Prospects GDT 9-6-19: NJ Devils Vs Sabres 7:00 PM

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I can see Pi's and Sizzle's reservations w.r.t. Cozens. I think he's going to get better in the areas he has them concerned but I can see where they're coming from.

For those that didn’t watch, I think there’s a real scale of relativity as far as this line of criticism of Cozens is concerned. He’s certainly no Sam Reinhart, but he moved the puck better last night than Evander Kane or Jeff Skinner ever did.

Does he carry the puck sometimes when he should be passing it? Looks like it.

Can he make good passes? Looks like it.

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

For those that didn’t watch, I think there’s a real scale of relativity as far as this line of criticism of Cozens is concerned. He’s certainly no Sam Reinhart, but he moved the puck better last night than Evander Kane or Jeff Skinner ever did.

Does he carry the puck sometimes when he should be passing it? Looks like it.

Can he make good passes? Looks like it.

This narrative that he's not good or at least his hockey IQ isn't, is just fake. Idk where it come from. He can drive the play or slow it down. 

[Randall Flagg]

Nobody has that narrative.

It's okay to raise eyebrows at the number of one-on-one rushes he attempted and lost the puck on. It's just acknowledging an area of his game that could see some growth.

Same with his hands, which stuck out to me more than the rushing did. 

And he did a lot of good things too. 

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This narrative that he's not good or at least his hockey IQ isn't, is just fake. Idk where it come from. He can drive the play or slow it down. 

pi’s Point that he takes the puck into traffic is valid.

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Nobody has that narrative.

It's okay to raise eyebrows at the number of one-on-one rushes he attempted and lost the puck on. It's just acknowledging an area of his game that could see some growth.

Same with his hands, which stuck out to me more than the rushing did. 

And he did a lot of good things too. 

You are probably referring to this thread, but in the internet this narrative definitely exists.

[LGR4GM]

Just now, dudacek said:

pi’s Point that he takes the puck into traffic is valid.

You are probably referring to this thread, but in the internet this narrative definitely exists.

Good. I want him to take the puck into traffic in the offensive zone. Someone needs to.

And yes there's this idea floating that his hockey IQ isn't good. I never get that when I watch him. It stems from comparing him to Dach who doesn't push play the same way. 

8 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Nobody has that narrative.

It's okay to raise eyebrows at the number of one-on-one rushes he attempted and lost the puck on. It's just acknowledging an area of his game that could see some growth.

Same with his hands, which stuck out to me more than the rushing did. 

And he did a lot of good things too. 

What about his hands? He recieved 2 or 3 hard passes from Jokiharju perfectly yesterday

[LGR4GM]

We bitched for years that we had all these players who didn't drive the net and shoot but just passed around and now we get a driving the net shoot first guy and we're mad he doesn't make pretty passes more often. 

Yes there are flaws too Cozens game. Let's just give him a hot minute first. 

[dudacek]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Good. I want him to take the puck into traffic in the offensive zone. Someone needs to.

And yes there's this idea floating that his hockey IQ isn't good. I never get that when I watch him. It stems from comparing him to Dach who doesn't push play the same way. 

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Kid looks like a stampeding Buffalo through the neutral zone. He attacks with speed and power and as he matures will scare defences back on to their heels. There will be growing pains as he learns that NHL defencemen are good, but it will be an asset moving forward.

Im getting Sam Reinhart flashbacks here who was called out for not carrying the puck and driving the blueline.

[Robviously]

23 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This narrative that he's not good or at least his hockey IQ isn't, is just fake. Idk where it come from. He can drive the play or slow it down. 

IIRC, during the broadcast of the NHL draft, that was the commentary right after the Sabres drafted him.  They basically damned him with faint praise along the lines of "He's not the most skilled or cerebral player, but..."  and I think it snowballed from there.  And it was a little weird since none of the draft write-ups (at least the ones that I saw) in the months leading up to the draft had that narrative. 

Who knows?  Maybe it will hold him back.  But even if he's not Reinhart, that doesn't mean he's just a physically gifted athlete who is also a completely blockhead.  Trying to be cautiously optimistic because the Sabres haven't historically had a lot of big, fast centers.

[Randall Flagg]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

pi’s Point that he takes the puck into traffic is valid.

You are probably referring to this thread, but in the internet this narrative definitely exists.

I don't think I've ever seen unfair criticism of Cozens on this site, where I've seen three posters criticize him in the 12 weeks since we've drafted him. That's what I'm referring to

 

12 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Good. I want him to take the puck into traffic in the offensive zone. Someone needs to.

And yes there's this idea floating that his hockey IQ isn't good. I never get that when I watch him. It stems from comparing him to Dach who doesn't push play the same way. 

What about his hands? He recieved 2 or 3 hard passes from Jokiharju perfectly yesterday

Not pass reception, but his stickhandling and puck control while on the move needs to get better for when there's less space and things are moving faster in the NHL. It was the very first thing I noticed when I watched the first highlight video of his in June, and it showed up in the form of fumbling pucks away while attempting those rushes a la Okposo last night. Again, this is something that's very easy to fix wit a little time and effort, so I think he will.

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Kid looks like a stampeding Buffalo through the neutral zone. He attacks with speed and power and as he matures will scare defences back on to their heels. There will be growing pains as he learns that NHL defencemen are good, but it will be an asset moving forward.

Im getting Sam Reinhart flashbacks here who was called out for not carrying the puck and driving the blueline.

I predict he never plays a second with Jack, because both of them will have that role locked down on their respective lines. 

[Randall Flagg]

I kinda see Mitts (souped up hands) and Cozens as yin and yang for each other as prospects. 

One is a safe bet to be a reliable NHLer for a long time even if his ceiling is lower, and the other has PPG+ potential with a lower floor

[Zamboni]

Someone’s got to whine, bitch and complain about something. I have found some fans are happiest when they are complaining and moaning about something. ?

I liked what I saw in most of the prospects yesterday. Cozens represented himself well. He’s only gonna develop and improve. VO is ready for the NHL. I hope he has a great camp and forces the Sabres brass to offer him a spot. Borgen is on the cusp. I think he could use one more year in Roch. but be called up often to play in games. Not sit in the press box due to a game time decision.

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, Zamboni said:

Someone’s got to whine, bitch and complain about something. I have found some fans are happiest when they are complaining and moaning about something. ?

I liked what I saw in most of the prospects yesterday. Cozens represented himself well. He’s only gonna develop and improve. VO is ready for the NHL. I hope he has a great camp and forces the Sabres brass to offer him a spot. Borgen is on the cusp. I think he could use one more year in Roch. but be called up often to play in games. Not sit in the press box due to a game time decision.

Who is doing this? 

[...]

Damn, all I said was he reminded me of Thompson out there and didn't do anything impressive.  Olofsson, Pekar, they impressed me.  FWIW, I wasn't terribly impressed with Hughes, either.

LGR, if you're going to try and pin the low IQ thing on me, then you're jumping the gun, generalizing, and haven't done your homework.  I'm pretty sure when people do that to you, it bothers the piss out of you.  There are countless forum tantrums to back up that observation.  Perhaps you should apply that hard-earned recognition and respect to your fellow forum-dwellers.

Cozens' offensive zone maneuvering looked exactly like Thompson's to me in last nights game - a guy who wants to drive it to the net but lacked the ability to finish the execution.   

[dudacek]

Pretty much unanimous that VO was on another level last night, right?

That other two I want to get a good look at on the next level are Jokiharju (feet, hands and head were all a step above the competition) and Asplund (love his brain and his will, is he skilled enough)

[LGR4GM]

I'm not pinning anything on anyone. I think it's premature to be over analyzing him

Edited September 7, 2019 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, ... said:

Damn, all I said was he reminded me of Thompson out there and didn't do anything impressive.  Olofsson, Pekar, they impressed me.  FWIW, I wasn't terribly impressed with Hughes, either.

LGR, if you're going to try and pin the low IQ thing on me, then you're jumping the gun, generalizing, and haven't done your homework.  I'm pretty sure when people do that to you, it bothers the piss out of you.  There are countless forum tantrums to back up that observation.  Perhaps you should apply that hard-earned recognition and respect to your fellow forum-dwellers.

Cozens' offensive zone maneuvering looked exactly like Thompson's to me in last nights game - a guy who wants to drive it to the net but lacked the ability to finish the execution.   

I haven't even mentioned you. Maybe you should read what you just wrote about calling ppl out for nothing. 

I don't agree with your comparison of Cozens to Thompson 

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, ... said:

 

Cozens' offensive zone maneuvering looked exactly like Thompson's to me in last nights game - a guy who wants to drive it to the net but lacked the ability to finish the execution.   

Except, there was the way he finished on his goal...

And the that great pass he threaded through traffic on the rush in the first that Ruotsalainen failed to convert...

And that burst through neutral zone where he took the pass in full stride and bulled around the defenceman hard to the net.

And that quick pass out of the corner to Aquin in front in the 2nd that should have been goal...

I get what you’re saying man, but Cozens made a lot of positive plays 

[...]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Except, there was the way he finished on his goal...

And the that great pass he threaded through traffic on the rush in the first that Ruotsalainen failed to convert...

And that burst through neutral zone where he took the pass in full stride and bulled around the defenceman hard to the net.

And that quick pass out of the corner to Aquin in front in the 2nd that should have been goal...

I get what you’re saying man, but Cozens made a lot of positive plays 

Are you saying Thompson didn't have some good plays at the development camp?  Just because he reminded me of Thompson, doesn't mean it's all negative.

[LGR4GM]

Just now, ... said:

Are you saying Thompson didn't have some good plays at the development camp?  Just because he reminded me of Thompson, doesn't mean it's all negative.

They don't even play the game the same way. Thompson dipsy doodles all over the zone than has a big wind up and shoots. 

Cozens drives the net or pulls up in space and has a quick release.

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, ... said:

Are you saying Thompson didn't have some good plays at the development camp?  Just because he reminded me of Thompson, doesn't mean it's all negative.

Fair enough. Thompson was very good at this thing last year.

[Randall Flagg]

I think Sizzle is right in that Thompson's positives are of the same nature as Cozens, when they're in the appropriate setting for those things to show through (ie Tage in this thing, not Tage in NHL).

I think duda/liger are right that Cozens is fundamentally different from Thompson in between the ears when it comes to hockey. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I thought of another way to phrase what I think Cozens needs to work at developing - does anyone remember Evgeny Artyukhin? That guy could skate faster than anyone in the NHL, practically. He has some end-to-end highlights that look like McJesus. But he was successful at that far less often than McJesus, because he had relatively stone hands, and his puck control was sorely lacking. It was usually a trivial matter to separate him from the puck, often with a simple attempted poke check or just getting a slight shoulder on him to nudge him a bit - he'd muff the stickhandle and the puck would skitter away. McDavid is impossible to separate from the puck - the speed at which he stickhandles, the control and forearm strength he has at all angles relative to his squared shoulders, all make it so hard to strip the puck from him. Cozens' rushes are more on the Artyukhin end of the scale right now because he kinda pokes the puck along with him, rather than maintaining full control. Sometimes he barely stickhandles at all while doing it.

The differences between Cozens and Artyukhin - Cozens has more skill in general, being a top 10 pick. Cozens is in his teens with lots of prime development years left. And Cozens is playing hockey in an era hyper-focused on stickhandling skills. He'll get there.

[pi2000]

Typical.   Folks here need to stop being so defensive when we're discussing prospects, particularly when talking about parts of their game that need growth.

Nobody here is bitching or complaining about Cozens.  He's a fine prospect, and like ALL prospects there are areas of their game that need to and will improve with proper development.

[...]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Fair enough. Thompson was very good at this thing last year.

He was "good" at this year's development camp.  Which isn't a defense of Thompson in the NHL, just noting that he didn't suck and actually scored goals with his goofy ways.  He still displayed what I would consider deficiencies when in the offensive zone, especially when he had possession.  

My conclusion on Cozens, then, is that he needs a few years development time, at least, and we should in no way expect him near the Sabres for at least two seasons, if not more.  I know, shock analysis.  I want to see his offensive zone game way better than it is, for a first round pick.  And if Thompson is his equal today (or should I say today), keep Cozens the hell away from the NHL and develop that boy correctly.

 

[LGR4GM]

27 minutes ago, ... said:

He was "good" at this year's development camp.  Which isn't a defense of Thompson in the NHL, just noting that he didn't suck and actually scored goals with his goofy ways.  He still displayed what I would consider deficiencies when in the offensive zone, especially when he had possession.  

My conclusion on Cozens, then, is that he needs a few years development time, at least, and we should in no way expect him near the Sabres for at least two seasons, if not more.  I know, shock analysis.  I want to see his offensive zone game way better than it is, for a first round pick.  And if Thompson is his equal today (or should I say today), keep Cozens the hell away from the NHL and develop that boy correctly.

 

I'd be surprised if Cozens takes 2 full season until he's nhl ready. I'll be shocked if it takes more than 2 seasons. 

What deficiencies did you see from Cozens in the offensive zone. I can think of 1 but am curious for yours.  

45 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Typical.   Folks here need to stop being so defensive when we're discussing prospects, particularly when talking about parts of their game that need growth.

Nobody here is bitching or complaining about Cozens.  He's a fine prospect, and like ALL prospects there are areas of their game that need to and will improve with proper development.

Not defensive, I don't agree with what you view his weaknesses as. I think some of the critiques of his stick handling and his ability to play at speed are warranted. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by LGR4GM

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, ... said:

He was "good" at this year's development camp.  Which isn't a defense of Thompson in the NHL, just noting that he didn't suck and actually scored goals with his goofy ways.  He still displayed what I would consider deficiencies when in the offensive zone, especially when he had possession.  

My conclusion on Cozens, then, is that he needs a few years development time, at least, and we should in no way expect him near the Sabres for at least two seasons, if not more.  I know, shock analysis.  I want to see his offensive zone game way better than it is, for a first round pick.  And if Thompson is his equal today (or should I say today), keep Cozens the hell away from the NHL and develop that boy correctly.

 

If the gist of your critique is that, based on last night’s game, he’s not ready for the NHL right now, I agree.

Only guy who unequivocally looked ready to make decisions at NHL speed last night was Olofsson, IMO, and that includes the number one prospect in all of hockey, Jack Hughes.

Not sure I agree at all with your minimum 2021 arrival though. Cozens looked stronger and made better decisions (more ready) than Hughes did last night and I will bet good money Hughes plays the entire season in the NHL this year, because he is ridiculously skilled. 

I thought Cozens was better than Thompson last night, but regardless, even Cozens at 18 being the equal of Thompson at 21 speaks well of Cozens.