Sobotka and the 2nd line

[Doohicksie]

Definitely an option.  I'll just wait and see at this point.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Doohickie I agree with your post, but if MoJo and Skinner don’t score and consistently, Sobotka will take the fall and be sent to Siberia.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

Sobotka looked pretty good in game 1...just saying.

Yes. Some people don't want to believe their eyes and prefer to stick to their analytics and views based on the past. I say judge him by THIS season one game at a time. He was just fine in his assigned role last night. 

[pi2000]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yes. Some people don't want to believe their eyes and prefer to stick to their analytics and views based on the past. I say judge him by THIS season one game at a time. He was just fine in his assigned role last night. 

He does some things well, this is true.   

However, for a second line winger, you would hope to find a guy that does those same things well AND has some offensive ability.   

That said.... in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Edited October 4, 2019 by pi2000

[GASabresIUFAN]

52 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You say that like it's a bad thing.

For Sobotka

[LGR4GM]

56 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yes. Some people don't want to believe their eyes and prefer to stick to their analytics and views based on the past. I say judge him by THIS season one game at a time. He was just fine in his assigned role last night. 

I actually thought he brought that line down last night.

[darksabre]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I actually thought he brought that line down last night.

I think it's fair to say that Sobotka did not contribute on the offensive side of the puck despite solid play on the defensive side.

[Scottysabres]

22 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I think it's fair to say that Sobotka did not contribute on the offensive side of the puck despite solid play on the defensive side.

He was decent defensively. He did hound the puck a few times along the right boards in to the offensive zone, but never seemed to maintain or regain control of the puck once pinched.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I think it's fair to say that Sobotka did not contribute on the offensive side of the puck despite solid play on the defensive side.

Sobotka worked hard, but his effort/ (lack of) results were exemplified on a PK in the 3rd period.  He won a board battle low on the right half wall, got challenged again by another forward, won THAT battle too, but not cleanly so the puck rolled to the D rather than out, puck was passed across to the other point man for a very good open shot.

So, he worked hard, but ended up with nothing to show for it but a scoring chance against.

And, holding his own in the defensive zone, doesn't justify putting his horrible hands and slowness to try to enter into opportunities to win contested puck battles (or even get to the puck before it becomes a battle) in the offensive zone on the 2nd scoring line.

His skills (hee, hee) translate better to a 4th line role, but he has not been effective teamed with Girgensons and Larsson.  So, he can't beat out Okposo for that role.

He seems like a bright guy and also seems to be at least an OK, if not a good, teammate.  But the qualities/ skills that got him an NHL job have deteriorated.  And there are at minimum 2 better options to try in his role.  (Sounds an awful lot like Moulson 2 years ago.)

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I actually thought he brought that line down last night.

Oh I don't think there's any argument that we could have an even better 2nd line if we had a better player available but I don't think we have one. Putting an ERod there makes the line lack too much defensively forcing Skinner or Johanson to play more D which will limit their O pressure. Look, Skinner is a goal scorer but he's crap defensively and so I totally get what Kreuger's trying to do - and it worked. 

Next year, maybe even late this year I'd love for a young guy to be there instead (I'm thinking Cozens with Johanson moving to the wing) but for now I think we cannot expect everything we want all at once. For now, Sobodka in a D role makes that line better than using last year's depth scoring failures. 

Maybe start the thread back up if or when he costs us a game, not when he helps us win. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by PerreaultForever

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Oh I don't think there's any argument that we could have an even better 2nd line if we had a better player available but I don't think we have one. Putting an ERod there makes the line lack too much defensively forcing Skinner or Johanson to play more D which will limit their O pressure. Look, Skinner is a goal scorer but he's crap defensively and so I totally get what Kreuger's trying to do - and it worked. 

Next year, maybe even late this year I'd love for a young guy to be there instead (I'm thinking Cozens with Johanson moving to the wing) but for now I think we cannot expect everything we want all at once. For now, Sobodka in a D role makes that line better than using last year's depth scoring failures. 

Maybe start the thread back up if or when he costs us a game, not when he helps us win. 

I would like to see someone like Asplund....defensively minded with speed/skills.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Oh I don't think there's any argument that we could have an even better 2nd line if we had a better player available but I don't think we have one. Putting an ERod there makes the line lack too much defensively forcing Skinner or Johanson to play more D which will limit their O pressure. Look, Skinner is a goal scorer but he's crap defensively and so I totally get what Kreuger's trying to do - and it worked. 

Next year, maybe even late this year I'd love for a young guy to be there instead (I'm thinking Cozens with Johanson moving to the wing) but for now I think we cannot expect everything we want all at once. For now, Sobodka in a D role makes that line better than using last year's depth scoring failures. 

Maybe start the thread back up if or when he costs us a game, not when he helps us win. 

Sobotka being useless in the offensive zone and bad at the transition game is going to have more impact on their o zone pressure than anything. 

I think it's a fallacy that Skinner is "bad" at defending. 

[Doohicksie]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think it's a fallacy that Skinner is "bad" at defending. 

That was his reputation in Carolina; I frankly didn't see it last year.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

That was his reputation in Carolina; I frankly didn't see it last year.

I did. He's a lazy defender. Sometimes a spectator. He's always waiting to jump into the rush. He's not a good two way player - but that's not they are paying him for.

4 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

I would like to see someone like Asplund....defensively minded with speed/skills.

That's what I was hoping for from the preseason, but they decided he wasn't ready. Maybe later this year or next. I do think he has a future.

[PerreaultForever]

For all the Sobodka haters..........in the New Jersey game, on Skinner's goal, did you notice how he crossed through the middle, basically running a pick, that took 2 defenders with him leaving Skinner wide open to grab Johanson's perfect pass?   Just sayin'  ☺️ 

[Sabre1974]

Impressed so far with what Krueger is getting out of this group. We would be no further forward under housley. Plus there are reinforcements there if needed. Can't believe we are 2 games in and rodrigues is yet to play.

[steveoath]

So-not-bad-ka at the moment.

[LGR4GM]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

For all the Sobodka haters..........in the New Jersey game, on Skinner's goal, did you notice how he crossed through the middle, basically running a pick, that took 2 defenders with him leaving Skinner wide open to grab Johanson's perfect pass?   Just sayin'  ☺️ 

To be fair I thought that was his best shift or close to it. They need a replacement there.

There was a play I think in the second when Sob had the puck and could keep the room by just backhand passing it across. He instead turned around to his forehand and by then the hole was gone and he exited the o zone. His vision and passing really are mediocre. 

I'll give him credit though, he's not completely tanking that line. Still we need to find a rw for them. 

[Randall Flagg]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

For all the Sobodka haters..........in the New Jersey game, on Skinner's goal, did you notice how he crossed through the middle, basically running a pick, that took 2 defenders with him leaving Skinner wide open to grab Johanson's perfect pass?   Just sayin'  ☺️ 

He also scored two goals in a November game in Montreal last year while playing with Reinhart. If that didn't override everything else for people who look at the whole picture and conclude that his offensive game was dreadful last year, why would these two scoreless games? We don't claim that Sobotka is incapable of skating in a straight line while Johansson and Skinner score a goal. 

I understand the desire to rub things in early, we all feel it for any of the things that work out the way we thought they would, but like I said elsewhere, chaining your own established beliefs to what happens one game at a time is a great way to twist yourself into logical knots within weeks. That's why I stuck to my ROR trade guns while we were in first and they were in last (which was exponentially more difficult to do than being skeptical of Vlad through two scoreless games in the top six). Sticking to your core principles for what makes teams and players good versus bad is in general a good idea. And if Sobotka has truly changed, then it will show up in the things that made his game so worrisome, and then there won't even be any disagreement. Nobody is married to the view that Sobotka will always suck - they're married to what is evident to them when watching games, which is that for two straight years, he was a ridiculously problematic offensive player. If Sobotka changes the things that were problematic, views will shift accordingly. 

Sobotka has been fine off the puck through two games, and doesn't have any flagrant giveaways or anything like that, but he hasn't shown to have changed the thing that over long periods of time turned his offensive numbers into the worst in the league. For example, the drive to the net early in the first was good in that he saw space and took it, and yet, from 6 inches in front of the goalie, failed to get the puck even on net. It went wide. Another gorgeous transition kicked off by Johansson that should have been dangerous fluttered harmlessly into the netting, later in the period, off of his stick from the high slot. He wasn't a part of any of the seriously dangerous chances those guys had in either game (and I don't know that they had any in Pittsburgh). Things won't go as perfectly as these games have forever, and when they don't, it's going to be obvious that we need the other piece on our second best offensive line to be more capable of making things happen with a puck, and that will be okay. If Sobotka deserves it, Krueger will have another spot for him ready when the time comes.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

He also scored two goals in a November game in Montreal last year while playing with Reinhart. If that didn't override everything else for people who look at the whole picture and conclude that his offensive game was dreadful last year, why would these two scoreless games? We don't claim that Sobotka is incapable of skating in a straight line while Johansson and Skinner score a goal. 

I understand the desire to rub things in early, we all feel it for any of the things that work out the way we thought they would, but like I said elsewhere, riding or dying on your own established beliefs one game at a time is a great way to twist yourself into logical knots within weeks. That's why I stuck to my ROR trade guns while we were in first and they were in last. Sticking to your core principles for what makes teams and players good versus bad is in general a good idea. And if Sobotka has truly changed, then it will show up in the things that made his game so worrisome, and then there won't even be any disagreement. Nobody is married to the view that Sobotka will always suck - they're married to what is evident to them when watching games, which is that for two straight years, he was a ridiculously problematic offensive player. If Sobotka changes the things that were problematic, views will shift accordingly. 

Sobotka has been fine off the puck through two games, and doesn't have any flagrant giveaways or anything like that, but he hasn't shown to have changed the thing that over long periods of time turned his offensive numbers into the worst in the league. For example, the drive to the net early in the first was good in that he saw space and took it, and yet, from 6 inches in front of the goalie, failed to get the puck even on net. It went wide. Another gorgeous transition kicked off by Johansson that should have been dangerous fluttered harmlessly into the netting, later in the period, off of his stick from the high slot. He wasn't a part of any of the seriously dangerous chances those guys had in either game (and I don't know that they had any in Pittsburgh). Things won't go as perfectly as these games have forever, and when they don't, it's going to be obvious that we need the other piece on our second best offensive line to be more capable of making things happen with a puck, and that will be okay. If Sobotka deserves it, Krueger will have another spot for him ready when the time comes.

 

Jason Botterill certainly believes this.

[Grinder]

12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

For all the Sobodka haters..........in the New Jersey game, on Skinner's goal, did you notice how he crossed through the middle, basically running a pick, that took 2 defenders with him leaving Skinner wide open to grab Johanson's perfect pass?   Just sayin'  ☺️ 

I absolutely noticed this. He is a different player this year. I still don't want him on the second line.

[GrassValleyGreg]

Sobotka is clearly not a good offensive forward but no other player can provide the faceoff support needed for a center who's started the year 7 for 24 in the circle. Surprised he has not taken more in the first 2 games, but I expect that to change if Marcus continues to struggle. 

[Andrew Amerk]

He hasn’t done anything egregiously wrong, yet, but that doesn’t mean he belongs there - even if we have won just 2 games easily with the current formula. 

My view is that Skinner and Johansson are two talented players carrying him along so far, and they’d be even more dynamic with someone who contributes rather than coasts along. 

I would love to see what ERod could bring to that line instead. 

[inkman]

1 minute ago, Andrew Amerk said:

He hasn’t done anything egregiously wrong, yet, but that doesn’t mean he belongs there - even if we have won just 2 games easily with the current formula. 

My view is that Skinner and Johansson are two talented players carrying him along so far, and they’d be even more dynamic with someone who contributes rather than coasts along. 

I would love to see what ERod could bring to that line instead. 

I'd love to see someone significantly better than either 17 or 71. 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, inkman said:

I'd love to see someone significantly better than either 17 or 71. 

Cozens is in Lethbridge