The Sabres Center Conundrum

[In The Buff]

10 hours ago, Taro T said:

Umm, isn't junior the last time Reinhart got legit center minutes?

Considering Leino actually shared C duties in Philly w/ Briere on that line he has more successful NHL C experience than Reinhart has.

Just saying.

Can't believe you're actually comparing Reinhart to Ville Leino & making the point that Leino is/was more successful at C than he was.

That 1 season was clearly an aberration, not just in the NHL but all the way down to Juniors he only had 2 other good years, 7 years apart. Reinhart was/is 1000% more productive in Juniors & the NHL than Leino was. I can't see faceoff stats from back in Juniors when Reinhart played center, but if he had a Briere & was centering that line, i think its pretty safe to say he wouldve been much more successful than Leino was, so that comparison is just folly.

Just saying

[In The Buff]

I think for a lot of us the 2C issue is frustrating because #1 it was a self inflicted wound. But #2 it clearly was a need last year  & its again this year. And if we're looking at Mitts or Cozens being another year or 2 away from making an impact, you're talking about 3 or 4 seasons of having a glaring need on your team without it being fully addressed.

Perhaps thats the plan, moving Mojo around, Mitts, Erod, etc like you guys have suggested. But 3 or 4 seasons of more or less the status quo in that regard is a tough pill to stomach. For a team & a franchise thats been waiting so long as it is.

[erickompositör72]

Dismissing the idea of Reinhart at center is the lack of creative thinking that, I'm hoping, is not embodied in our new HC.

Erod does not belong at 2C. We have other options who are actually strong on the puck (not talking skating fast in circles playing keep-away) and actually have an NHL shot.

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by erickompositör72

[LGR4GM]

17 hours ago, erickompositör72 said:

Dismissing the idea of Reinhart at center is the lack of creative thinking that, I'm hoping, is not embodied in our new HC.

Erod does not belong at 2C. We have other options who are actually strong on the puck (not talking skating fast in circles playing keep-away) and actually have an NHL shot.

 

You can't say 1 and then assume 2. 

[Bob in Mich]

22 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

These are the guys that I don't think will make that much of a difference to make it worthwhile. A poster brought up some players that all scored less than 50pts last year. If Casey has developed enough and has decent wingers, he has the ability to step up to about 40pts. there isn't that much difference. And if Casey can't we still have others that might be able to bring some additional help scoring until Mitts does take over that role. I guess what I'm saying is that if we're gonna make a trade for a 2C....make it a good one or don't bother. I would rather trade for a really good one and be done with Mitts or let Mitts continue to prove himself worthy. 

I haven't read through the entire thread but from what I have read, I think this opinion makes the most sense to me.  If the thought is that we are just a single development year away from filling this 2C role from within our organization, why spend much in the way of future capital for this season?  This is not going to be our year to make a deep playoff run.  At best this season, with or without this 'missing piece', we could possibly win maybe one playoff series.  (I did say at best). 

Save that future capital to build for 2-3 years out.  Our goalie of the future should be ready by then and hopefully our core youth has developed by then too.  If they are looking to acquire a 2C now, that player should fit into the 2-3 year plan for a run, not just a player brought in for a push this season.  I would like to take that playoff step this season too but not at the expense of a more realistic 2-3 year push.

[erickompositör72]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

You can't say 1 and then assume 2. 

Don't we have recent evidence of 2? We don't have a sample of 1 since 2017.

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

Don't we have recent evidence of 2? We don't have a sample of 1 since 2017.

What recent evidence of 2? When was Erod given a look at 2c with real wingers? 

[erickompositör72]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

What recent evidence of 2? When was Erod given a look at 2c with real wingers? 

January 5

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

January 5

So one game in January on a team in a massive slump? Who were his wingers?

[erickompositör72]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

So one game in January on a team in a massive slump? Who were his wingers?

Jan 3 and 5 with Skinner and Reinhart. ERod was kept off the score sheet both nights.

n.b., I'm combining this with my own "eye test" to arrive at my conclusion

[Randall Flagg]

Rodrigues played a lot of center as the season went on. I don't really remember who he centered the most though

Phil started to catch on with the Sobotka stuff in the second half

Just now, erickompositör72 said:

Jan 3 and 5 with Skinner and Reinhart. ERod was kept off the score sheet both nights.

n.b., I'm combining this with my own "eye test" to arrive at my conclusion

And yeah when Jack was out he took Jack's spot

[...]

2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

And yeah when Jack was out he took Jack's spot

I'm shocked...shocked, I say...that this didn't work out. 

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

Jan 3 and 5 with Skinner and Reinhart. ERod was kept off the score sheet both nights.

n.b., I'm combining this with my own "eye test" to arrive at my conclusion

 

4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Rodrigues played a lot of center as the season went on. I don't really remember who he centered the most though

Phil started to catch on with the Sobotka stuff in the second half

And yeah when Jack was out he took Jack's spot

So Erod was the 1c not the 2c in this case? 

Phil took 25games too long to "catch on" to Sobotka being the literally worse player on the team by a fair margin (Tage not included). 

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

 

So Erod was the 1c not the 2c in this case? 

Phil took 25games too long to "catch on" to Sobotka being the literally worse player on the team by a fair margin (Tage not included). 

I'd even argue he took [insert Sobotka's total games played] too long

I still can't fathom why we accepted that cap hit in return, I would have rather gotten just Berglund back with the other stuff 

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'd even argue he took [insert Sobotka's total games played] too long

I still can't fathom why we accepted that cap hit in return, I would have rather gotten just Berglund back with the other stuff 

I have no idea but the ROR trade was trash when it happened and just got worse from there. 

[Randall Flagg]

So if Cozens were to make it over Mitts, do people think he'd get more than 9 games, or is that just going to be a 3 week thing?

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'd even argue he took [insert Sobotka's total games played] too long

I still can't fathom why we accepted that cap hit in return, I would have rather gotten just Berglund back with the other stuff 

Occam’s Razor says Botts had orders or decided he had to avoid paying the bonus and that was price at the deadline.

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

So if Cozens were to make it over Mitts, do people think he'd get more than 9 games, or is that just going to be a 3 week thing?

I want Cozens to go back. His skating and shot our NHL caliber. I think his hands looked good at the prospect tourney but I would like him to focus on adding a couple more high end moves to his skillset. Going back will allow him to mature his game and come in next year ready to be an NHL contributor. 

[erickompositör72]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Occam’s Razor says Botts had orders or decided he had to avoid paying the bonus and that was price at the deadline.

Thank you.

Now, it's an understandable debate to ask whether JBotts should have stood up to ownership.

My inside source says that, around the league front offices, word is that JBotts is in "self-preservation mode" and doesn't have the guts to stand up to ownership, who are too involved.

I hope that's more perception than truth, for our sake.

[jsb]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 5:23 PM, Randall Flagg said:

Boston Bruins: Patrice Bergeron - David Krejci
Carolina Hurricanes: Sebastian Aho - Jordan Staal -
Florida Panthers: Aleksander Barkov - Vincent Trocheck -
Montreal Canadiens: Max Domi - Philip Danault -
New Jersey Devils: Nico Hischier - Jack Hughes -
New York Islanders: Matthew Barzal - Brock Nelson -
New York Rangers: Mika Zibanejad - Filip Chytil - Ryan Strome
Philadelphia Flyers: Sean Couturier - Kevin Hayes - Nolan Patrick -
Pittsburgh Penguins: Sidney Crosby - Evgeni Malkin -
Tampa Bay Lightning: Brayden Point - Steven Stamkos -
Toronto Maple Leafs: John Tavares - Auston Matthews -
Washington Capitals: Nicklas Backstrom - Evgeny Kuznetsov -

With the ROR trade our 2C isn't going to be able to compete with any of these top 2-3 centers in this conference. Whether you like it or not, being patient and hoping one of the young guns develops into a serviceable 2C is our only chance right now. The thought that ERod is going to compete with these guys is ludicrous. Risto isn't going to bring in someone on the above level. Waiting on Mitts or Cozens to develop into this is our only move at the moment that makes long term sense.

I used your post as a reference @Randall Flagg, I'm not necessarily posting this at you. Whether anyone wants to hear it or not, we are in step 2 phase of rebuilding this roster from the TANK, and we have 3 more steps to take before we're a contender again.

[Weave]

2 minutes ago, jsb said:

With the ROR trade our 2C isn't going to be able to compete with any of these top 2-3 centers in this conference. Whether you like it or not, being patient and hoping one of the young guns develops into a serviceable 2C is our only chance right now. The thought that ERod is going to compete with these guys is ludicrous. Risto isn't going to bring in someone on the above level. Waiting on Mitts or Cozens to develop into this is our only move at the moment that makes long term sense.

I used your post as a reference @Randall Flagg, I'm not necessarily posting this at you. Whether anyone wants to hear it or not, we are in step 2 phase of rebuilding this roster from the TANK, and we have 3 more steps to take before we're a contender again.

3 more steps?  We'll be ready to tank again by then.

[jsb]

2 minutes ago, Weave said:

3 more steps?  We'll be ready to tank again by then.

First step is to get the young guys toughened up and NHL ready

2nd step would be to add a real piece, winger or C and make a playoff run

3rd step would be to then contend.

[Randall Flagg]

41 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Occam’s Razor says Botts had orders or decided he had to avoid paying the bonus and that was price at the deadline.

I tried applying Occam's razor to the trade once back when we were winning games

never again 

?

I did get the impression he was being genuine when he talked about Sobotka as vet depth though, like he actually believed Vlad had trade value. And people did NOT like me suggesting he didn't last summer

Just now, jsb said:

First step is to get the young guys toughened up and NHL ready

2nd step would be to add a real piece, winger or C and make a playoff run

3rd step would be to then contend.

Who the hell signed up for this plan?

I hate it 

[jsb]

2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Who the hell signed up for this plan?

I hate it 

Like it or not it's the most realistic plan and will keep me sane waiting on it.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

So if Cozens were to make it over Mitts, do people think he'd get more than 9 games, or is that just going to be a 3 week thing?

I think it's less than 25% likely that Cozens makes the team.

I also think it's less than 25% likely that Mitts doesn't make the team.

So I think there's about a 5% chance that Cozens makes it and Mitts doesn't.

 

1 hour ago, erickompositör72 said:

Thank you.

Now, it's an understandable debate to ask whether JBotts should have stood up to ownership.

My inside source says that, around the league front offices, word is that JBotts is in "self-preservation mode" and doesn't have the guts to stand up to ownership, who are too involved.

I hope that's more perception than truth, for our sake.

Anything is possible, of course, but if this were true I don't think he would've hired RK.