Jbot Referendum - Is he Good or Bad or Are You Unsure?

[Thorner]

8 hours ago, StuckinFL said:

I actually disagree with alot of what's being said here. I don't think this season will define him. I think this off season will. If he does nothing more for the 2nd line, is perceived as doing too little, or a bad move, the fanbase will turn and blame him and not the coach or the players. If he is seen making more good moves, solidifying up the 2nd line, then our focus will be on a brand new coach or the new players and he'll be looked at as a good GM that's still cleaning up a mess.

Either way, I think the narrative on who JBot is will be decided in the next 2 months. If we turn on him the season would have to be amazing for that narrative to change. If we're behind him, the season would have to be an absolute dumpster fire for us to change our minds. 

I think there's some truth in this. Taro covered the ownership point-of-view side of things, but I'm imagining a scenario where we bring in, for the sake of argument, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (or a player of his caliber).

If the Buffalo Sabres are a team with Skinner, Eichel, Olofsson, Johansson, Nugent-Hopkins, and Reinhart in our top 6, and Dahlin, Montour, Miller on the blueline, a lot of fans are going to look at that team on paper and think there's enough legitimate talent to compete for a playoff spot at minimum. They may turn on the coach, but the law of diminishing returns may start to factor into perception there after unloading on the coach for this many seasons now. 

If we still stink, I could see Botterill escaping blame due to a strong off-season, and much of the fandom starting to get frustrated with what's perceived to be something of a failed core. 

To me, short of something major unforeseen, I have a hard time seeing a roster like that (one with a bonafide 2C) not putting together a very solid season. 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Thorny

[dudacek]

45 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I think there's some truth in this. Taro covered the ownership point-of-view side of things, but I'm imagining a scenario where we bring in, for the sake of argument, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (or a player of his caliber).

If the Buffalo Sabres are a team with Skinner, Eichel, Olofsson, Johansson, Nugent-Hopkins, and Reinhart in our top 6, and Dahlin, Montour, Miller on the blueline, a lot of fans are going to look at that team on paper and think there's enough legitimate talent to compete for a playoff spot at minimum. They may turn on the coach, but the law of diminishing returns may start to factor into perception there after unloading on the coach for this many seasons now. 

If we still stink, I could see Botterill escaping blame due to a strong off-season, and much of the fandom starting to get frustrated with what's perceived to be something of a failed core. 

To me, short of something major unforeseen, I have a hard time seeing a roster like that (one with a bonafide 2C) not putting together a very solid season. 

 

And what if all he does is grab Turris at a discount, or trust Casey to step up, and he succeeds?

Will he have been smart or lucky?

Or will it simply be “who cares, it worked?”

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

And what if all he does is grab Turris at a discount, or trust Casey to step up, and he succeeds?

Will he have been smart or lucky?

Or will it simply be “who cares, it worked?”

Considered smart by those that are warm/lukewarm/moderate on him now, lucky by those who will torch him sans big 2C move.

[Thorner]

Bueller....Bueller.....very slow season. Where’s that 2C trade? I’d settle for even a substantial rumour...

Are we gonna have to wait until after our three remaining arbitration hearings? The last one is not until the final arbitration day, August 4. 

Interestingly, no other team has more than 1 remaining hearing, and we still have 3. Is this an unwillingness to negotiate pre-hearing or just a coincidence? 10 cases remain league wide, 30% are Sabres.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Thorny

[dudacek]

JBot hasn’t negotiated a ton of contracts yet, but the pattern we are starting to see is he will pay a boatload of cash over a long term to his stars and as little of each as possible to his foot soldiers.

Montour and Reinhart next year as 2nd-tier guys will be interesting.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

JBot hasn’t negotiated a ton of contracts yet, but the pattern we are starting to see is he will pay a boatload of cash over a long term to his stars and as little of each as possible to his foot soldiers.

Montour and Reinhart next year as 2nd-tier guys will be interesting.

If Reinhart is re-signed it’ll have to be as a 1st tier guy, based on his production and what he’ll command (Top 3 forward on team for both). 

It’ll require that full commitment from Botterill. 

The bridge represented hesitancy/an audition from JB. You’d have to think he’ll either sign a big deal, or be moved, sometime in the next 365 days. I suppose a 1-year extension (keeping him RFA at the end) is possible too, delaying the decision further. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Yes, we’ll learn over the next year whether Botterill thinks Sam is a legitimate building block or a good player whose importance has been exaggerated on a bad team.

[Wyldnwoody44]

He's neither right now, but he does seem borrrrring. 

 

Which means nothing if we freaking stop sucking. 

Tick tock tick tock 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I should have mentioned the hiring of Ralph Kruger in my original post.

Now that we have seen Miller, Joker, MoJo and VO in action and the resurrection RK has done with Risto and Sobotka, anyone interested in changing their position on Jbot?

[Thorner]

On 7/25/2019 at 5:21 PM, Thorny said:

Considered smart by those that are warm/lukewarm/moderate on him now, lucky by those who will torch him sans big 2C move.

Nope. Still more than happy to give him credit if things continue similarly to how they have so far. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Thorny

[Curt]

He should be fired immediately for this???  No, wait.  I think that’s wrong.

Seriously though, I’ve always liked Botterill’s style of the slow, sometimes cautious, build.  Even if I didn’t like every individual move that he’s made.  

I don’t think this is going to be a 120 point team this season, but I think/hope that we will continue to see gradual improvement with this team over the next couple years.  

Botterill is good in my book.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Curt
Spacing

[...]

44 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I should have mentioned the hiring of Ralph Kruger in my original post.

Now that we have seen Miller, Joker, MoJo and VO in action and the resurrection RK has done with Risto and Sobotka, anyone interested in changing their position on Jbot?

I could.  It's a ways off, though.  Ask me around the Christmas break.

[PerreaultForever]

It'll maybe sound like an on the fence answer but I think JBot's been a little of everything. Some good, some bad, some lucky, some not. So he's okay, and the foundation seems better now than it was when he got here so for me he keeps his job, gets a vote of confidence, but hasn't earned a contract extension yet.

Lucky to get Dahlin, unlucky to not win the next lottery and to get screwed by Berglund. 

Bad to hire Housley (unless that was all part of a clever tank v2). Good to hire Krueger.

Good to rebuild a solid farm system in Rochester, Good trades for Miller and Joki.

I still think the ROR trade had to be made for a variety of reasons, but the return was, to say the least disappointing so in the end he has to take the heat on that even if it was in the long term interests of the team's success and cultural turnaround. 

[dudacek]

My opinion continues to be that Botterill is a good administrator, with the targeting of Krueger doing a good job of cementing that.

Johansson, Miller and Jokiharju have me reassessing my fears that he is not a good judge of hockey talent.

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

My opinion continues to be that Botterill is a good administrator, with the targeting of Krueger doing a good job of cementing that.

Johansson, Miller and Jokiharju have me reassessing my fears that he is not a good judge of hockey talent.

Why are Botterill's previous talent acquisitions providing the internal opposition to your reassessment, when his Housley hire seems to not be? (re: "cementing", category: Administrator)

Was Housley purely a Pegula hire?

Edited October 21, 2019 by Thorny

[Curt]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Why are Botterill's previous talent acquisitions providing the internal opposition to your reassessment, when his Housley hire seems to not be? (re: "cementing", category: Administrator)

Was Housley purely a Pegula hire?

I have an unverifiable suspicion that Pegula had heavy influence on the hiring of Housley.  

[Thorner]

Just now, Curt said:

I have an unverifiable suspicion that Pegula had heavy influence on the hiring of Housley.  

I've certainly heard this speculated on before. 

[Curt]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I've certainly heard this speculated on before. 

Yes, I mostly subscribe to the notion. Can’t know for sure though, of course.

I also subscribe to the notion that Pegula refused to pay the O’Reilly bonus and forced an artificial deadline on the trade.  Also unverifiable.

Basically any poor Botterill move, I blame on Pegula.  ?

[Thorner]

30 minutes ago, Curt said:

Yes, I mostly subscribe to the notion. Can’t know for sure though, of course.

I also subscribe to the notion that Pegula refused to pay the O’Reilly bonus and forced an artificial deadline on the trade.  Also unverifiable.

Basically any poor Botterill move, I blame on Pegula.  ?

The ROR bonus thing was always, to me, a "don't let the fact that Pegula refused to pay the bonus distract you from the fact that Botterill decided to move him in the first place" kind of thing. 

If Pegula was the original brain behind the Housley hire it mitigates things far more, particularly given the reports the Botterill actually considered Krueger the first time, if I am remembering correctly. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Thorny

[Taro T]

57 minutes ago, Curt said:

I have an unverifiable suspicion that Pegula had heavy influence on the hiring of Housley.  

The Housley hire had the Stench of Brandon all over it.  Not saying that Botterill wasn't on board, but that had ALL the features of a Brandon special.

[GASabresIUFAN]

My understanding is the RK was Jbot’s first choice before he hired PH.  The story was RK wanted to continue running the soccer team and wasn’t interested in returning to coaching.  
I’ll have to find the link where I read this.
 

 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Why are Botterill's previous talent acquisitions providing the internal opposition to your reassessment, when his Housley hire seems to not be? (re: "cementing", category: Administrator)

Was Housley purely a Pegula hire?

Purely is too strong a word. I think Botterill was on board with both that, and the O’Reilly trade and has to wear each, but there were also extenuating circumstances in each that have been hinted at but not fully spelled out.

But mostly they are both cumulative body of work discussions.

Overall, I like the way Botterill seems to treat people and feedback I hear from and about those around him, I like the methodical way he tore down the scouting and development departments and how he seemed committed to putting the right foundation in place first. I’ve liked the types of low-risk high return player acquisitions. and I’ve liked the contract decisions he’s made under the cap. He just seems to understand organizational structure and culture beyond the buzzwords, and how crucial they are for long-term organizational success. And he seems to understand the cap. So basically, a lot of positive little moves seemed to add up to a generally smart administrator.

But with player acquisition it was the opposite. Pouliot was a bust. Griffith was bad, Josefson was bad, Nolan was bad, Scandella was good, but fell apart. Beaulieu was a mess. Sheary disappointed. Hutton was great value but couldn’t sustain it. Berglund quit. Sobotka was awful. Only the shining light of Jeff Skinner stopped this area from being an utter disaster. But now, in addition to Mojo and Miller and Joker looking good, Hutton and Sheary and Scandella and Sobotka are looking more like the players we hoped we were acquiring. Who knows if that will last, but it at least has forced some reconsidering.

(I won’t relitigate the O’Reilly trade, but think Housley was everyone around the rookie GM told him Phil was a great choice, the owner was excited about it, the resume looked good, the interview went well, the values seemed to align, and the market wasn’t offering a ton of choices.)

Edited October 22, 2019 by dudacek

[Curt]

53 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

My understanding is the RK was Jbot’s first choice before he hired PH.  The story was RK wanted to continue running the soccer team and wasn’t interested in returning to coaching.  
I’ll have to find the link where I read this.

I don’t think he was referred to as “first choice”, but supposedly Botterill did speak with Krueger before the Housley hire.  Krueger wasn’t in a situation to come back to NHL coaching at that time though. 

[bob_sauve28]

I know he got lucky being able to draft Dahlin, but he’s really done an excellent job with-increasing the solid depth on defense. Now this Gilmore just steps in and plays well and we don’t miss a beat. Heck, we get a shut out. He’s even making sure to draft d-men which I like. 

 

 

[North Buffalo]

22 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I know he got lucky being able to draft Dahlin, but he’s really done an excellent job with-increasing the solid depth on defense. Now this Gilmore just steps in and plays well and we don’t miss a beat. Heck, we get a shut out. He’s even making sure to draft d-men which I like. 

 

 

Now he needs to find more talented forwards