Krueger: No numbered lines. Just roles.

[SDS]

Fans here are still talking about numbered lines. RK says he doesn’t think that way. Is everyone dismissing that as coach speak or does he have a point? 

[dudacek]

I’ve been saying it on here for years, so no argument from me.

Lines are about chemistry and situations.

[bunomatic]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

Fans here are still talking about numbered lines. RK says he doesn’t think that way. Is everyone dismissing that as coach speak or does he have a point? 

I think he’s honestly trying to make each and every player believe he’s as important as the next guy despite minutes or role. In the same way as he’s taking weight off of Jacks shoulders by spreading the leadership around. Its easier to get a 100% buy in from the room. 

[In The Buff]

Yeah numbered lines don't matter as much as the situations & performance. But you will see a disparity with the lines in ice time. Theoretically your #1 line will have more ice time than #2, 2 than 3 etc.

I dont get too hung up on who is where personally. I just want to see all 4 lines rolling in game & being effective. Whatever combinations achieve those results, so be it.

[TrueBlueGED]

80% coachspeak. I have no doubt that coaches don't just toss up lines 1-4 on the white board the way fans do. However, I bet those "situations" correlate quite heavily to what fans do with their numbering schemes.

[Two or less]

I feel like Kreuger isn't the only one who doesn't think of it as lines 1-4. Paul Hamilton mentions this point over and over again on WGR.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I’ve been saying it on here for years, so no argument from me.

Lines are about chemistry and situations.

Well there's obviously a top line, that's wherever Jack is playing. After that though, ya, seems pretty situational. 

[PerreaultForever]

From what I've seen so far it seems obvious Kreuger is trying to build a culture around the idea of "team" and not individual. This, imo, is long over due and definitely the right idea. As such, ice time should vary by the situations and the opponents and by which line (on any given night) is performing best. But yes, as mentioned above, it's definitely about chemistry. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, bunomatic said:

I think he’s honestly trying to make each and every player believe he’s as important as the next guy despite minutes or role. In the same way as he’s taking weight off of Jacks shoulders by spreading the leadership around. Its easier to get a 100% buy in from the room. 

Kreuger's philosophies are what make the difference. The way you treat people is relative to their performance. 

Who's more important.....Jack who produces offence and gets 21:00 minutes of ice time or Z and Larry who shut down other teams PP? They are equally important to the teams success and I think sometimes people tend to forget that. 

Also, letting the players have some freedom to be creative and have some fun like they did on the pond when they were a kid means a lot to them. The "trust" that comes with that freedom is valuable 

Have you ever had a job where you felt unappreciated? Had certain procedures to follow that you knew could be better? Ever have that thought that the people that set those guidelines should have to do your job for just 1 day and see what it's like? Maybe no one ever says "thank you" when you go above and beyond on a regular basis....but they want to write you up when you screw up just a little bit? These are the things that Ralph tries to avoid by making all the players feel equally important and acknowledge each one for their effort in the role assigned to them. They understand what their role is and how to attain the goals set forth within that role. The rewards are coming in the win column and the fact that it's a much friendlier atmosphere to be in. 

I think culture change is a real thing....especially when it creates a positive influence.

[triumph_communes]

What fans call the 4th line has been getting 2nd/3rd line minutes in each game. Just no PP time.  Same with D pairings- journalists are too afraid to put McCabe-Risto as first pairing, but they are employed just like it.  Scandella-Joki are out there whenever Eichel is. Numbering the lines is more of the archaic system. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by triumph_communes

[French Collection]

If an entire game was ES while rolling 4 lines the ice time would be closer. There would be some situational differences and some possible match up scenarios leading to imbalances.

Special teams probably makes the largest overall difference.

The hottest line in any given game should get a bump up, a good coach will sense that and adjust.

[SwampD]

So, I guess we need to change the name of the Sobotka thread, then.

[...]

He might not rank them (which I doubt), but he still has to identify them. Is there any question the Eichel line is the team's top ranking line?  The only difference I would place is on the third and fourth, where the roles, and therefore the skill-set, are very different. Would I want Mitts and Sheary on the PK? Absolutely not. Does that make Z and Larry lesser players than Mitts and Sheary?  No, not when the measure is effectiveness.

[Taro T]

10 hours ago, SDS said:

Fans here are still talking about numbered lines. RK says he doesn’t think that way. Is everyone dismissing that as coach speak or does he have a point? 

Well, whatever you want to call it, the Eichel line will get the most ES time by far and towards the end of periods Skinner will sub into Olofsson's role.  That is the 1st line.

The 2nd scoring line centered by Johansson, will get comparable ES ice time to the 4th (per MSG broadcasts) line centered by Larsson.

And the 3rd scoring line will get less ES ice time at home and significantly less on the road unless the Sabres are rolling over the opponent like they did the Devils at home.

So, call them whatever you want, they have their roles.  It seems with the elimination of the goon/ energy line and the changing role of that line that got the least ice time to be a 3rd scoring line, that line has been renamed the 3rd line, and the checking line that was formerly called the 3rd line now has become the 4th line.

So, the scoring lines get listed 1st, then checking/ energy lines.  As stated above (by dudacek?) we've had this discussion far more often than once the past few years regarding whether to number lines by role, usage, or ice time.  Continuing to identify them by # seems to be fine for now as pretty much everybody knows that we're referring to Larsson's line when we say "the 4th" line and Mittelstadt's when we refer to the 3rd line even though unless the 2nd PP unit is getting a ton of work and the Sabres stay out of the box, there is no way that Mitts sees more ice than Larry does.

And even historically the designations haven't been completely black and white.  The Luce-Ramsay-Gare line was the checking line but many games it rivaled the French Connection for output.  And the Drury line was the 1B (or was it 1A?) line for scoring and also the checking line and the Vanek-Roy-Afinogenov line was clearly the 3rd scoring line and labeled as the 3rd line.

So, it is just coach speak, but he does have a point.  And if the coach speak helps him reinforce within the dressing room that each player has his role and they win as a team, can't see an issue with him listing them however he likes nor in his labeling them however he likes.

Not even getting into the team listing Dahlin-Miller as the #1 pair, though they've ended up 3rd in ice time to McCabe-Ristolainen getting the most ice time.  So, the Sabres are seemingly listing the pairings by offensive ability, though they more historically get listed by which scoring line they face / how much ice time they get.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Taro T

[bob_sauve28]

10 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

80% coachspeak. I have no doubt that coaches don't just toss up lines 1-4 on the white board the way fans do. However, I bet those "situations" correlate quite heavily to what fans do with their numbering schemes.

I'll go with 50% coach speak. Obviously we have a top line, but he really wants everyone to feel they play an important role. 

 

I just hope he doesn't start handing out participation trophies, lol. 

[Randall Flagg]

1st/2nd/3rd/4th will still always be a handy way to talk about them, especially in a message board format where line construction always takes place in the following form:
xxx - xxx - xxx
xxx - xxx - xxx
xxx - xxx - xxx
xxx - xxx - xxx

It's an easy way for everyone to be on the same page. I don't think Ralph is doing anything here that other coaches don't also do in reality 

[...]

38 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

It's an easy way for everyone to be on the same page. I don't think Ralph is doing anything here that other coaches don't also do in reality 

Maybe. Maybe not...

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

48 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

1st/2nd/3rd/4th will still always be a handy way to talk about them, especially in a message board format where line construction always takes place in the following form:
xxx - xxx - xxx
xxx - xxx - xxx
xxx - xxx - xxx
xxx - xxx - xxx

It's an easy way for everyone to be on the same page. I don't think Ralph is doing anything here that other coaches don't also do in reality 

[steveoath]

4 hours ago, ... said:

He might not rank them (which I doubt), but he still has to identify them.

I think he referred to reach line by the name of the centre in the interview.

 

[MattPie]

6 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I'll go with 50% coach speak. Obviously we have a top line, but he really wants everyone to feel they play an important role. 

 

I just hope he doesn't start handing out participation trophies, lol. 

Yeah, what were Boomers thinking when they came up with that!

[OhMyDahlin]

19 hours ago, SDS said:

Fans here are still talking about numbered lines. RK says he doesn’t think that way. Is everyone dismissing that as coach speak or does he have a point? 

It's nothing more than coach speak to keep everyone thinking they are all on the same level..."nobody is more important than the team."

 

He even says, "My brain just doesn't really work that way, trying to make sure that everybody understands they're important."

He has always avoided ranking players, because everyone is important to team success.

Edited October 7, 2019 by OhMyDahlin