What do you need to see before you're totally bought in?

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

20 minutes ago, Curt said:

I don’t agree with this.  I don’t think most of Dahlin’s mistakes have come from being tentative.  It’s mostly high risk plays that don’t work out or just straight up fumbling the puck.

2 hours ago, Cascade Youth said:

Dahlin clearly is thinking too much out there - he is questioning his instincts and playing tentatively as a result.  I put that largely on the coaches.  They’ve stripped him of his uptempo instinctual play.

Or maybe a little of both with some of the rest of the league figuring out how to anticipate his moves thrown in too.

[Doohicksie]

3 minutes ago, Curt said:

It’s mostly high risk plays that don’t work out or just straight up fumbling the puck.

Especially his defensive gaffes.  I remember one from last year where a puck was popped high in the air.  The conservative move would have been to play the opposing player coming in, but he tried to bat it forward with his glove.  He missed it, gave the other team a breakaway and they scored.  He does too many things like that.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

7 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Especially his defensive gaffes.  I remember one from last year where a puck was popped high in the air.  The conservative move would have been to play the opposing player coming in, but he tried to bat it forward with his glove.  He missed it, gave the other team a breakaway and they scored.  He does too many things like that.

Depending on what you mean by "play the opposing player coming in"...couldn't that be considered interference?

[Wyldnwoody44]

I need to see this team pull it's head out of its behind, man up, play together and start making games meaningful again. 

 

We have a very very passionate fanbase. But the team is starting to lose us a bit. Something needs to happen, soon

[Doohicksie]

30 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Depending on what you mean by "play the opposing player coming in"...couldn't that be considered interference?

No, I mean skate in with him and cover him and don't worry about the puck.  As it was, he was caught flat footed with an opposing player closing in on him.  I'm all for playing the pass, but if there's any chance you might miss it (and he did), you have to cover the guy coming in.

[darksabre]

3 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

I need to see this team pull it's head out of its behind, man up, play together and start making games meaningful again. 

 

We have a very very passionate fanbase. But the team is starting to lose us a bit. Something needs to happen, soon

Botterill needs to make some moves. We just cannot go through this season with the roster as it is. Still too many plugs filling out roles in the bottom 9.

The defensive depth we have should be satisfactory but we need some better forwards. We see the D pairings regressing as the forwards stop being effective and opponents figure that out.

[Wyldnwoody44]

15 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Botterill needs to make some moves. We just cannot go through this season with the roster as it is. Still too many plugs filling out roles in the bottom 9.

The defensive depth we have should be satisfactory but we need some better forwards. We see the D pairings regressing as the forwards stop being effective and opponents figure that out.

Seriously, what happened. We started with good forecheck, good sustained pressure, many shots. The theory that players had specific spaces. To be at... That all disappears....are they tired already. Why can't we adjust 

[darksabre]

4 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

Seriously, what happened. We started with good forecheck, good sustained pressure, many shots. The theory that players had specific spaces. To be at... That all disappears....are they tired already. Why can't we adjust 

Quality of competition seems to be a factor. I think it's hard to out work better teams if you're just not good enough. 

[LTS]

6 hours ago, Cascade Youth said:

Dahlin clearly is thinking too much out there - he is questioning his instincts and playing tentatively as a result.  I put that largely on the coaches.  They’ve stripped him of his uptempo instinctual play.

Clearly. I mean RK preached about supporting the creativity of players. He doesn’t want them thinking too much. They barely use video review. I’m going to have to say that your narrative is not going to hold up.  Dahlin is lost... that’s not coaching. His confidence is crap and he’s trying to do too much.  His turnovers are largely when he tries to hold the puck To retain possession. It’s admirable, but the probability of maintaining possession in those situations is too low and he’s not recognizing it.  That’s not coaching... that’s all the player. He needs to relax and not try to be more than he can be. 

[Gatorman0519]

The Stanley Cup LoL 

[LGR4GM]

17 hours ago, LTS said:

Clearly. I mean RK preached about supporting the creativity of players. He doesn’t want them thinking too much. They barely use video review. I’m going to have to say that your narrative is not going to hold up.  Dahlin is lost... that’s not coaching. His confidence is crap and he’s trying to do too much.  His turnovers are largely when he tries to hold the puck To retain possession. It’s admirable, but the probability of maintaining possession in those situations is too low and he’s not recognizing it.  That’s not coaching... that’s all the player. He needs to relax and not try to be more than he can be. 

Maybe Dahlin needs some video review. 

[LTS]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Maybe Dahlin needs some video review. 

He might. I’m sure it’s available, just the RK isn’t forcing the sessions on the team, or wasn’t. Who knows what’s happening now.

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, LTS said:

He might. I’m sure it’s available, just the RK isn’t forcing the sessions on the team, or wasn’t. Who knows what’s happening now.

Idk but he needs to adapt in a hurry. The team is playing like garbage, again. 

[bunomatic]

I seem to remember Ralph saying something to the effect that we’re not going to confuse these guys with too much structure we’re going to let their genius ( that was his word ) and hockey instinct take over. Imo when you are playing a team that has structure and has been playing those structured systems for a number of years pitting a team of players who’s only structure has been losing and saying we’re going to let these mostly young guys fly by the wire and figure it out as they go, I’m not sure that will work. With real experienced players maybe. I think this may be a weakness of Ralphs plan. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by bunomatic

[LTS]

1 hour ago, bunomatic said:

I seem to remember Ralph saying something to the effect that we’re not going to confuse these guys with too much structure we’re going to let their genius ( that was his word ) and hockey instinct take over. Imo when you are playing a team that has structure and has been playing those structured systems for a number of years pitting a team of players who’s only structure has been losing and saying we’re going to let these mostly young guys fly by the wire and figure it out as they go, I’m not sure that will work. With real experienced players maybe. I think this may be a weakness of Ralphs plan. 

Perhaps... we have to wait and see. One possible scenario, letting the team fail on their own without the structure so they can better understand structure when it’s applied. I’m not saying I believe it... I just allow for the possibility.  It’s not about having it all figured out before you start, it’s about fixing what breaks when it happens and moving everything in the right direction.

 

[Thorner]

On 11/9/2019 at 8:26 PM, SwampD said:

I'm still bought in.

I love how other teams can have slumps, but when it's us, it's a reversion to who we "really" are. SM FN H.

We've played 2 games in the past week and we're still in the upper tier of our conference.

Win will win again.

We will win often.

 

Well, when the team has been bad for a decade, the burden of proof is kinda on them. When then slumps have indeed been who they really are, for that long, of course people are gonna think the latest one is indeed a truth reveal. They haven't given us a reason to think otherwise for so long. Not to mention, the slump and results yet again reflecting the underlying numbers. 

And we aren't in the top tier of the conference, we are 9th in the conference in points percentage. Being outside the playoffs is lower tier (16 teams)

On 11/11/2019 at 7:10 AM, LTS said:

They messed up Dahlin? His decision making on the ice is poor and much worse than last year. How do “they” get the blame?  I mean if you want to say he should sit a game that’s fine, but I don’t think “they” are the reason he’s playing so poorly. 
 

I’m not sure who “they” are specifically. I assume you meant the organization as a whole.

But what's the variable? Considering how good Dahlin was year 1, the affect the new system/coaching are having should at least be considered as much as "19 just looks bad on him". 

On 11/11/2019 at 9:08 AM, Curt said:

I don’t agree with this.  I don’t think most of Dahlin’s mistakes have come from being tentative.  It’s mostly high risk plays that don’t work out or just straight up fumbling the puck.

Fumbling the puck due to indecision, being tentative, is what I am seeing. 

On 11/11/2019 at 2:22 PM, LTS said:

Clearly. I mean RK preached about supporting the creativity of players. He doesn’t want them thinking too much. They barely use video review. I’m going to have to say that your narrative is not going to hold up.  Dahlin is lost... that’s not coaching. His confidence is crap and he’s trying to do too much.  His turnovers are largely when he tries to hold the puck To retain possession. It’s admirable, but the probability of maintaining possession in those situations is too low and he’s not recognizing it.  That’s not coaching... that’s all the player. He needs to relax and not try to be more than he can be. 

What is a coach, and specifically the master motivator Ralph, here for if not to to enhance confidence? To put players in a position where there's the best chance of a positive result happening? This isn't to alleviate the blame from Dahlin, his bad moments are still on him, in the end. But the coach is supposed to add value, and their approach to Dahlin may need to be addressed. 

[Taro T]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

Well, when the team has been bad for a decade, the burden of proof is kinda on them. When then slumps have indeed been who they really are, for that long, of course people are gonna think the latest one is indeed a truth reveal. They haven't given us a reason to think otherwise for so long. Not to mention, the slump and results yet again reflecting the underlying numbers. 

And we aren't in the top tier of the conference, we are 9th in the conference in points percentage. Being outside the playoffs is lower tier (16 teams)

But what's the variable? Considering how good Dahlin was year 1, the affect the new system/coaching are having should at least be considered as much as "19 just looks bad on him". 

Fumbling the puck due to indecision, being tentative, is what I am seeing. 

What is a coach, and specifically the master motivator Ralph, here for if not to to enhance confidence? To put players in a position where there's the best chance of a positive result happening? This isn't to alleviate the blame from Dahlin, his bad moments are still on him, in the end. But the coach is supposed to add value, and their approach to Dahlin may need to be addressed. 

The burden of proof is definitely on them.  But there actually are signs it isn't as bad as it was and they really are 1-2 forwards from ending this ridiculously long drought.  There have been a couple of truly bad games, but those are finally clearly in the minority. 

And, though they aren't a top team, they aren't a bottom feeder either.  They are what they are, mediocre.  Which sadly IS an improvement over past years.  (And only 1-2 moves from being good.)

As to Dahlin fumbling the puck, he actually seems to be working past that.  The Sabres finally get away from a murderers row and can see if he really is getting away from the sophomore ooopsies.  I expect he is and getting Montour back will go a long way towards getting away from them.  Much like Tallinder was both Lydman's and Myers' security blanket.

Not sure how much more Krueger can do to minimize Dahlin's brain farts.  He hasn't even played a minute of PK yet and still gets key offensive minutes and now that their best D-man is healthy is getting paired with him.  And Ras will work through them and still be the player you expect him to be.  (He just very likely won't be their best D-man THIS season.). (Is what it is.  He isn't the D-man McDavid, but he's ahead of darn near everybody not named Orr at this age.  Enjoy watching him grow.  I will.)

[LTS]

7 hours ago, Thorny said:

Well, when the team has been bad for a decade, the burden of proof is kinda on them. When then slumps have indeed been who they really are, for that long, of course people are gonna think the latest one is indeed a truth reveal. They haven't given us a reason to think otherwise for so long. Not to mention, the slump and results yet again reflecting the underlying numbers. 

And we aren't in the top tier of the conference, we are 9th in the conference in points percentage. Being outside the playoffs is lower tier (16 teams)

But what's the variable? Considering how good Dahlin was year 1, the affect the new system/coaching are having should at least be considered as much as "19 just looks bad on him". 

Fumbling the puck due to indecision, being tentative, is what I am seeing. 

What is a coach, and specifically the master motivator Ralph, here for if not to to enhance confidence? To put players in a position where there's the best chance of a positive result happening? This isn't to alleviate the blame from Dahlin, his bad moments are still on him, in the end. But the coach is supposed to add value, and their approach to Dahlin may need to be addressed. 

A few things here.

1. The first attempt to motivate or change a person may not be successful.

2. Not every person will respond to everyone.

3. Not everyone wants help.

Bottom line for me is.. Dahlin is scary bad right now. Sitting him would not be the worst idea. One game, two games...might not take much more.

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, LTS said:

A few things here.

1. The first attempt to motivate or change a person may not be successful.

2. Not every person will respond to everyone.

3. Not everyone wants help.

Bottom line for me is.. Dahlin is scary bad right now. Sitting him would not be the worst idea. One game, two games...might not take much more.

You saw him live both games last weekend.  Did you think / feel he was as bad as he'd been the 2 prior weeks?  Watching on TV, thought he was playing better; but believe seeing in person you get a better feel as you get to see what the camera doesn't catch.  (And, yes, saw the horrible turnover on Saturday; but, even with that still felt he was almost back to his January level of play.)

[steveoath]

What we need is botteril to get his finger out his arse and make a trade for top 6 player or two.

[dudacek]

9 hours ago, LTS said:

 

Bottom line for me is.. Dahlin is scary bad right now. Sitting him would not be the worst idea. One game, two games...might not take much more.

12 points in 17 games is not scary bad, it’s actually top 20 in the league.

For all his foibles on defence, he’s -3, and been on the ice for 11 more shot attempts against than for, pretty mediocre, but not scary bad. 

He’s made 13 giveaways, 78th worst in the league among defencemen. Karlsson and Doughty are tied for the lead with 30. Heiskanen has 24, Chabot 25, Josi 23, Carlson 22.

He needs to be better, but the negatives are being way overhyped - the product of a traumatized fan base overeager to anoint its next failed saviour.

Rasmus Dahlin is fine.

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by dudacek

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

12 points in 17 games is not scary bad, it’s actually top 20 in the league.

For all his foibles on defence, he’s -3, and been on the ice for 11 more shot attempts against than for, pretty mediocre, but not scary bad. 

He’s made 13 giveaways, 78th worst in the league. Karlsson and Doughty are tied for the lead with 30. Heiskanen has 24, Chabot 25, Josi 23, Carlson 22.

He needs to be better, but the negatives are being way overhyped - the product of a fan base overeager to find its next failed saviour.

Rasmus Dahlin is fine.

 

Thank you.

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

12 points in 17 games is not scary bad, it’s actually top 20 in the league.

For all his foibles on defence, he’s -3, and been on the ice for 11 more shot attempts against than for, pretty mediocre, but not scary bad. 

He’s made 13 giveaways, 78th worst in the league among defencemen. Karlsson and Doughty are tied for the lead with 30. Heiskanen has 24, Chabot 25, Josi 23, Carlson 22.

He needs to be better, but the negatives are being way overhyped - the product of a traumatized fan base overeager to anoint its next failed saviour.

Rasmus Dahlin is fine.

 

?

[LTS]

On 11/13/2019 at 2:54 AM, Taro T said:

You saw him live both games last weekend.  Did you think / feel he was as bad as he'd been the 2 prior weeks?  Watching on TV, thought he was playing better; but believe seeing in person you get a better feel as you get to see what the camera doesn't catch.  (And, yes, saw the horrible turnover on Saturday; but, even with that still felt he was almost back to his January level of play.)

I only saw him the first night.  I don't think much has changed for him since pre-season when he was seeing the bench because of his turnovers.  He is, at times, trying to retain possession in the defensive zone rather than chipping it out.  It results in turnovers and those end up in the net.  Other teams are trying to get him to be the one handling the puck and using the 2 man forecheck to get him to cough it up.  Kind of like blitzing a young QB, you hope for them to panic.

As for positioning, he's a little loose on it.  I seem him too far up the ice at times and rushing to get back.  Now, I've seen that from a few Sabres D so I think Krueger is pushing that, but Dahlin does not seem to be able to get back as well as a few others at this point.  

None of this gives me panic.  The first issue is a byproduct of what other teams are doing to the Sabres.  It seems to be the trend across the league on how to handle the change in style of play.  More teams are pushing the concept of get the puck up the ice fast, so now more teams defend by trying to drop back and cover those quick/longer breakout passes.  I need to watch some more games but I've noticed this in a few games this season (multiple teams, not just Sabres games).  The concept is to try and 2-1-2 forecheck but if the players don't think it's there then it's revert to an almost trap style 1-4 or 1-3-1 to slow up the breakout and compress the ice.

 

[rickshaw]

Revisiting this thread. Team stops 6 game losing streak. That’s good but honestly I wasn’t impressed with them against a tired Ottawa team. If not for Jack they lose another one. 
I need to see Jack play like this 90% of the time, not 60-70 (not suggesting he scored four a game).

I need to see 55 traded. I need to see 21 waived. I need to see more from the bottom 6. I think Lazar needs a serious look.

I need to see the losing stop at 3 games not 6. It won’t get them into the playoffs. We all know that. I believe they are a better team with a far superior coach but it still needs tweaking.