Jbot Referendum - Is he Good or Bad or Are You Unsure?

[Zamboni]

JB will have this upcoming entire season to get the team to trend in the right direction. 

IF IF IF the team misses the playoffs AND is bottom or near bottom feeder, I think Pegulas fire him. If the team looks good most of the year, but barely miss the playoffs, he’ll get another season. 

Other factors like key long term injuries or sitting on his hands during the season if the team struggles could affect his job security one way or the other. 

I wouldn’t use such broad sweeping absolutes like “he sucks” or “he’s awesome”. Because that indicates an F or A+ grade.  I think to date, all things considered over the course of 3 off seasons, 3 drafts, and 2 hockey seasons, and what’s he’s helped do in Roch. he’s a solid C+/B-. Good, but much room for improvement. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Zamboni

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What are peoples' expectations for a 2C?  50 pts? More?  The number 60 center in scoring last year had 46 pts.  Hischier had 47, JT Miller 47, Tyler Johnson 47.  

By the way, Reinhart, who is still listed as a center by NHL.com, was 33 rd with 65 pts.  Marcus Johansson had 17g and 44 pts in his last 87 regular season games.  The solution may already be on the roster.  Also what if Mitts jumps from his 25 pts as a rookie to 45+ this coming season?

 

This might be a good thread of its own. 

[Zamboni]

12 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

This might be a good thread of its own. 

True, but you don’t include a player just because nhl.com lists them as a center ?

A list of 2nd line centers should be counted if they played a majority of last season as a center. Doesn’t that make the most logical sense?

i would expect, on a good deep team, a 2nd line center to get roughly 50-60 points and play a damn good two way game. On a shallow bad team, roughly under 50 points.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Zamboni

[PerreaultForever]

I would revisit this question at the end of this upcoming season.   At the moment, he seems like a failure, albeit a lesser failure than his predecessor, but a failure nonetheless. Optimistically I am still hoping that we've bottomed out already and are on the brink of the great surge upwards but I just don't know. I am completely uncertain of the new coach, the new style (if there is one), a signed long term Skinner, Jack's ability to lead, etc etc etc...............I simply have absolutely no idea what we will see on the ice this year. 

With this season we should have a better idea of what his drafting has been like so far and what the cupboard looks like, and then I can grade him properly. 

For the record I still think no GM could have won for us in the ROR situation. That is just better buried and forgotten. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

True, but you don’t include a player just because nhl.com lists them as a center ?

A list of 2nd line centers should be counted if they played a majority of last season as a center. Doesn’t that make the most logical sense?

i would expect, on a good deep team, a 2nd line center to get roughly 50-60 points and play a damn good two way game. On a shallow bad team, roughly under 50 points.

I was referring to the idea of the "expectations". 

But I do agree with what you suggested.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I would revisit this question at the end of this upcoming season.   At the moment, he seems like a failure, albeit a lesser failure than his predecessor, but a failure nonetheless. Optimistically I am still hoping that we've bottomed out already and are on the brink of the great surge upwards but I just don't know. I am completely uncertain of the new coach, the new style (if there is one), a signed long term Skinner, Jack's ability to lead, etc etc etc...............I simply have absolutely no idea what we will see on the ice this year. 

With this season we should have a better idea of what his drafting has been like so far and what the cupboard looks like, and then I can grade him properly. 

For the record I still think no GM could have won for us in the ROR situation. That is just better buried and forgotten. 

What are you referring to in the bolded section? Anyone in particular?

[triumph_communes]

Best GM we’ve ever had. Building not only a roster of talent, but culture that will sustain success.  This takes more time than meek fans will have patience for, but all that really matters is the owner here.  And I believe Terry has learned after striking out with the hotshots in two different sports and has gravitated to culture guys for both

Struck out on Housley, but I believe Krueger in two years was his plan B from the get go. And good GMs always have a plan B and C ready. That is what former GMs like Murray never had, and ultimately is what Terry said got him fired. 

His roster turnover over year to year has been staggering, fixing our cap structure with a bunch of short contracts. Hasn’t signed a bad contract yet. Trade returns are mixed, but his “losses” have all been on guys with locker room problems that our last idiot GM wasted the piggy bank on. Compare our defensive depth from his date of hire to now and you won’t find a comparable turnaround anywhere else, it was really that epic of a job. 

Only thing he could’ve done better is find a coach who wasn’t the most sought after coach in the league the year they hired him. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by triumph_communes

[Sabres Fan in NS]

@PerreaultForever, maybe it's just me and it has been many times just me, but I don't think that your new avatar will sit well with many female and male posters here, myself included ... 

+++++ 

To the matter at hand ...

It is early to tell for sure, but IMO JBOTT started from less than zero, as he deemed his version of the Sabres would be pretty much the exact opposite of Murray's version.  He deemed that he had to undue most of what Murray did and start over, so this has gained him condsiderable time for me anyway.  Is this his third offseason?  I can't remember.  Either way, for me he has this coming season and the next before I really start to think about it.

Edited July 24, 2019 by New Scotland (NS)
and another thing ... I think there should be a poll in order to call this thread a referendom ... how can you have a referendom without a vote ...

[Curt]

In general, I think he is good.  

Positives:  I like his overall philosophy of building an entire organization full of good people, top to bottom, as opposed to building an NHL hockey team and figuring that everything else would work itself out.  I know people sometimes scoff at the culture stuff, but I’m of the opinion that you need quality human beings to truly excel in a team environment.  I’ve liked the majority of his trades.  I’ve liked the type of defensemen that he has brought in, especially recently.  I mostly like the way that he has managed the cap, having Buffalo in good financial shape moving forward.

Negatives:  The O’Reilly trade obviously, though I have an inkling that he was given something of an ultimatum from above.  Not adequately addressing scoring depth hamstrung the team last season.  Goaltending is still a bit of a question mark.  These will need to be sorted out moving forward.  I wish that Reinhart had been locked up long term last offseason.  I feel like that was a missed opportunity to get a good value contract.  The Housley hiring didn’t turn out well.

Although there have been a few blemishes along the way, I feel that the team is on the right track.  I find myself looking forward to, rather than dreading, the next next roster move.  Botterill gets a B from me.

[Curt]

3 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

@PerreaultForever, maybe it's just me and it has been many times just me, but I don't think that your new avatar will sit well with many female and male posters here, myself included ... 

For the record, it’s not just you.  I definitely did a double take.  I don’t know what passes for appropriate around here though.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Best GM we’ve ever had. Building not only a roster of talent, but culture that will sustain success.  This takes more time than meek fans will have patience for, but all that really matters is the owner here.  And I believe Terry has learned after striking out with the hotshots in two different sports and has gravitated to culture guys for both

Struck out on Housley, but I believe Krueger in two years was his plan B from the get go. And good GMs always have a plan B and C ready. That is what former GMs like Murray never had, and ultimately is what Terry said got him fired. 

His roster turnover over year to year has been staggering, fixing our cap structure with a bunch of short contracts. Hasn’t signed a bad contract yet. Trade returns are mixed, but his “losses” have all been on guys with locker room problems that our last idiot GM wasted the piggy bank on. Compare our defensive depth from his date of hire to now and you won’t find a comparable turnaround anywhere else, it was really that epic of a job. 

Only thing he could’ve done better is find a coach who wasn’t the most sought after coach in the league the year they hired him. 

Still expecting there to be quite a bit of remorse over not getting Reinhart signed to an LT deal rather than a bridge when we see the next contract he signs.

And, while we all agree Skinner had to be re-signed, time will tell if the contract ends up a good one.  It very well will look bad the last couple of seasons (Especially with 8 years worth of NMCs) but it still was the right play at the time.

[triumph_communes]

51 minutes ago, Curt said:

In general, I think he is good.  

Positives:  I like his overall philosophy of building an entire organization full of good people, top to bottom, as opposed to building an NHL hockey team and figuring that everything else would work itself out.  I know people sometimes scoff at the culture stuff, but I’m of the opinion that you need quality human beings to truly excel in a team environment.  I’ve liked the majority of his trades.  I’ve liked the type of defensemen that he has brought in, especially recently.  I mostly like the way that he has managed the cap, having Buffalo in good financial shape moving forward.

 Negatives:  The O’Reilly trade obviously, though I have an inkling that he was given something of an ultimatum from above.  Not adequately addressing scoring depth hamstrung the team last season.  Goaltending is still a bit of a question mark.  These will need to be sorted out moving forward.  I wish that Reinhart had been locked up long term last offseason.  I feel like that was a missed opportunity to get a good value contract.  The Housley hiring didn’t turn out well.

Although there have been a few blemishes along the way, I feel that the team is on the right track.  I find myself looking forward to, rather than dreading, the next next roster move.  Botterill gets a B from me.

I am so sick of seeing the phrase "winning brings culture".  It's such BS.  Winning just covers up flaws and makes finding root causes harder to find.  The culture at so many top-competing companies are pure trash, and is why they turnover so quickly.  Only the ones that managed to get there with culture ever sustain.

[Drunkard]

I find it hilarious that people equate the O'Reilly trade with the attempt of switching to a winning culture. Can someone explain to me how that quitter Patrik Berglund and that horrible no talent bum Vladimir Sobotka represent a winning culture more than O'Reilly? Because I'd love to hear that one.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Drunkard

[Zamboni]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

For the record, it’s not just you.  I definitely did a double take.  I don’t know what passes for appropriate around here though.

It’s very loose around here. Posters get to derail threads and the posts don’t get removed from the threads. Posters get to add political comments and opinions and the posts don’t get removed from the threads. I noticed you can’t type certain swear words, but if you post a photo (meme or gif) saying those same words, it’s accepted, and isn’t removed from the thread. It’s very loose around here... for most posters. And yes, that Avatar is rather crude.

Now back to your regularly scheduled “wringing my hands over JB thread” ?

[GASabresIUFAN]

It will be interesting to see how opinions change if Jbot takes Risto (or others) following the end of arbitration.  The Skinner deal was August 2nd I believe.

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

For the record, it’s not just you.  I definitely did a double take.  I don’t know what passes for appropriate around here though.

I like your new avatar, I think.  What shade is the blue?  

It looks great, but the blue thing ...

For the record, I don't really care what colour the uniforms are, so long as the players wearing them put in a good effort and start to win.  That's all I ask.

[shrader]

I don't want to dive too deeply into this since we're basically beating the corpse of the zombie horse at this point with this topic.  What I will say is that I like his clear focus on the blue line.  As far as I'm concerned, that's the foundation of any hockey team, something we've been severely lacking for a while now.  Will it work?  That's another story, but at least it's clear that he realizes that.

[Curt]

10 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I like your new avatar, I think.  What shade is the blue?  

It looks great, but the blue thing ...

For the record, I don't really care what colour the uniforms are, so long as the players wearing them put in a good effort and start to win.  That's all I ask.

It’s royal blue of course, haha.  No, honestly, I’m not sure.  It’s a mock-up of a royal blue goat head that I’ve seen floating around the Internet.  I unfortunately do not know the original creator.

I would love to see a royal blue goat head as a 3rd jersey some year though.

[DarthEbriate]

Is this thread the prequel or the sequel to the "Tim Murray was a complete disaster" thread? That will sway my opinion.

JBot is building the foundation for the future (Rochester may have bowed out meekly in the playoffs but their season was very good; Cincinnati was even better in the regular season, but also whiffed in the playoffs). Playoff exits notwithstanding, the overall structure and competition in the organization is much better. He's building a speed roster; I think that's good.

But so far, no playoffs for the Sabres -- which is the single most important measure. He got fleeced in one trade; fleeced Carolina in another; and ... had to move Kane at the deadline because he wasn't likely to re-sign here -- that happens every year, and it's a push -- (unless Johnson becomes and elite defender, then yay!).

I'm voting patience. And I vote for sacrificing Han and Leia. Because I honor what JBot is fighting for.

[PerreaultForever]

17 hours ago, Curt said:

For the record, it’s not just you.  I definitely did a double take.  I don’t know what passes for appropriate around here though.

really? just a fun pin-up style thing I saw on the internet and liked it. She's animated/drawn so is this some sort of PC culture problem I'm too old to get? 

Can be removed if it's a problem, but I've seen far worse in some posts here. No big for me either way.

[PerreaultForever]

20 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

What are you referring to in the bolded section? Anyone in particular?

all the picks really but specifically those closer to being or not being nhl players. They don't have to make the club yet but they do have to rank high in prospect lists or play in Rochester and play well. Luukonen and Laaksonen. Can Bryson play at a higher level. Samuelsson and Pekar. Guys like that. 

[Curt]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

really? just a fun pin-up style thing I saw on the internet and liked it. She's animated/drawn so is this some sort of PC culture problem I'm too old to get? 

Can be removed if it's a problem, but I've seen far worse in some posts here. No big for me either way.

For me personally, part of it is that I find the sexy anime stuff to be pretty creepy.

Im not demanding that you remove it.  I’m not even adamant that it’s inappropriate.  Just that I personally would not feel comfortable putting it up myself.

[StuckinFL]

I actually disagree with alot of what's being said here. I don't think this season will define him. I think this off season will. If he does nothing more for the 2nd line, is perceived as doing too little, or a bad move, the fanbase will turn and blame him and not the coach or the players. If he is seen making more good moves, solidifying up the 2nd line, then our focus will be on a brand new coach or the new players and he'll be looked at as a good GM that's still cleaning up a mess.

Either way, I think the narrative on who JBot is will be decided in the next 2 months. If we turn on him the season would have to be amazing for that narrative to change. If we're behind him, the season would have to be an absolute dumpster fire for us to change our minds. 

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, StuckinFL said:

I actually disagree with alot of what's being said here. I don't think this season will define him. I think this off season will. If he does nothing more for the 2nd line, is perceived as doing too little, or a bad move, the fanbase will turn and blame him and not the coach or the players. If he is seen making more good moves, solidifying up the 2nd line, then our focus will be on a brand new coach or the new players and he'll be looked at as a good GM that's still cleaning up a mess.

Either way, I think the narrative on who JBot is will be decided in the next 2 months. If we turn on him the season would have to be amazing for that narrative to change. If we're behind him, the season would have to be an absolute dumpster fire for us to change our minds. 

Doesn't really matter if the fans turn on him.  If the team's bad, they will; if it isn't they won't.

What matters is whether Pegula turns on him.  And, short of another 80-ish point season, don't see that happening.  (Perhaps not even then, depending on circumstances.)

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

all the picks really but specifically those closer to being or not being nhl players. They don't have to make the club yet but they do have to rank high in prospect lists or play in Rochester and play well. Luukonen and Laaksonen. Can Bryson play at a higher level. Samuelsson and Pekar. Guys like that. 

Good list, however, those guys are pretty much already top prospects. I want to keep an eye on players like Weissbach, Davidsson, and maybe Huglen, Murray, Fitzgerald.