Jbot Referendum - Is he Good or Bad or Are You Unsure?

[Drunkard]

12 minutes ago, darksabre said:

If folding your hand before the flop is fun then, well, have fun with that I guess.

You're right. We should probably wait another 2 years before anyone decides if we like the direction that Botterill has the team heading in. Maybe by that point he'll have already been fired for a year and we won't have to discuss it at all.

[darksabre]

4 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

You're right. We should probably wait another 2 years before anyone decides if we like the direction that Botterill has the team heading in. Maybe by that point he'll have already been fired for a year and we won't have to discuss it at all.

Why not just wait till like... December? Seeing the new coach, seeing where the roster is at, would probably be of some value before deciding that everything is already f*cked on a Tuesday in late July.

 

[Skibum]

Not a fan. The O'Reilly trade was a disaster. He hired Housley. He has since brought in a bunch of middling players and mediocre prospects, the kind we have to really reach to feel optimistic about. I can't figure out what his strategy is for developing prospects, as there isn't much rhyme or reason to the call-ups we see. Drafting Dahlin - a chimp could have made that call. Now, nobody good wants to play in Buffalo. I don't see this team improving much this year, either, when I take an honest look at the roster. Jimmy Vesey, Colin Miller, Marcus Johnasson - None of these guys are difference makers, and outside of Dahlin there is no young talent that really makes you excited to see how they pan out.  I can see Eichel getting traded to kick off another re-build before I see this team turning it around. 

 

Harrupmph. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, LTS said:

The truth.

-------------------

These days I often wonder how those who are slamming Botterill today will react if the Sabres are winning and he proves to be a successful GM.  It should prove to be an interesting experience. 

 

 

I agree and will add on to this that if you look at it from a different perspective...you can't argue there has been improvement.

Some people say we are a less talented team and JBotts may be worse at evaluating talent because we no longer have ROR/Kane/and Lehner. How do you replace a Conn Smythe winner, a Vezina finalist, and a player like Kane? 

When Botts took over, Murray's team WITH those 3 players, finished with 78pts (33wins). Botts' first year WITH those 3 players dives to the bottom and we end up with Dahlin. JBott gets rid of those 3 aforementioned players and WITHOUT them we finish with the same exact 33wins (76pts). And that's not to mention Berglund walking. We replaced Kane with Skinner which IMO was a slight upgrade. We replaced Lehner with Hutton....we could argue this one all day. We have yet to replace ROR which could arguably take quite some time to do as far as replacing all the things he brings to the game.  If we even remotely upgrade our #2C position we should be a better team and all without those 3 players. IMO, it will be a position that will likely be filled through developing a player within the system because if you look around the league rosters, not many teams have a true #2C anywhere near ROR available to give up, especially at a reasonable cost without hampering the future (both theirs and ours).

Then add in the pipeline. Presently I'd have to give Jbotts credit for added depth, but I'd also have to give credit to Murray for the players that are currently ready to step up such as Olofsson and Asplund and possibly others (Borgen comes to mind).

All-in-all I have to give Botts a better grade at first time GM than Murray. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think you actually agree with me.  This team needs to show improvement this season.  Another under 80 pt season will be a disappointment considering the additions of Miller, Montour, Johansson and Jokiharju so far.  If that happens, I worry that TP tosses Jbot.  If they improve, but don’t make the playoffs, I agree he gets year 4. 

Did you forget Vesey also was added? Or would you like to forget?

[ddaryl]

We will know if JBot is a keeper at the end of this season. If Krueger and the offseason pick ups don't move us up the standings and have us at least playing meaningful hockey during the end of the regular season then I will be done with JBot. Housley was a bad choice so this is his 2nd coaching choice. He won't be allowed a 3rd

 

I expect fruit on the tree this year....

Edited July 23, 2019 by ddaryl

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

9 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

We will know if JBot is a keeper at the end of this season. If Krueger and the offseason pick ups don't move us up the standings and have us at least playing meaningful hockey during the end of the regular season then I will be done with JBot. Housley was a bad choice so this is his 2nd coaching choice. He won't be allowed a 3rd

 

I expect fruit on the tree this year....

There's question as to whose choice that was.

[Tondas]

I'll give JBOT this year and next.  I'd like to see some progress this year but next year is the key for me with all the UFAs coming off the books and 3 drafts under his belt.  Plus it gives us at least 2 years to see what RFK can do.  I think JBOT is smart, he seems to be well connected throughout the NHL and by all accounts  is respected.  I'm not sure who I'd replace him with right now.  I'm for staying the course with a new GM growing into the job.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Tondas

[ddaryl]

16 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

There's question as to whose choice that was.

That don't matter, his name is on the deed. If he didn't want Housley then he should of stood his ground.... 

 

[LTS]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

You're right. We should probably wait another 2 years before anyone decides if we like the direction that Botterill has the team heading in. Maybe by that point he'll have already been fired for a year and we won't have to discuss it at all.

I suppose its better to just let people go when they don't achieve immediate success.  I wonder, if your kid didn't make the varsity team if you'd put him up for adoption.

[Tondas]

15 minutes ago, LTS said:

I suppose its better to just let people go when they don't achieve immediate success.  I wonder, if your kid didn't make the varsity team if you'd put him up for adoption.

Wholeheartedly agree with the first part.  I've turned around many businesses and you can't just snap your fingers to success.  With JBOT, he has bad contracts, union issues, player evaluations, etc..  He had to revamp the scouting dept.  There's only so much he can do in 2-3 years.  He's only been a GM for 2 years.  Progress is great and expected, but a playoff run in years 1-2 is overoptimistic.  Let's give the guy a chance.  This year progress; definitively.  Next year with all the cap space and another draft; playoffs.  If that fails, there will still be plenty of time to buy the tar and feathers.

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

Like the long-term approach he takes, the thoughtful template he has created for the organization and the businesslike way he runs it.

Like his propensity for collecting mobile defencemen. Hate the fact he has yet to fill the key roles of 2C and 1G.

Baffled by the ROR move.

Skeptical of his player evaluation skills.

 

The latter is key. I’m open to idea that Botterill needed some time to put his stamp on the organization and build his vision. Generally, GMs should get five years before they can be fairly and fully judged.

But it’s year three. I need to see positive contributions and growth from the players he has acquired and developed. Playoffs or playoff-bubble. 

Very much agree with the entirety of your post up until your conclusion. It's time for much higher expectations than "growth". 

4 hours ago, Taro T said:

Unsure, but cautiously optimistic.

Agree in large part with the OP.

With the exception of what he got back for the 3 key pieces that Murray brought in via trade that he &/or upper management decided needed to be gone & the choice of his 1st HC, believe he has at minimum not flailed and in several cases may have done very well.

Felt he could have gotten more in return for Kane had he been more flexible on the return mid-season.  Still very much dislike the O'Reilly deal, but there's definitely more to that story than we're privy to, so actually cut him a pass on that one.  And doubt there was any other reasonable course of action on Lehner.  When you're dealt a bad hand, folding is a legit option.

Still would like to have seen a 6 year deal for Reinhart rather than the bridge.  Expect he could've been had for ~$6-6.5MM/ year and now will end up around $8MM/ year. 

He does seem to have a reasonable LT plan in place, which is good.  His unwillingness to deviate from it when conditions change significantly from what they were when the plan was formulated (quick start to season, getting about $4.5MM in cap space magically dropped in his lap), isn't.

The Montour and Skinner pick ups will likely provide dividends for years.  His other moves all pretty much seem lateral at worst and bringing in upgrades of talent without weakening the prospect pool significantly at best.

Bringing in a successful goalie coach could be his biggest move to date this off-season.  Getting October-November goaltending all season would be huge.  They showed they can do it; now hopefully they can do it sustainably.

If Krueger isn't a washout, this team should be competing for a playoff spot until early March and if he upgrades 2C until early April.

Similarly I agree with this post as well, but if he doesn't upgrade 2C, and we miss the playoffs, he should be fired. He can't double down on a lackluster C core 2 years straight. Fireable offense. 

[Drunkard]

56 minutes ago, LTS said:

I suppose its better to just let people go when they don't achieve immediate success.  I wonder, if your kid didn't make the varsity team if you'd put him up for adoption.

Not at all, but kudos on the snark. I think even a jerk like me would be more caring and understanding to a family member whom I care about than some guy the hockey team I happen to root for hired as general manager, but if you to raise Jason Botterill to same status that you'd have for your family have at it. I don't equate the two at all.

I still think he should be fired for the O'Reilly trade though. Destroying our center depth with no replacement was a grave enough sin for me to give him his walking papers, but I don't have that power (which I'm sure most of you are thrilled about). I didn't like his approach in the way he traded Kane or the return he got for him either but I've explained why on many occasions so I'll leave it at that. 

My response to Dark had more to do with sitting on the fence with regards to the question in the OP though. I think 2 years is enough time to at least start leaning heavily in either direction at this point and he is still on the wait and see approach. The fact that it's a hockey board and the middle of July is precisely why fence sitting is boring. There's no games to watch or talk about so speculating about the upcoming season and the future of the team in general is basically the only thing to talk about this time of the year, so if we all took his ultra measured, wait and see approach and nobody got worked up over anything I'd have to find something else to read on my downtime at work and on my phone.

[Drunkard]

2 hours ago, darksabre said:

Why not just wait till like... December? Seeing the new coach, seeing where the roster is at, would probably be of some value before deciding that everything is already f*cked on a Tuesday in late July.

 

Precisely because it's July. There are no games to watch or talk about and I'd rather discuss Botterill than read the gun thread, the fishing thread, or discuss which shade of blue the Sabres will ultimately decide on for their anniversary jerseys. 

You equated it to poker earlier but it's nothing like that because there's no financial stakes for posting your opinion on here, unless you play poker without gambling. There's no reason to be super conservative or hedge your bets on a Jason Botterill opinion. In the end, what does it matter if you're right or wrong? We're all pretty much spitballing for now and we'll find out either way as actual games get played. Our opinions don't have any impact on what ultimately happens anyway. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

13 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

Not at all, but kudos on the snark. I think even a jerk like me would be more caring and understanding to a family member whom I care about than some guy the hockey team I happen to root for hired as general manager, but if you to raise Jason Botterill to same status that you'd have for your family have at it. I don't equate the two at all.

I still think he should be fired for the O'Reilly trade though. Destroying our center depth with no replacement was a grave enough sin for me to give him his walking papers, but I don't have that power (which I'm sure most of you are thrilled about). I didn't like his approach in the way he traded Kane or the return he got for him either but I've explained why on many occasions so I'll leave it at that. 

My response to Dark had more to do with sitting on the fence with regards to the question in the OP though. I think 2 years is enough time to at least start leaning heavily in either direction at this point and he is still on the wait and see approach. The fact that it's a hockey board and the middle of July is precisely why fence sitting is boring. There's no games to watch or talk about so speculating about the upcoming season and the future of the team in general is basically the only thing to talk about this time of the year, so if we all took his ultra measured, wait and see approach and nobody got worked up over anything I'd have to find something else to read on my downtime at work and on my phone.

This is why I think he's still around. So many people think he should've been fired because of that trade and that leads me to believe that it wasn't his choice to trade ROR. Also, seeing that we don't know what other offers were on the table there's no way to know if he didn't make the best of a bad situation. The offers may have been better had we paid the $7MM bonus but were they $7MM better?

[Drunkard]

9 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

This is why I think he's still around. So many people think he should've been fired because of that trade and that leads me to believe that it wasn't his choice to trade ROR. Also, seeing that we don't know what other offers were on the table there's no way to know if he didn't make the best of a bad situation. The offers may have been better had we paid the $7MM bonus but were they $7MM better?

If they weren't then you keep the great all around center who is under a great contract. You don't settle for the shiniest turd you can get at that moment.

Culture this and that but the way this team packed it in after the winning streak was over shows that the culture here is still pretty much ***** despite Botterill moving out Murray's problem children in Kane, Lehner, and O'Reilly.

[Taro T]

57 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Very much agree with the entirety of your post up until your conclusion. It's time for much higher expectations than "growth". 

Similarly I agree with this post as well, but if he doesn't upgrade 2C, and we miss the playoffs, he should be fired. He can't double down on a lackluster C core 2 years straight. Fireable offense. 

While I agree with this, I expect that if we don't see that true #2C brought in, the absence of bringing one in is indicative that management has not given him a playoffs or bust hard line & that he has convinced ownership that Mittelstadt will be ready for that role next season so the Sabres shouldn't overspend for that ST 2C.

This said, realizing there are still almost 2-1/2 months of off-season remaining, and there is still a legitimate chance that one is brought in.  (Likely as a result of Ristolainen going out; directly or indirectly.)

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

While I agree with this, I expect that if we don't see that true #2C brought in, the absence of bringing one in is indicative that management has not given him a playoffs or bust hard line & that he has convinced ownership that Mittelstadt will be ready for that role next season so the Sabres shouldn't overspend for that ST 2C.

This said, realizing there are still almost 2-1/2 months of off-season remaining, and there is still a legitimate chance that one is brought in.  (Likely as a result of Ristolainen going out; directly or indirectly.)

Yup, I think he almost certainly has another 2 years guaranteed, regardless. 

[Taro T]

Just now, Thorny said:

Yup, I think he almost certainly has another 2 years guaranteed, regardless. 

Yep.  Unless they truly screw the pooch, year 4 is his year of reckoning.

[GASabresIUFAN]

What are peoples' expectations for a 2C?  50 pts? More?  The number 60 center in scoring last year had 46 pts.  Hischier had 47, JT Miller 47, Tyler Johnson 47.  

By the way, Reinhart, who is still listed as a center by NHL.com, was 33 rd with 65 pts.  Marcus Johansson had 17g and 44 pts in his last 87 regular season games.  The solution may already be on the roster.  Also what if Mitts jumps from his 25 pts as a rookie to 45+ this coming season?

 

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What are peoples' expectations for a 2C?  50 pts? More?  The number 60 center in scoring last year had 46 pts.  Hischier had 47, JT Miller 47, Tyler Johnson 47.  

By the way, Reinhart, who is still listed as a center by NHL.com, was 33 rd with 65 pts.  Marcus Johansson had 17g and 44 pts in his last 87 regular season games.  The solution may already be on the roster.  Also what if Mitts jumps from his 25 pts as a rookie to 45+ this coming season?

 

Highly doubt Reinhart shifts back to centre, not only given Botterill's comments on the matter, but due to our lack of depth at RW. 

Mitts may do that (I probably wouldn't bet on it, even Reinhart only jumped 5 points year 1-2), but counting on it wouldn't seem to be a very smart strategy if playoffs really are the goal and making it is actually something they seriously want to do this coming season.

Johansson I think is the failsafe option at 2C. If no one else is brought it, I think he might start at 2C. I'd certainly give it a chance, but if it doesn't work, Botterill gaffed big time, again, at 2C.

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What are peoples' expectations for a 2C?  50 pts? More?  The number 60 center in scoring last year had 46 pts.  Hischier had 47, JT Miller 47, Tyler Johnson 47.  

By the way, Reinhart, who is still listed as a center by NHL.com, was 33 rd with 65 pts.  Marcus Johansson had 17g and 44 pts in his last 87 regular season games.  The solution may already be on the roster.  Also what if Mitts jumps from his 25 pts as a rookie to 45+ this coming season?

 

With Olofsson &  Reinhart likely the 2Ws, would hope the 2C ends up low - mid 50's.  (He won't likely get 1st PP time, but Sam (on his way to mid-60's) will.). Anything over 56 is gravy.

High 40's at a minimum.

Really don't see Mittelstadt getting over 45 points this season unless he got a lot stronger.  Also, expect he'll be on the ice for at least that many against if he is 2C.

[Scottysabres]

Right now I'm unsure. To many moving parts.......

Or not enough........

Depends on my alcohol intake the night before and which hand wakes up first.... 

[Andrew Amerk]

JBott will be fine!

[GoPuckYourself]

I like what I've seen from Botteril so far, I think he has the Rochester Americans in the right direction with guys who can help out if called upon. I think the roster as of today is an improved one but I like most of us would really like to see a 2nd line center added.

I like what he's done in the drafts so far and think these players have a great future here... Mittelstadt, Luukkonen, Samuelson, Dahlin, Cozens and Johnson. 

I know I'm in the minority here but I think he did the right thing trading Ryan O'Reilly who clearly didn't want to be here and of course there would be no compensation worth getting the Blues a cup, we had a solid team here with O'Reilly and it just wasn't working for whatever reason. 

I don't blame him for swinging and missing on Housley, he was considered a top notch HC candidate at the time but Krueger is his 2nd HC hire and it would be tough to defend him if this fails also. 

I really thought we got Skinner, Montour and Miller for great prices and think they'll be big pieces moving forward.

I really hope Ristolainen stays but if we deal him I really am crossing my fingers it's for Ryan Nugent-Hopkins. 

I think with better defense and hopefully better goaltending that this team can compete for the playoffs this season.