Does Risto want out?

[Doohicksie]

12 minutes ago, LTS said:

the lack of defense played by the forwards who are on the ice at the same time as the defense?

I thought about this when watching the 2007 Ottawa game in the Culture thread.  I couldn't help but notice that if Ottawa was trying to hem the Buffalo defense in deep, there was ALWAYS a forward that would come in low to give the pressured D-man two options- his partner or the forward coming back to help.  Sometimes it was MacArthur, sometimes Stafford, sometimes Ryan (whom I admit I don't even remember).  But there was always a forward whose responsibility included bailing out the defense when they were pressured.  And it seemed to work pretty good.

What a tire fire our team D has been the last few years.

[Thorner]

52 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Jbot isn’t trading for Turris. He has Mitts, Asplund and Cozens coming up through the pipeline. What we need is someone to bridge the gap until Mitts or someone else proves ready.  Frankly, despite @inkman ‘s statements to the contrary, it’s possible Mitts could be ready for 2c duty despite his lack of success last season.  It’s not unusual for talented pros to take a leap forward in year 2 as Jack and Sam did.

This maybe why Jbot signed Johansson.  He could be betting on Mitts (again) but between ERod and Johansson (and even Reinhart) he may believe he has the insurance policies he needs on the roster.  

Instead his goal with Risto maybe to get a RW to play with Jack.  

I can see Mittelstadt taking a sizeable jump, but if we are being realistic, jumping from "barely an NHLer at all" to "capable 2C" in a single off-season seems too optimistically lofty. 

Even Reinhart, who had a MUCH better rookie season than Mitts, jumped 5 points to 47 in his second year, at a much easier position. Reinhart would not have been capable of 2C responsibilities his sophomore year. If the team is really trying to win this year, betting on Mitts to fill that role seems unwise. 

Seeing as how Botterill hinted strongly that Reino was staying at wing, and that there has been zero mention of Johansson at centre...a plan of one of Mittelstadt or Evan Rodrigues capably seizing the 2C role seems to be...not confidence inducing.

The other thing to consider is that we are one (heaven forbid) Eichel injury from Casey Mittelstadt being our ONE C. I mean..

Edited August 13, 2019 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I can see MIttelstadt taking a sizeable jump, but if we are being realistic, jumping from "barely an NHLer at all" to "capable 2C" in a single off-season seems too optimistically lofty. 

Even Reinhart, who had a MUCH better rookie season than Mitts, jumped 5 points to 47 in his second year, at a much easier position. Reinhart would not have been capable of 2C his sophomore year. If the team is really trying to win this year, betting on Mitts to fill that role seems unwise. 

Seeing as how Botterill hinted strongly that Reino was staying at wing, and that there has been zero mention of Johansson at centre...a plan of one of Mittelstadt or Evan Rodrigues being a capable 2C seems to be...not confidence inducing.

How strong a center do you need with 2 excellent wingers?  Kane was centered by 40 pt Anisimov for years and that hasn’t kept Kane from dominating.  Jbot has said he wants to run the 2c through Reinhart as Chicago does through Kane. I’d like an upgrade here as well to take pressure off of Mitts but I’m not overly concerned. 

[Thorner]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

How strong a center do you need with 2 excellent wingers?  Kane was centered by 40 pt Anisimov for years and that hasn’t kept Kane from dominating.  Jbot has said he wants to run the 2c through Reinhart as Chicago does through Kane. I’d like an upgrade here as well to take pressure off of Mitts but I’m not overly concerned. 

I'm not overly familiar with the Chicago situation but I'm thinking Anisimov was older, more experienced, and possessed a much more well-rounded game when he was performing that role? I get the points thing, but there's more to it than just points. Mittelstadt's defensive game (a huge component of the centreman, particularly) is as lacking or moreso at this stage of his career as the offensive game. 

Kane is also not Reinhart, as much as I love Reinhart. And who's the other winger? A rookie Olofsson? I think Reinhart is reasonably sound defensively, but not so much so to make up for what I imagine the other 2/3rds of that line may be lacking on that front. 

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that line could succeed in a somewhat limited capacity as the 2nd line, but it's a risky bet, at best. Nevermind Mittelstadt, the real reason that has a chance of working is if Reinhart continues trending favourably relative to the likes of Mark Scheifele at the same age. So far so good on that front but the curve kept trending up in that case for a while. 

On the other hand, saddling Reino with a rookie and a sophomore may go a ways towards keeping Reinhart's AAV down on his next contract. Maybe that's the strategy. Maybe they'll keep Dahlin's down too, with Risto getting his fair share of PP1 time. 

Really depends how long out Botterill is planning for, here. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Thorny

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

I'm not overly familiar with the Chicago situation but I'm thinking Anisimov was older, more experienced, and possessed a much more well-rounded game when he was performing that role? I get the points thing, but there's more to it than just points. Mittelstadt's defensive game (a huge component of the centreman, particularly) is as lacking or moreso at this stage of his career as the offensive game. 

Kane is also not Reinhart, as much as I love Reinhart. And who's the other winger? A rookie Olofsson? I think Reinhart is reasonably sound defensively, but not so much so to make up for what I imagine the other 2/3rds of that line may be lacking on that front. 

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that line could succeed in a somewhat limited capacity as the 2nd line, but it's a risky bet, at best. Nevermind Mittelstadt, the real reason that has a chance of working is if Reinhart continues trending favourably relative to the likes of Mark Scheifele at the same age. So far so good on that front but the curve kept trending up in that case for a while. 

On the other hand, saddling Reino with a rookie and a sophomore may go a ways towards keeping Reinhart's AAV down on his next contract. Maybe that's the strategy. Maybe they'll keep Dahlin's down too, with Risto getting his fair share of PP1 time.

Really depends how long out Botterill is planning for, here. 

IF that's the strategy, then I'd be ready to lead / join a class action lawsuit against this team for false advertising of what the present product they are and have been putting on the ice is.

That could definitely behoove them long term as they could be locking up guys cheaply and also landing another top 10 draft pick.  But that would do soo much damage to the remaining trust the fan base has in this organization that the relationship may be unrepairable.  After ~6-1/2 seasons of nearly unwatchable hockey over the last 8 years, that would be the straw to break this camel's back.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

How strong a center do you need with 2 excellent wingers?  Kane was centered by 40 pt Anisimov for years and that hasn’t kept Kane from dominating.  Jbot has said he wants to run the 2c through Reinhart as Chicago does through Kane. I’d like an upgrade here as well to take pressure off of Mitts but I’m not overly concerned. 

Rodrigues should be able to center a passable 2nd line with Skinner and Reinhart.  But they'd almost assuredly have to have somebody better than Olofsson and Vesey to put out with Eichel to make those 2 lines work.

If those 2 lines could work a 3rd line with Johansson & somebody (Sheary, Thompson, other?) flanking Mittelstadt would work.

Really don't want to be relying on that as the plan to get the Sabres back into relevancy.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Taro T

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

IF that's the strategy, then I'd be ready to lead / join a class action lawsuit against this team for false advertising of what the present product they are and have been putting on the ice is.

That could definitely behoove them long term as they could be locking up guys cheaply and also landing another top 10 draft pick.  But that would do soo much damage to the remaining trust the fan base has in this organization that the relationship may be unrepairable.  After ~6-1/2 seasons of nearly unwatchable hockey over the last 8 years, that would be the straw to break this camel's back.

This, but I worry even more about the recklessness with which we'd be wasting the primes of our best forwards, and the ELC of our franchise Dman, as well as the risks of subjecting not only the fans, but key pieces of the roster to so much losing. 

I'm not saying that's the plan, though. But things like that could factor in depending on whatever their chosen timeline is. 

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Rodrigues should be able to center a passable 2nd line with Skinner and Reinhart.  But they'd almost assuredly have to have somebody better than Olofsson and Vesey to put out with him to make those 2 lines work.

If those 2 lines could work a 3rd line with Johansson & somebody (Sheary, Thompson, other?) flanking Mittelstadt would work.

Really don't want to be relying on that as the plan to get the Sabres back into relevancy.

Dudacek has mentioned a lineup configuration like this, where we could no doubt surround Mittelstadt with highly capable wingers. But we'd still be lacking in the defensive end with that line, and more importantly, we are drastically weakening the Eichel line in doing so. 

We've reached the point where we have enough real wingers to fill out a roster with capable centres, but not strong enough to buoy up non-capable centres, without the presence of those wingers being sorely missed on another line.

I'm kinda worried about Botterill's "be more like Crosby" re:Eichel being the strategy. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Thorny

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This, but I worry even more about the recklessness with which we'd be wasting the primes of our best forwards, and the ELC of our franchise Dman, as well as the risks of subjecting not only the fans, but key pieces of the roster to so much losing. 

I'm not saying that's the plan, though. But things like that could factor in depending on whatever their chosen timeline is. 

Agreed.  No reason to believe this is the plan (other than Botterill sticking to his plan last year even after the team had found lightning in a jar and Berglund gifted him ~$3.5-4MM worth of cap space) but no reason at present to believe it isn't.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Agreed.  No reason to believe this is the plan (other than Botterill sticking to his plan last year even after the team had found lightning in a jar and Berglund gifted him ~$3.5-4MM worth of cap space) but no reason at present to believe it isn't.

I mean, it's mid-August. So, ya. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Dudacek has mentioned a lineup configuration like this, where we could no doubt surround Mittelstadt with highly capable wingers. But we'd still be lacking in the defensive end with that line, and more importantly, we are drastically weakening the Eichel line in doing so. 

We've reached the point where we have enough real wingers to fill out a roster with capable centres, but not strong enough to buoy up non-capable centres. 

I'm kinda worried about Botterill's "be more like Crosby" re:Eichel being the strategy. 

And while Rodrigues isn't great in his own end, he's adequate which is a step up from where Mittelstadt is at present.  Which is why having E-Rod center what should be Eichel's wingers could work.

It's just, there are so many things that have to go right in that scenario, any one of which not working dooms it, that it's foolhardy to have that as plan A. 

(And we hopefully are worrying over nothing as Ristolainen still could be converted into a player that makes the forward ranks work by either adding that much needed 2C or giving a strong enough winger that should Olofsson pan out they have 5 top 6 F's one of whom shows flashes of being elite.  Which makes Mittelstadt growing into a competent 3C over this past summer plausibke.)

[Thorner]

28 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And while Rodrigues isn't great in his own end, he's adequate which is a step up from where Mittelstadt is at present.  Which is why having E-Rod center what should be Eichel's wingers could work.

It's just, there are so many things that have to go right in that scenario, any one of which not working dooms it, that it's foolhardy to have that as plan A. 

(And we hopefully are worrying over nothing as Ristolainen still could be converted into a player that makes the forward ranks work by either adding that much needed 2C or giving a strong enough winger that should Olofsson pan out they have 5 top 6 F's one of whom shows flashes of being elite.  Which makes Mittelstadt growing into a competent 3C over this past summer plausibke.)

Right, was thinking in my head Mittelstadt centering Eichel's wingers when I wrote that. With Rodrigues I'd say it'd definitely be a pretty strong line. But again, I think it torches our top line too much. 

I think we'd be ok if we add a bonafide top 6 player. If it's a centre, Skinner can go back to Eichel's line. If it's a strong winger, say Ehlers, Eichel can take that guy. Or that guy can go to LW2 and Eichel can still keep Skinner. 

The top 6 just won't be strong enough in my estimation without someone else being brought in. 

Skinner - Eichel - X

X - X - Reinhart

They are going to have to fill one of those Xs with someone not currently with the organization. We still only have 3 real top 6 players. We still don't have a second line. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

The more I think about the Risto situation, Jbot should treat it like the NYI treated the Hamonic situation.  Obviously the reason Hamonic and Risto want to be traded are different, but I don't see why we should just acquiesce simply because he made his wishes public. 

Jbot should tell him to go do his job and he'll try to accommodate him when the right deal comes down, however the better he plays the more likely we'll get a good deal and therefore he'll get his wish.  Fail to play well and both he and the Sabres are stuck with each other. Also maybe if he plays well and he helps the Sabres play well, maybe he'll change his mind and want to stay.   

[LGR4GM]

I think Ristolainen will be traded to a Canadian team b4 the season starts. I don't think he is a Sabre much longer. 

[Zamboni]

Tkachuk or Domi for Risto, Olofsson, and a 2021 and 2022 1st.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Zamboni

[dudacek]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The more I think about the Risto situation, Jbot should treat it like the NYI treated the Hamonic situation.  Obviously the reason Hamonic and Risto want to be traded are different, but I don't see why we should just acquiesce simply because he made his wishes public. 

Jbot should tell him to go do his job and he'll try to accommodate him when the right deal comes down, however the better he plays the more likely we'll get a good deal and therefore he'll get his wish.  Fail to play well and both he and the Sabres are stuck with each other. Also maybe if he plays well and he helps the Sabres play well, maybe he'll change his mind and want to stay.   

I kinda think this is what happened:

Risto: “I can’t take this losing any more. Maybe it’s time for a change.”

Botterill: “I can look into it, but I’m not going to give you away.”

Risto: “I’ll be OK with whatever happens.”

 

28 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think Ristolainen will be traded to a Canadian team b4 the season starts. I don't think he is a Sabre much longer. 

 Not sure about the Canadian team part, but otherwise I agree.

[Taro T]

30 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Tkachuk or Domi for Risto, Olofsson, and a 2021 and 2022 1st.

Seems 1 draft pick too much for Tkachuk and an Olofsson and a pick too much for Domi.

[LGR4GM]

Canadian team and my guess is Winnipeg. 

[nfreeman]

@LGR4GM -- why do you think it will be a Canadian team?

[Kruppstahl]

On 8/11/2019 at 10:50 PM, CallawaySabres said:

I don't care if he says he hates the team and the fans.....tough luck. Unless we win the trade, he stays.

Too bad Botterill wasn't thinking in those terms with ROR!

It will be really interesting to see what value Risto brings.  May not be quite what you all are expecting.

 

 

[dudacek]

12 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Too bad Botterill wasn't thinking in those terms with ROR!

It will be really interesting to see what value Risto brings.  May not be quite what you all are expecting.

 

 

Expecting ?

Opinion is so varied on Risto, I could almost see anything from him swapped for a stopgap pending UFA middle-six forward like Eakin, to being a centrepiece in a package for a greedy young stud like Tkachuk.

Im expecting pretty much anything.

Edited August 14, 2019 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

@LGR4GM -- why do you think it will be a Canadian team?

Cap space and assets 

[WildCard]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Cap space and assets 

Outside of the Jets who fits that bill? Edmonton?

[dudacek]

22 minutes ago, WildCard said:

Outside of the Jets who fits that bill? Edmonton?

I could see Canucks, Edmonton and Calgary all being interested in the player, but I don’t see a fit for the trade.

You want an out-of-the-box destination? How about Dallas? They’ve got forwards and Risto Heiskanen Lindell Kilngberg makes for an intriguing top four.

[Randall Flagg]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I could see Canucks, Edmonton and Calgary all being interested in the player, but I don’t see a fit for the trade.

You want an out-of-the-box destination? How about Dallas? They’ve got forwards and Risto Heiskanen Lindell Kilngberg makes for an intriguing top four.

Hintz for Risto?