What do you need to see before you're totally bought in?

[phil_soisson]

The team appears better, and Ralph Krueger is a renaissance man in a city having its own renaissance. It's a long season; there will be losses, disappointment, and doubt at times, but it's a promising start. Bought in? Playoffs!

[sabills]

Call me a pessimist, but I'm just a man who's been hurt too much before. I'll buy if they're still playing like this in January. Not necessarily dominating every game, but being good and winning most games, all while playing this up tempo sort of game. Until I see some sustained success I'll assume its all still a mirage.

[Taro T]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I've been bought in since Jbot was hired.  I just needed the rest of y'all to catch up.

Says the man with 2 "J bott do something" threads. ?

?

[LGR4GM]

This team needs to be a playoff team at the All Star break. If they aren't why should I believe they aren't just the same team from the last 4 years?

[Skibum]

A 10-game win str- ... Never mind.

[Taro T]

Been very schizophrenic about these guys this off-season.  Wanted to believe, but 8 years of bad hockey with several of them nearly unwatchable made that a less than optimal plan especially as they still left (to this day) a hole on the 2nd line.

Krueger has said all the right things, and he's gotten backing from a lot of sources with almost no negatives said about him.  But it's fairly easy to say the right things.  It's not as easy to walk the talk.

The preseason signs were encouraging, but mixed.

But, the way they've come out of the gate, this team really has bought the Ralph Krueger Kool-Aid and so have I (sometime during that opening home game).  This team IS different and in a way we haven't seen since Drury-Briere.

They come out of the gate flying from the 1st shift.  When adversity strikes (an early goal against in the 2nd both games), they just put the foot back down on the petal.  The 2nd period has been a killer for a while for this team.  But not this year, not yet anyway, and I doubt it will be regularly bad for them this season because they have an implementation plan on how to play the entire game.

Don't known that they can win enough to make the playoffs should injuries inevitably hit, but know they will be playing hard all year.  Don't know that some of the older guys won't wear down before the season's done (nor that kids like Mitts won't either), but next year they'll have gone through this season once and will know what to expect and can plan for it. They'll also have shed some guys that can't keep the pace the full year if that happens as a lot of contracts come off the books.

I'd like to say, too bad Brandon was here when Botterill made his 1st coaching hire, but they probably don't get Dahlin if he isn't there whispering in the Pegulas' ears.

Still believe Botterill has been too patient on a couple of fronts, but if this team can stay entertaining this year, willing to cut him slack on it.

What will it take to stay on board?  Just an honest focused effort like the last 2 games.  It shouldn't be a high bar, but for at least the last 3 years, it was.

[Weave]

It’s hard for me to expect that the relatively small changes up front made that much difference.  Certainly it wasn’t expected by most here.

Which means we have to believe that this much performance change is the result of the defense or the coach.  Given that we still have 4 of 6 defenders from most of last season, and 2 of them were among the most maligned players on the team, I cannot say I expected huge gains there.

And that leaves coaching. Given that my belief was that we had player problems greater than coach problems over the last 7 seasons, I have to wonder if this is sustainable.

I’ll need to see consistency.  A good, solid stretch of it.  It may not be until well into the stretch run in the last 1/3 of the season before I’ll be able to be all in.

[NNYSABRESMAN]

I need to see Sobotka in the equipment room sharpening skates!

[nfreeman]

They also haven't yet played a good team that took them seriously. 

But they do look different.  They are faster, they transition from D to counter-attack smoothly and consistently and they play with more skill in the offensive zone.  And they are getting very good goaltending

Adversity will come, possibly as soon as tonight.  Will RK keep them cool and confident?  Or will the fragile little children re-emerge?

It's impossible to know, but the more games they play like the 1st 2, the more used to it they'll get, and they'll start to expect it of themselves and to deliver it more often.

As someone noted upthread I am freaking psyched for the games again.

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

39 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Says the man with 2 "J bott do something" threads. ?

?

I think I started 3 or 4 such threads.  Just because I’ve been critical of moves (or failure to make moves) is different then supporting his overall plan for rebuilding his franchise from the ground up.  To be a blind loyalist is never a good thing.  
 

However, I’m very happy with the direction this franchise is taking.  When he took over we were in cap hell with many horrible contracts, a mediocre poorly coached team, had a terrible farm system and few legit prospects to go with poor drafting.  After this season nearly all the bad contracts (except KO) will finally be gone.  The Athletic recently wrote we had the 2nd best core group 23 and under in the NHL.  The Amerks have made the playoffs each of the last two years.  We have by my count 11 legit NHL prospects including a top 6 forward (Cozens), a franchise goalie (UPL) and 4 potential top 4 D (Joker, Samuelsson, Johnson and Laaksonen). We might possibly finally be well coached.  We have 5/6 of a top flight top 6, have enough depth up front to role 4 lines and have 9 legit NHL D to rotate including a Norris caliber player in Dahlin.  
 

I don’t think we are a playoff team yet, but we’re close.

Edited October 7, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[MattPie]

1 hour ago, phil_soisson said:

The team appears better, and Ralph Krueger is a renaissance man in a city having its own renaissance. It's a long season; there will be losses, disappointment, and doubt at times, but it's a promising start. Bought in? Playoffs!

Forget you man, 72-0-10 (I don't consider OTLs true losses since they almost maintain playoff pace on points).

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

46 minutes ago, Weave said:

It’s hard for me to expect that the relatively small changes up front made that much difference.  Certainly it wasn’t expected by most here.

Which means we have to believe that this much performance change is the result of the defense or the coach.  Given that we still have 4 of 6 defenders from most of last season, and 2 of them were among the most maligned players on the team, I cannot say I expected huge gains there.

And that leaves coaching. Given that my belief was that we had player problems greater than coach problems over the last 7 seasons, I have to wonder if this is sustainable.

I’ll need to see consistency.  A good, solid stretch of it.  It may not be until well into the stretch run in the last 1/3 of the season before I’ll be able to be all in.

It may seem that way, but think about it....

Adding VO might just be like adding another Skinner (and for less than $1M for now).

Adding Johansson could very well fill any possible void left from Berglund and pushes Mitts into a much more suited role. I know that not many expected much from Bergy but it's still a bigger move than some people are giving credit for. Is he a Malkin or Couturier or (fill in your favorite 2C)? Maybe not but still fills a much need void even if temporary.

Adding MoJo also keeps us from any bad move ...like trying Reinhart at 2C or E-Rod or Heaven forbid Vlad.

To me, the only real question is the addition of Vesey. This might turn out at best a Pommer replacement and at worst a place holder until someone "earns" that spot.

So while I agree with you that technically they were small changes, they are the type of changes that could pay big dividends. 

[DaveSnuggerud]

I want to see their response to a bad 10 game stretch coupled with some injuries.  If they can bounce back without falling into previous patterns, like taking the remainder of the season off, I'll buy in some more.  

[French Collection]

As stated earlier by some, I’ve been in since ‘75.

However, this edition has my attention and think they are playoff contenders

[Taro T]

39 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think I started 3 or 4 such threads.  Just because I’ve been critical of moves (or failure to make moves) is different then supporting his overall plan for rebuilding his franchise from the ground up.  To be a blind loyalist is never a good thing.  
 

However, I’m very happy with the direction this franchise is taking.  When he took over we were in cap hell with many horrible contracts, a mediocre poorly coached team, had a terrible farm system and few legit prospects to go with poor drafting.  After this season nearly all the bad contracts (except KO) will finally be gone.  The Athletic recently wrote we had the 2nd best core group 23 and under in the NHL.  The Amerks have made the playoffs each of the last two years.  We have by my count 11 legit NHL prospects including a top 6 forward (Cozens), a franchise goalie (UPL) and 4 potential top 4 D (Joker, Samuelsson, Johnson and Laaksonen). We might possibly finally be well coached.  We have 5/6 of a top flight top 6, have enough depth up front to role 4 lines and have 9 legit NHL D to rotate including a Norris caliber player in Dahlin.  
 

I don’t think we are a playoff team yet, but we’re close.

Yeah, it seems you and I are on the same page more often than not.

I've liked Botterill's direction (quick, hard competing, leaving no space for opponents ideally) and fully agree that such an about face from Murray's direction wouldn't happen quickly.

My main gripe with Botterill (and apparently yours as well) has been that he has been nearly Darcy Regier patient at times and unwilling to make moves that might cost more assets than he wants to give up to advance the timetable on the rebuild.

Ex. Marcus Johansson was available last year and would have been affordable and helpful after Bergland walked.  The Sabres were obviously interested in him, but J Botts was not willing to pay the price (IIRC a 2 & a 5 plus any decrease in value of the Sabres #1 pick from Dylan Cohen to a mid-round 1st due to a better finish) to give a team in 1st some extra ammunition to sneak into the playoffs and gain additional experience.

He reminds me a lot of Beane.  He has his own time line and rating of players and a certain type of player he wants.  And he's willing to lose while making the changes towards the team he wants prior to reaching that date where he expects to compete.  And though he's willing to lose with a roster on paper that might look worse than what he started with, he expects his coach to get more out of them than others expect.  (Beane seems to get that from McDermott; J Botts didn't from Housley, but might from RK.)

Earlier this summer I'd been lamenting that Botterill might have a 5 year time line for beginning to compete.  But the way this team has started out under Krueger, am getting back to believing the plan was to compete year 4 and if they can get a playoff spot year 3, that's great, but not the goal.  The goal is further down the road.  And, as long as they're entertaining and work hard, I'm OK with that.  It's when we watch Spring '19 Sabres hockey that the patience becomes unacceptable.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

It’s hard for me to expect that the relatively small changes up front made that much difference.  Certainly it wasn’t expected by most here.

Which means we have to believe that this much performance change is the result of the defense or the coach.  Given that we still have 4 of 6 defenders from most of last season, and 2 of them were among the most maligned players on the team, I cannot say I expected huge gains there.

And that leaves coaching. Given that my belief was that we had player problems greater than coach problems over the last 7 seasons, I have to wonder if this is sustainable.

I’ll need to see consistency.  A good, solid stretch of it.  It may not be until well into the stretch run in the last 1/3 of the season before I’ll be able to be all in.

You have really added a full line of forwards in MoJo, Olofsson and Vesey.  While they are skating on different lines, they had given the Sabres enough depth to truly role 4 lines for the first time in a decade. While this might now seem like a big change it’s really a huge difference.  It’s allows the staff to slot guys correctly and create better matchups.  These guys have also enhanced the speed, goal scoring ability and overall skill level of the forward group.  
 

Also the improved puck moving ability of the D because of Montour, Joker and Miller has cleared the zone faster so far and given more opportunities up front.  

Changing 25% of the forwards and 1/3 of the D is actually pretty big change.

[Crusader1969]

My buy-in occurred when Dahlin scored off the rush in Pittsburgh 

he had a great rookie year but through 2games it looks like he is ready to carry the team on his back

watch that entire shift on the Okposo goal.  The patience he shows at the point. Twice he is able to use his shiftiness to elude the defender and get his point shot through (the 2nd is tipped by Okposo for a goal) creating scoring chances   

I doubt there any many in the entire league who could have made those plays , let alone any other 19 year old   

Goaltending has to be above avg for the entire season but I believe Dahlin will be main reason that this team becomes competitive this season 

 

 

[LGR4GM]

https://www.nhl.com/video/dahlins-nifty-top-shelf-goal/t-277350912/c-69328603

4 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

My buy-in occurred when Dahlin scored off the rush in Pittsburgh 

he had a great rookie year but through 2games it looks like he is ready to carry the team on his back

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, DaveSnuggerud said:

I want to see their response to a bad 10 game stretch coupled with some injuries.  If they can bounce back without falling into previous patterns, like taking the remainder of the season off, I'll buy in some more.  

Hoping you never get to see that again.

[hsif]

I'd like to see 15 games. I'm not yet convinced that HCRK is a good coach. I am convinced that he is an effective communicator and listener, which will go a long way towards being a good coach. 

The best surprise to me has been Colin Miller. Being from Vegas, we hadn't seen much, but I've liked his play so far.

Biggest fear? How long can Reinhart take that punishment in front of the net? Stay healthy Sam...........stay healthy. 

[LGR4GM]

What do I need before I totally buy in? Espresso. 

[Cheektorado]

3 hours ago, French Collection said:

As stated earlier by some, I’ve been in since ‘75.

However, this edition has my attention and think they are playoff contenders

Since '70 for me.

That being said I'll use a 70's song to say where I'm at.

 

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

Been very schizophrenic about these guys this off-season.  Wanted to believe, but 8 years of bad hockey with several of them nearly unwatchable made that a less than optimal plan especially as they still left (to this day) a hole on the 2nd line.

Krueger has said all the right things, and he's gotten backing from a lot of sources with almost no negatives said about him.  But it's fairly easy to say the right things.  It's not as easy to walk the talk.

The preseason signs were encouraging, but mixed.

But, the way they've come out of the gate, this team really has bought the Ralph Krueger Kool-Aid and so have I (sometime during that opening home game).  This team IS different and in a way we haven't seen since Drury-Briere.

They come out of the gate flying from the 1st shift.  When adversity strikes (an early goal against in the 2nd both games), they just put the foot back down on the petal.  The 2nd period has been a killer for a while for this team.  But not this year, not yet anyway, and I doubt it will be regularly bad for them this season because they have an implementation plan on how to play the entire game.

Don't known that they can win enough to make the playoffs should injuries inevitably hit, but know they will be playing hard all year.  Don't know that some of the older guys won't wear down before the season's done (nor that kids like Mitts won't either), but next year they'll have gone through this season once and will know what to expect and can plan for it. They'll also have shed some guys that can't keep the pace the full year if that happens as a lot of contracts come off the books.

I'd like to say, too bad Brandon was here when Botterill made his 1st coaching hire, but they probably don't get Dahlin if he isn't there whispering in the Pegulas' ears.

Still believe Botterill has been too patient on a couple of fronts, but if this team can stay entertaining this year, willing to cut him slack on it.

What will it take to stay on board?  Just an honest focused effort like the last 2 games.  It shouldn't be a high bar, but for at least the last 3 years, it was.

Bolded is really key for me. Botterill failed to supplement the team through trade last year, after we lost Berglund, back when we were coming off the streak and still had a chance at the playoffs. Apparently he didn’t believe that team was sustainable. And there’s a good argument to say he was right. 

But if the team is playing like this, the signs are there - the underlying numbers say - this is the real Sabres, should injuries strike and we are in a fight for the playoffs, I hope he’s open to making a move to salvage THIS season. 

[Stoner]

15 hours ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

13 hours ago, Tondas said:

I can't buy in because I never bought out.  This is my 50th year watching.  I just enjoy the rides as they come.

I quickly read that as, "I just enjoy the rides home."

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

They come out of the gate flying from the 1st shift.  When adversity strikes (an early goal against in the 2nd both games), they just put the foot back down on the petal.  The 2nd period has been a killer for a while for this team.  But not this year, not yet anyway, and I doubt it will be regularly bad for them this season because they have an implementation plan on how to play the entire game.

I couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt after watching the replay, but I'm pretty sure they had a set play off the opening faceoff of the game against the Devils. Eichel chipped the puck forward (after whiffing on the first try to draw it back); Reinhart was cheating toward the New Jersey end as the puck was dropped, and Olofsson was shot out of a cannon as the puck went back to the Devil D. It didn't fail to work by all that much!

[Ho-Chi-Sock]

5 hours ago, Skibum said:

A 10-game win str- ... Never mind.

Would 11 work?