above chart is Jan. 1, 2018, when Reinhart scored at the Winter Classic and really kickstarted his career. Since that day, he’s 40th among forwards in points

Response: Those numbers or meaningless. Everyone else on that list got all their points by skating end-to-end with bags of rocks tied to their skates. Sam got his by staying as far away from the dirty areas as possible and having random pucks  bounce of his ass as he was falling down.

[#freejame]

Anyone who wants Sam below $8m should have been clamoring for an extension when the rest of us were. Anything less than 8x8 will be fortunate. 

[Taro T]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

point 1 - bolded, that was my point, as I already said so there it is again.

point 2 - it's not all about points. I'm sure after games Sam compliments Jack a lot ("nice game Jack!" maybe being one of them). What he also does is wear Jack out by turning over the puck in the offensive zone and by forcing Jack to carry it up and down the ice all the time and have Jack go up against the D so that he can head off to that open area and wait. 

point 3 - I've watched every game too. Last year and the year before that............ and every time I see that thread called "I sometimes break a sweat" here on sabrespace my mind instantly thinks of Sam. 

A few things you seem to be missing. Watch the next game. His so called work against the wall. Watch how he doesn't finish his checks but turns or stops. Watch how he doesn't actually go in front but stands just off to the side. Watch how he steps away from contact or makes one of your so called subtle passes to avoid contact. The list goes on. He's a soft slacker through and through.

There really is no point in continuing this discussion.  We appear to be talking past each other.

You want him to be a bruiser and he isn't and won't ever be.  Pretty sure you're going to be upset with him for a long time as he's getting at least a 6 year deal if not a full 8 years.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Top RW on each franchise - YTD

Bos - Pastrnak - 37g 31a 70 pts

Chi - Kane - 25g 38a 63 pts

TB - Kucherov - 22-33-54

Stl - Perron - 21-28-49

Car - Teravainen - 10-38-48

Tor - Marner - 13-34-47

LV - Stone - 18-28-46

Wpg - Laine - 17-28-45

Pitt - Rust - 21-22-43

Phi - Konecny - 17-26-43

Van - Boeser - 16-27-43

Buf - Reinhart - 17-24-41

Fla - Dadanov - 23-17-40

Clg - Tkachuk - 15-23-38

AZ - Schmaltz - 7-28-35

Wash - Oshie - 18-16-34

Colo - Rantanen - 15-19-34 (but in only 33 games)

Ott - Duclair - 21-12-33

Dal - Radulov - 13-15-28

Edm - Kassian - 13-15-28

NJ - Gusev - 8-20-28

LA - Toffoli - 12-15-27

Minn - Zuccarello - 12-14-26

CBJ - Bjorkstrand - 14-11-25

NYI - Eberle - 7-17-24

NYR - Fast - 8-13-21

Nsh - Arvidsson - 11-9-20

Ana - Kase- 5-13-18

SJ - Marleau - 8-9-17

Mon - Kovalchuk - 7-10-17

Det - Zadina - 7-6-13 (in 25 games)

I’m not sure what people want, but Reinhart is right there in the very good top line RWs in the NHL.  He is not elite like Rantanen, Kane, Kucherov, or Pastrnak, but he is in the next tier down.  Explain to me how you replace him with an elite RW?  Unless you develop one, you likely aren’t getting one.  Nearly every player on this list from Tkachuk up to Pastrnak is with the team that drafted them.  The only exceptions were the rebuilding Sens trade of Stone to LV for an NHL player, a top prospect and a 2nd, and Chi’s foolish trade of Teravainen to Car for 2 draft picks.  Hoping to upgrade Reinhart with a trade like Car/Chi is a pipe dream.  

 

 

[miles]

Do you think some of perceive samson as deserving less than 8 because jack makes 10 and same isnt 80% as good as jack?

Or is he? Just seems like samson has jack to thank for his raise vs his own efforts. If you put sam on 2nd line, I think he has 1/2 the points he has... see skinner stats

Edited January 22, 2020 by miles

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, miles said:

Do you think some of perceive samson as deserving less than 8 because jack makes 10 and same isnt 80% as good as jack?

Or is he? Just seems like samson has jack to thank for his raise vs his own efforts. If you put sam on 2nd line, I think he has 1/2 the points he has... see skinner stats

What would you say if I told you that Sam has produced 5-on-5 points at roughly the same rate when he is on the ice both with and without Eichel over the past couple years?

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, miles said:

Do you think some of perceive samson as deserving less than 8 because jack makes 10 and same isnt 80% as good as jack?

Or is he? Just seems like samson has jack to thank for his raise vs his own efforts. If you put sam on 2nd line, I think he has 1/2 the points he has... see skinner stats

I doubt they’d be half.  In fact they would probably be similar except less goals and more assists as he’d be Skinner’s primary feeder.

i have been begging RK to move Sam to Skinner’s line to elevate the 2nd line now that Jack had VO.  Unfortunately RK kept Sam stapled to Jack and we have to assume that is the plan for the future. 

If that’s the plan, Sam will get a good deal to keep him on Jack’s RW.

[DarthEbriate]

If Sam plays 2RW, then naturally he has fewer points so far this season. Likewise, if Skinner plays 1LW with Jack and Sam he has more points than he currently does (injury excluded). But if the 2C is a valid NHL-caliber 2C, then maybe Sam and Skinner on the 2nd line is a top 2nd line in the league...   Just like if Olofsson hadn't been with Jack/Sam all season, he wouldn't be in the ROTY conversation.

What the GMs see (around the league) is Sam produces like a 1RW, which means he's getting $7.5M+ for 6 years or more, from someone. I suppose we could do a sign-and-trade, but more likely, he signs with a NMC so he's protected from Seattle.

Money is not the problem. We have Hunwick and Sobotka off the books (let alone the half dozen other forwards... and Dalton Smith) this offseason.

And if he's not part of the future in two years, and either doesn't have it or agrees to waive the NMC, then we make some sort of deal with Seattle to leave Sam unprotected in exchange for picks and a player that Seattle plucks from another team. (He's from Vancouver so he'd be closer to home and could stick it to the Canucks 4x a season).

[nfreeman]

36 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Top RW on each franchise - YTD

-snip-

I’m not sure what people want, but Reinhart is right there in the very good top line RWs in the NHL.  He is not elite like Rantanen, Kane, Kucherov, or Pastrnak, but he is in the next tier down.  Explain to me how you replace him with an elite RW?  Unless you develop one, you likely aren’t getting one.  Nearly every player on this list from Tkachuk up to Pastrnak is with the team that drafted them.  The only exceptions were the rebuilding Sens trade of Stone to LV for an NHL player, a top prospect and a 2nd, and Chi’s foolish trade of Teravainen to Car for 2 draft picks.  Hoping to upgrade Reinhart with a trade like Car/Chi is a pipe dream. 

Good list, and I largely agree, but I will point out that stars pop loose every year for various reasons.  For example, Stone was traded last season, and there was quite a bit of talk last summer about Laine being traded.  It is that type of situation (and IMHO only that type of situation) that would enable an upgrade from Reino. 

But I agree that deciding not to pay the $7.5MM or so per year to keep him and putting him on the trade market would almost certainly result in a net talent downgrade and would be a dumb move.  I do not expect JB to make that mistake.

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

“His conditioning is among the top of our team,” Krueger said. “He works as hard as anybody on his body and his overall professional package, which is an example for everybody.”

Response: Yeah, like what the ***** does his coach know? He's clearly lying. Reinhart's a slacker

The 175-game mark on the above chart is Jan. 1, 2018, when Reinhart scored at the Winter Classic and really kickstarted his career. Since that day, he’s 40th among forwards in points

Response: Those numbers or meaningless. Everyone else on that list got all their points by skating end-to-end with bags of rocks tied to their skates. Sam got his by staying as far away from the dirty areas as possible and having random pucks  bounce of his ass as he was falling down.

It's interesting that when asked about Sam, the head coach chooses to praise the work he puts into himself off the ice.  

I, for one, don't see that killer instinct, or exceptionally high compete level from Sam on a consistent enough basis.    He can get away with it because he has above average hands and sees the ice well... He could be so much more if he cared deeply about the team, but his style of play suggests that he cares about himself and his own stats, more than team results.   

That said, I do see him compete in spurts, at end of games if the score is close for example.   But he doesn't bring IT every game, every shift... not many players do, but you'd like to it see it more often than not and for same it's more often lacking. 

Also noteworthy that all the Reinhart apologists can do is point at his numbers, because that's all he his.  He doesn't bring any of the intangibles which make a team successful.   His play on the ice doesn't inspire his teammates to be better.    It's not necessarily a bad thing, there is a role for that type of player, but when investing in long term deal, you need to evaluate the entire package.   

Is this peak Sam? 

Is he going to be consistently around 50th in points playing alongside a top five +100pt player? 

Would you give similarly productive players like Jaden Schwartz, Dadanov, Vrana, Killorn that same kind of money to play with Eichel?  

 

[LGR4GM]

On 1/15/2020 at 11:06 AM, Randall Flagg said:

We can check and see  if this has merit or if you're just making stuff up - in the last 3 seasons, Reinhart has spent 38% of his ES time away from Eichel. 

He has 25 goals and 67 points with Eichel and 20 goals and 21 assists without him. Prorating these rates out for a full season, we would have: 

With Eichel: 82 games, ~16 even strength goals, ~42 even strength points
Without Eichel: 82 games, ~21 even strength goals, ~43 even strength points

This includes the time he spent centering Griffith and Moulson in 2017-18, as well as his stretches with last year's Sobotka and Sheary/Rodrigues. So I don't really buy your random guessing. 

It makes sense that his assists spike with a guy like Jack and his shot (as well as Olofsson/Skinner when he's up there) but when he's NOT with Jack his linemates have generally been horrendous, aside from stints with ROR in the first year of this analysis (which was his worst ES year of the 3 by FAR, and so doesn't contribute heavily). 

These statistics indicate why we were so anxious to see Reinhart drive his own line in the first place, and the fact that I'm seeing the conclusion that he can't being drawn from the simple fact that our coaches don't DO it rather than actually seeing what happens, I am inclined to ignore the rest of what the people saying this have to say on the subject

By the way, Sam averages ~15-20 PP points per season in the last 3, and there's no need to remove Eichel from the equation there, so that gives us the ~60 point player we see in that span. And he's gotten better at piling up points every season of his career and will approach 70 this one

 

44 minutes ago, miles said:

Do you think some of perceive samson as deserving less than 8 because jack makes 10 and same isnt 80% as good as jack?

Or is he? Just seems like samson has jack to thank for his raise vs his own efforts. If you put sam on 2nd line, I think he has 1/2 the points he has... see skinner stats

Here, let me find a post in this very thread to disprove what you said. 

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

It's interesting that when asked about Sam, the head coach chooses to praise the work he puts into himself off the ice.  

I, for one, don't see that killer instinct, or exceptionally high compete level from Sam on a consistent enough basis.    He can get away with it because he has above average hands and sees the ice well... He could be so much more if he cared deeply about the team, but his style of play suggests that he cares about himself and his own stats, more than team results.   

That said, I do see him compete in spurts, at end of games if the score is close for example.   But he doesn't bring IT every game, every shift... not many players do, but you'd like to it see it more often than not and for same it's more often lacking. 

Also noteworthy that all the Reinhart apologists can do is point at his numbers, because that's all he his.  He doesn't bring any of the intangibles which make a team successful.   His play on the ice doesn't inspire his teammates to be better.    It's not necessarily a bad thing, there is a role for that type of player, but when investing in long term deal, you need to evaluate the entire package.   

Is this peak Sam? 

Is he going to be consistently around 50th in points playing alongside a top five +100pt player? 

Would you give similarly productive players like Jaden Schwartz, Dadanov, Vrana, Killorn that same kind of money to play with Eichel?  

 

Can't say I agree with all of it (your comparables are older than Sam and have generally been less productive), but this, this is all valid stuff worth talking about.

You DID BETTER!

[Zamboni]

Eichel isn’t a 100+ point player. He may never be. Until he is ... he isn’t. Strawman.

“He doesn’t care about the team”...  pure BS and a poor opinion.

”only cares about himself” “style of play” ... that’s why he’s always had more assists than goals. Because he only cares about getting goals. He’s such a shoot first puck hog like E. Kane. Dooo Betta.

Elite passing IS an “intangible”

seeing the ice very well IS an “intangible”. 

Terrific hand/eye coordination IS an “intangible”. Dooo Betta.

Skinner definitely doesn’t inspire his linemates. A ton of well well well paid players don’t inspire. They don’t need to. And inspire is such a broad genetic paintbrush term. Doooo Betta.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Zamboni

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

It's interesting that when asked about Sam, the head coach chooses to praise the work he puts into himself off the ice.  

I, for one, don't see that killer instinct, or exceptionally high compete level from Sam on a consistent enough basis.    He can get away with it because he has above average hands and sees the ice well... He could be so much more if he cared deeply about the team, but his style of play suggests that he cares about himself and his own stats, more than team results.   

That said, I do see him compete in spurts, at end of games if the score is close for example.   But he doesn't bring IT every game, every shift... not many players do, but you'd like to it see it more often than not and for same it's more often lacking. 

Also noteworthy that all the Reinhart apologists can do is point at his numbers, because that's all he his.  He doesn't bring any of the intangibles which make a team successful.   His play on the ice doesn't inspire his teammates to be better.    It's not necessarily a bad thing, there is a role for that type of player, but when investing in long term deal, you need to evaluate the entire package.   

Is this peak Sam? 

Is he going to be consistently around 50th in points playing alongside a top five +100pt player? 

Would you give similarly productive players like Jaden Schwartz, Dadanov, Vrana, Killorn that same kind of money to play with Eichel?  

 

[pi2000]

43 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Eichel isn’t a 100+ point player. He may never be. Until he is ... he isn’t. Strawman.

“He doesn’t care about the team”...  pure BS and a poor opinion.

”only cares about himself” “style of play” ... that’s why he’s always had more assists than goals. Because he only cares about getting goals. He’s such a shoot first puck hog like E. Kane. Dooo Betta.

Elite passing IS an “intangible”

seeing the ice very well IS an “intangible”. 

Terrific hand/eye coordination IS an “intangible”. Dooo Betta.

Skinner definitely doesn’t inspire his linemates. A ton of well well well paid players don’t inspire. They don’t need to. And inspire is such a broad genetic paintbrush term. Doooo Betta.

Elite passing and seeing the ice very well.... yet he's only 64th in the league in assists.  Do better.

As someone who has played the game at a high level, I can tell you that simply watching a guy dangle doesn't inspire the team.   What DOES inspire the team is going above and beyond what is expected effort wise.   Not giving up on plays, 2nd, 3rd, 4th effort, never say die compete level, sacrificing for the team... THAT gets the bench fired up.   Not having good eye hand co-ordination or seeing the ice well... all that does is make guys on the bench ohhh and ahhh... and wish they had those skills.  

Skinner shows much more tenacity on the puck than Reinhart.. eg, that goal against Columbus where he chased down the defenseman from behind the play, picked his pocket and buried.   Skinner is notorious for hounding the puck on the forecheck and creating turnovers... that takes EFFORT.    Have we ever seen that effort from Sam?   When has he ever made a play where you thought to yourself.. "boy what a fantastic effort, he never quit on that play"... give me one example.     

 

[DarthEbriate]

I guess this thread is what we're doing in response to that other thread about what we're doing this week.

I believe we extend Reino, so I'll go continue with the follow-up. We then still need a 2C and 1 or 2 RW (depending on the chemistry/construction of the lines). And that's where the type of player is important. In the very general sense: Eichel is the puck-mover with the elite shot. Olofsson is the sniper. Reino is the passer. Skinner is the feisty forechecker. We need the complementary pieces.

Either of the other 2 in the top 6 needs to be defensively skilled (but unlike Sobotka, capable of playing top 6 and contributing to the scoresheet), and one of them has to be imposing. None of the other top 6 outside of Jack is physically imposing. And really, Jack's strength shines through when he has the puck. This imposing guy (as a winger) is the easier to come by in free agency. Sure, you overpay, but there's a reason Lucic and Maroon and Kassian and Dustin Brown all still have top 6 gigs at 5-on-5. We just have to have avoid paying them top-line dollar. They're important, but can't be paid as all-important or "team-saviour-ing" like Lucic was to Edmonton.

The all-around 2C (oh, woe is us ROR) is a little harder to come by in FA. And we can't trust Cozens to this role in his rookie year. It's also an entirely different thread.

[dudacek]

6 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Elite passing and seeing the ice very well.... yet he's only 64th in the league in assists.  Do better.

As someone who has played the game at a high level, I can tell you that simply watching a guy dangle doesn't inspire the team.   What DOES inspire the team is going above and beyond what is expected effort wise.   Not giving up on plays, 2nd, 3rd, 4th effort, never say die compete level, sacrificing for the team... THAT gets the bench fired up.   Not having good eye hand co-ordination or seeing the ice well... all that does is make guys on the bench ohhh and ahhh... and wish they had those skills.  

Skinner shows much more tenacity on the puck than Reinhart.. eg, that goal against Columbus where he chased down the defenseman from behind the play, picked his pocket and buried.   Skinner is notorious for hounding the puck on the forecheck and creating turnovers... that takes EFFORT.    Have we ever seen that effort from Sam?   When has he ever made a play where you thought to yourself.. "boy what a fantastic effort, he never quit on that play"... give me one example.     

 

I haven't played at a high level, but anyone who has ever played at any level wants to play with the guy who gets them the puck when they need to be given the puck, or is in the right place to cover up for your mistakes. Sam does both better than most. They also get frustrated playing with the puck hog who always shoots first and loafs on the backcheck, which Jeff can be prone to doing. But you know that already.

Edited January 23, 2020 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Elite passing and seeing the ice very well.... yet he's only 64th in the league in assists.  Do better.

As someone who has played the game at a high level, I can tell you that simply watching a guy dangle doesn't inspire the team.   What DOES inspire the team is going above and beyond what is expected effort wise.   Not giving up on plays, 2nd, 3rd, 4th effort, never say die compete level, sacrificing for the team... THAT gets the bench fired up.   Not having good eye hand co-ordination or seeing the ice well... all that does is make guys on the bench ohhh and ahhh... and wish they had those skills.  

Skinner shows much more tenacity on the puck than Reinhart.. eg, that goal against Columbus where he chased down the defenseman from behind the play, picked his pocket and buried.   Skinner is notorious for hounding the puck on the forecheck and creating turnovers... that takes EFFORT.    Have we ever seen that effort from Sam?   When has he ever made a play where you thought to yourself.. "boy what a fantastic effort, he never quit on that play"... give me one example.     

 

I noticed how you changed your argument after the last argument was disproved. Keep moving those goalposts. 

[TrueBlueGED]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

“His conditioning is among the top of our team,” Krueger said. “He works as hard as anybody on his body and his overall professional package, which is an example for everybody.”

Response: Yeah, like what the ***** does his coach know? He's clearly lying. Reinhart's a slacker

 

To be fair, coaches lie all the time. 

[LGR4GM]

23 hours ago, pi2000 said:

 

40th?  Do better.

Any of those players would out produce him alongside Eichel, and it wouldn't even be close.

 

19 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Be careful what you wish for....

Speaking of strawman, can anybody tell me exactly what special skill Sam possess that makes him a 7-7.5m/yr player?

Tarasenko makes 7.5, how many goals would he have playing next to Eichel?  How many more points would Eichel have with a sniper like Tarasenko?

Why do we have to settle for Reinhart on his wing?  The standard should be higher if they want to contend for a Cup.    They have their LaFontaine, they need a Mogilny on his wing, not a Derek Plante.    Reinhart has averaged 0.63 points per game over his first 4 seasons.    Derek Plante averaged 0.66 points per game over his first 4 seasons in the league.  So  yeah, so let's just go ahead and give Derek Plante 7.5m/yr. 

DO BETTER

 

15 hours ago, pi2000 said:

If this is true then where are all the assists?   With those skills he should have 60 assists on that line, he's nowhere close to that.

He's averaging 0.3 assists per game in his career.

Not good enough...  DUE BATTER

See here are all the posts in which POINTS were the main argument from Pi and then suddenly it is effort. Amazing. Doh Bettar.