Reinhart, sign him or trade him?

[Doohicksie]

Really?  Or tongue in cheek (serious question).

[pi2000]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

Really?  Or tongue in cheek (serious question).

What if I was serious?

[Doohicksie]

I'd take it up via IM.

[pi2000]

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I'd take it up via IM.

you have to shed your burdens, the pain, the shame.  leave it all behind.   strip it all away.

only then you can speak your truth.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

 

40th?  Do better.

Any of those players would out produce him alongside Eichel, and it wouldn't even be close.

I'll bite.

Guentzel put up his numbers playing on a team with Crosby and Malkin, Connor with Wheeler and Schiefele, Monahan and Tkachuk with Gaudreau, Duchene with Stone/Mackinnon/Rantanen, Stone with Duchene/William Karlsson Erik Karlsson, Couture with Burns/EKarlsson, Voracek with Giroux/Couturier, Radulov with Benn/Seguin.

At least half those guys put up their numbers playing with "sidekicks" who outproduced Jack over that period, but that was probably Sam's fault, right?

Do better.

Edited January 21, 2020 by dudacek

[Zamboni]

I love how some want to see Sam produce without Eichel before getting paid big $$$. 
 

Yep. Like that’s standard operating procedure with all the other peers who have gotten big contracts. Nope none of those guys play with good line mates. It’s all on their own. No teamwork, or chemistry with all those guys ? 

Strawman deep dives like Do Better are hilarious.

Reimhart will get from the Sabres or another team 6-8 year deal. And at a minimum ... 6mil per. probably in the ballpark of 7 - 7.5 per.

[mjd1001]

35 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I love how some want to see Sam produce without Eichel before getting paid big $$$. 
 

Yep. Like that’s standard operating procedure with all the other peers who have gotten big contracts. Nope none of those guys play with good line mates. It’s all on their own. No teamwork, or chemistry with all those guys ? 

Strawman deep dives like Do Better are hilarious.

Reimhart will get from the Sabres or another team 6-8 year deal. And at a minimum ... 6mil per. probably in the ballpark of 7 - 7.5 per.

I certainly do want to see him play with someone else so I know more of what I have in him.  Why would you not want to see if he can carry a line himself..and just give him a big contract without putting him in as many situations as possible?

What every other player on every other team that gets a long term contract did has little to do with gaining as much info from your own player as possible.  Of all the big money-long term contracts given out....I'm sure many of them ended up not being worth it and hurt the team in the long run because they were given to players that the team thought could be a centerpiece and that player ended up not producing that way. Why not find out now?

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I'll bite.

Guentzel put up his numbers playing on a team with Crosby and Malkin, Connor with Wheeler and Schiefele, Monahan and Tkachuk with Gaudreau, Duchene with Stone/Mackinnon/Rantanen, Stone with Duchene/William Karlsson Erik Karlsson, Couture with Burns/EKarlsson, Voracek with Giroux/Couturier, Radulov with Benn/Seguin.

At least half those guys put up their numbers playing with "sidekicks" who outproduced Jack over that period, but that was probably Sam's fault, right?

Do better.

Yessss!!  dudacek is back and he's using bold print (which is his polite Canadian way of saying GFY) in defense of Reinhart, who has undeniably made some very sweet plays in the past few games!

Watch your step, @pi2000.

[dudacek]

58 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I certainly do want to see him play with someone else so I know more of what I have in him.  Why would you not want to see if he can carry a line himself..and just give him a big contract without putting him in as many situations as possible?

What every other player on every other team that gets a long term contract did has little to do with gaining as much info from your own player as possible.  Of all the big money-long term contracts given out....I'm sure many of them ended up not being worth it and hurt the team in the long run because they were given to players that the team thought could be a centerpiece and that player ended up not producing that way. Why not find out now?

False argument. No one is suggesting Reinhart be re-signed as a centrepiece; in the current market those guys get $10 million-plus.

Some people seem to think $7 million involves some kind of projection of play Sam has not achieved. They're wrong. $7 million is market value for guys who can play on the first line but are not centrepieces. And that's what Sam is. The numbers are further up the thread. The 50th highest-paid forward in the NHL makes $6.7 million. Sam is the 40th highest-scoring forward in the NHL over the past 2-plus years. If he continues scoring at his current levels he gives value for the money right away. As salaries rise, he will quickly be a become a bargain.

It's exasperating watching Vesey after Sheary after Kane after god-knows-who trotted out on Eichel's wing and fail, or watching people bend over backwards to make excuses for Skinner's 40-point pace on the second line, then see Reinhart dismissed as a passenger. Being able to play with good players is a plus, not a minus.

Kurri had his numbers inflated by Gretzky, Kunitz by Crosby, Shutt by Lafleur. So ***** what? They were put in a position to succeed and they succeeded.

What's the point in seeing (again) how Reinhart does with guys like Vesey and Sheary? His numbers will go down, just like Skinner's have and Jack's will. Coaches tend to play good players with other good players for a reason. Reinhart's best skill is reading and reacting with high-level players. A coach would have to be brain-dead to play him with plumbers.

Forcing him to carry his own line is a no-win situation for Buffalo: If he succeeds then he's asking for and deserving a Skinner contract. If he fails, you end up with a demoralized, devalued asset you end up shipping out for a devalued price to a team that will utilize him properly. Meanwhile, your best hope in finding a replacement capable of playing at that level is to shoot for another top-five draft pick, or pray for a GM dumb enough to trade you the next O'Reilly for a bag of pucks.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Reinhart is not a star, but he is a very good player. Pay him for what he is. Thank your lucky stars if it's long-term and starts with a 7.

Good players are hard to find. Keep the ones we have and go find some more.

Edited January 21, 2020 by dudacek

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

I love how some want to see Sam produce without Eichel before getting paid big $$$. 
 

Yep. Like that’s standard operating procedure with all the other peers who have gotten big contracts. Nope none of those guys play with good line mates. It’s all on their own. No teamwork, or chemistry with all those guys ? 

Strawman deep dives like Do Better are hilarious.

Reimhart will get from the Sabres or another team 6-8 year deal. And at a minimum ... 6mil per. probably in the ballpark of 7 - 7.5 per.

Be careful what you wish for....

Speaking of strawman, can anybody tell me exactly what special skill Sam possess that makes him a 7-7.5m/yr player?

Tarasenko makes 7.5, how many goals would he have playing next to Eichel?  How many more points would Eichel have with a sniper like Tarasenko?

Why do we have to settle for Reinhart on his wing?  The standard should be higher if they want to contend for a Cup.    They have their LaFontaine, they need a Mogilny on his wing, not a Derek Plante.    Reinhart has averaged 0.63 points per game over his first 4 seasons.    Derek Plante averaged 0.66 points per game over his first 4 seasons in the league.  So  yeah, so let's just go ahead and give Derek Plante 7.5m/yr. 

DO BETTER

[Southtown Tommy]

He is good, but this team desperately needs GREAT! Botteril's approach must be to find another center that can drive play. A hockey trade involving many parts, including Reinhart, would be one way to do it. His value is pretty high at the moment - strike while the iron is hot!

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

Be careful what you wish for....

Speaking of strawman, can anybody tell me exactly what special skill Sam possess that makes him a 7-7.5m/yr player?

Tarasenko makes 7.5, how many goals would he have playing next to Eichel?  How many more points would Eichel have with a sniper like Tarasenko?

Why do we have to settle for Reinhart on his wing?  The standard should be higher if they want to contend for a Cup.    They have their LaFontaine, they need a Mogilny on his wing, not a Derek Plante.    Reinhart has averaged 0.63 points per game over his first 4 seasons.    Derek Plante averaged 0.66 points per game over his first 4 seasons in the league.  So  yeah, so let's just go ahead and give Derek Plante 7.5m/yr. 

DO BETTER

Speaking of garbage counter arguments. Tarensenko signed his deal in july 2015. The salary cap was 71.4 million. That was worth 10.5% of the cap. 

Paying Reinhart 7.5 now equals roughly 9% of the cap depending on how high it goes next season. That's less than tarensenko. Tarensenko btw was coming off a 73 point season. Reinhart is on pace for 69 points. 

So yea... that's probably about right for a top 40 forward. 

Do better. 

[PerreaultForever]

Skinner is already overpaid. If we pay Sam what some of you suggest we will never be able to build a winner. 

and we've already seen what he does on a line without Jack - nothing. 

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Be careful what you wish for....

Speaking of strawman, can anybody tell me exactly what special skill Sam possess that makes him a 7-7.5m/yr player?

Tarasenko makes 7.5, how many goals would he have playing next to Eichel?  How many more points would Eichel have with a sniper like Tarasenko?

Why do we have to settle for Reinhart on his wing?  The standard should be higher if they want to contend for a Cup.    They have their LaFontaine, they need a Mogilny on his wing, not a Derek Plante.    Reinhart has averaged 0.63 points per game over his first 4 seasons.    Derek Plante averaged 0.66 points per game over his first 4 seasons in the league.  So  yeah, so let's just go ahead and give Derek Plante 7.5m/yr. 

DO BETTER

 

Cherry pick much? Tarasenko signed in 2015 for 10. 5% of the cap. At a projected cap of $83 million for next year, that projects to $8.7 million. And that included 4 RFA years, where Sam is selling just two. But you understand that. I don't know how many points Jack would have next to Tarasenko and neither do you. Tarasenko's goal scoring numbers over his career are a bit better than Jeff Skinner's. Jack put up 82 points as Skinner's centre, so 85-90ish?

Apples and oranges: Derek Plante turned 23 in rookie first season. Sam Reinhart turned 24 this season. In his best year, Plante finished 90th in NHL scoring. As you know, Sam is 40th over the past two years. Reinhart put up 106 points at the same ages Plante totalled 78, except Plante did it on a team that had three Eichels: Lafontaine, Mogiliny and Hawerchuk!

Talk about a straw man. Who said we have to "settle" for Reinhart? There isn't a single person advocating we take him over Mitch Marner or Leon Draisaitl. Last I checked, those guys are not available. It's not an either/or situation; you are allowed to have Reinhart and other good players. This thread basically asks at what price point would you reinvest in other assets rather than sign Reinhart. If Reinhart is too much at $7 million, find me a team that does value him at $7 million who is going to give you a better asset. Come up with a reasonable scenario. They must be out there, but they aren't easy and they aren't obvious. You aren't getting Tarasenko for him one for one. But I think you know that, despite the  rhetoric.

And to answer your opening question, he produces points, a skill highly valued by NHL GMs, if the contracts they hand out mean anything. But you already knew that too.

DO BETTER (I think this is fun too, and I can do it all day)

3 hours ago, Southtown Tommy said:

He is good, but this team desperately needs GREAT! Botteril's approach must be to find another center that can drive play. A hockey trade involving many parts, including Reinhart, would be one way to do it. His value is pretty high at the moment - strike while the iron is hot!

This is an excellent idea. If the Canucks want to ship us Petterson, or the Isles Barzal or the Bolts Point for a package built around Reinhart, fill your boots.

I suspect the great players won't be available.

Edited January 22, 2020 by dudacek

[dudacek]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Skinner is already overpaid. If we pay Sam what some of you suggest we will never be able to build a winner. 

and we've already seen what he does on a line without Jack - nothing. 

Randall addressed the bolded thoroughly up-thread. Did you miss it, or are you just ignoring it because the facts don't support your case?

Who are Sam's peers around the league, players of similar age we can slide into his spot capable of similar production?

Edited January 22, 2020 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

On 1/15/2020 at 11:06 AM, Randall Flagg said:

We can check and see  if this has merit or if you're just making stuff up - in the last 3 seasons, Reinhart has spent 38% of his ES time away from Eichel. 

He has 25 goals and 67 points with Eichel and 20 goals and 21 assists without him. Prorating these rates out for a full season, we would have: 

With Eichel: 82 games, ~16 even strength goals, ~42 even strength points
Without Eichel: 82 games, ~21 even strength goals, ~43 even strength points

This includes the time he spent centering Griffith and Moulson in 2017-18, as well as his stretches with last year's Sobotka and Sheary/Rodrigues. So I don't really buy your random guessing. 

It makes sense that his assists spike with a guy like Jack and his shot (as well as Olofsson/Skinner when he's up there) but when he's NOT with Jack his linemates have generally been horrendous, aside from stints with ROR in the first year of this analysis (which was his worst ES year of the 3 by FAR, and so doesn't contribute heavily). 

These statistics indicate why we were so anxious to see Reinhart drive his own line in the first place, and the fact that I'm seeing the conclusion that he can't being drawn from the simple fact that our coaches don't DO it rather than actually seeing what happens, I am inclined to ignore the rest of what the people saying this have to say on the subject

By the way, Sam averages ~15-20 PP points per season in the last 3, and there's no need to remove Eichel from the equation there, so that gives us the ~60 point player we see in that span. And he's gotten better at piling up points every season of his career and will approach 70 this one

 

35 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Skinner is already overpaid. If we pay Sam what some of you suggest we will never be able to build a winner. 

and we've already seen what he does on a line without Jack - nothing. 

Survey says... bullcrap. 

To quote Pi, "do better".

[GASabresIUFAN]

This whole question is moot.  He is being re-signed.  The athletic has a recent article about Sam and where he stands and it’s pretty much as a top 40-50 forward.  

Considering there are about 400 forwards in the NHL on 31 teams he is next to impossible to replace and receive equal value in trade.  

 

[Zamboni]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 

Survey says... bullcrap. 

To quote Pi, "do better".

Not only that but the claim is hypocritical. He complains how fans who like Reinhart as a player exaggerate and give him “undo” praise. Sooooo what would saying He does “nothing” be? Hmmm .... good grief.

And it’s so terrible to express ones opinion and say I don’t take certain fans opinion on Reinhart seriously? It’s shake your head loony talk IMO.

[dudacek]

22 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Not only that but the claim is hypocritical. He complains how fans who like Reinhart as a player exaggerate and give him “undo” praise. Sooooo what would saying He does “nothing” be? Hmmm .... good grief.

And it’s so terrible to express ones opinion and say I don’t take certain fans opinion on Reinhart seriously? It’s shake your head loony talk IMO.

Pi lives to stir the pot and Forever's Reinhart takes are jaundiced enough to sometimes make me wonder if there is something personal behind them.

I haven't engaged in a Reinhart discussion all season, I've even agreed with some of those calling out his play, which has featured far too many soft passes. But every once in a while someone has to expose some of the BS that has popped up in this thread for exactly what it is with something more than head shaking and hot takes, if only to keep up the standards of the board.

We can't always leave the heavy lifting up to @LGR4GM.

Edited January 22, 2020 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

Ideally Sam would have become the 2nd center he was drafted to be.  Instead he is a 1st line winger. 

Ideally he would be faster, but he isn’t slow and is rarely out of position.  He has also improved his two hundred foot game.  

I’d like him to create more on offense, but he has stepped up with VO and Skinner out.  

I’m not sure what people want.  I suggest they go back and read his pre draft scouting reports.  He is what they said he was.  High IQ, excellent passer, see the ice great, and makes smart plays with the puck.  He is actually scoring more goals then I thought he would.

 

 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Skinner is already overpaid. If we pay Sam what some of you suggest we will never be able to build a winner. 

and we've already seen what he does on a line without Jack - nothing. 

Over the past couple of seasons, Sam has been just as productive when not on the ice with Eichel.

[pi2000]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Speaking of garbage counter arguments. Tarensenko signed his deal in july 2015. The salary cap was 71.4 million. That was worth 10.5% of the cap. 

Paying Reinhart 7.5 now equals roughly 9% of the cap depending on how high it goes next season. That's less than tarensenko. Tarensenko btw was coming off a 73 point season. Reinhart is on pace for 69 points. 

So yea... that's probably about right for a top 40 forward. 

Do better. 

This is a good argument.  7.5 doesn't sound so bad when you put it that way.  I might actually be OK with...... hahahahahah, nope! 

7.5 is way too mich for a Derek Plante skillset.

Tarasenko is a skilled ALL-STAR sniper, Reinhart is skilled at falling down if you skate by him fast enough.

How many All-Star games is it now for Reinhart? 

Call me greedy but I want an All-Star next to Jack.... not a Fall-Star.

DO

BETTER

[pi2000]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Skinner is already overpaid.

Skinner is paid for what he can do next to Jack, that's score 40 goals on the regular.   They should've stapled Skinner to Jack's back pocket this season, with the way Jack is playing he'd be on pace foe a casual 50 rips.   JBOT should be fired for this alone.

[pi2000]

41 minutes ago, Curt said:

Over the past couple of seasons, Sam has been just as unproductive when on the ice with Eichel.

fixed...

What you're saying he's Sam is holding Jack back?   

That I believe.   

DEW

BUTTER

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

High IQ, excellent passer, see the ice great, and makes smart plays with the puck.

 

 

If this is true then where are all the assists?   With those skills he should have 60 assists on that line, he's nowhere close to that.

He's averaging 0.3 assists per game in his career.

Not good enough...  DUE BATTER