Tim Murray was a complete disaster for the Buffalo Sabres

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

55 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Maybe he wouldn’t have been overcompensating so hard for taking responsibility for their trash performance during the Bylsma years if he took responsibility upfront for being an idiot. 

 

Nah, instead his younger brother he got a sweetheart deal for totally trashed the Amerks locker room simultaneously instead. 

That doesn't answer the question and he's not responsible for his OLDER brother.

Done talking about ROR.

Edited July 21, 2019 by MakeSabresGrr8Again

[erickompositör72]

Ask people in any front office around the league about ROR’s life off the ice. Everyone knows.

You can’t say “oh, we don’t know that for sure, but we know for sure JBott is a moron for trading him.”

Can’t have your cake & eat it, too

[TrueBlueGED]

2 hours ago, erickompositör72 said:

Ask people in any front office around the league about ROR’s life off the ice. Everyone knows.

You can’t say “oh, we don’t know that for sure, but we know for sure JBott is a moron for trading him.”

Can’t have your cake & eat it, too

We could just leave it in the realm of things we know, ya know? Like, he's a tremendous hockey player so trading him for the return we got was stupid. There doesn't have to be a good reason otherwise to defend Botterill...he would hardly be the first GM to simply make a poor evaluation and get worked in a subsequent trade. 

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

We could just leave it in the realm of things we know, ya know? Like, he's a tremendous hockey player so trading him for the return we got was stupid. There doesn't have to be a good reason otherwise to defend Botterill...he would hardly be the first GM to simply make a poor evaluation and get worked in a subsequent trade. 

This is in fact preferable to me than the notion that he was “forced” into it. 

[Taro T]

29 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

We could just leave it in the realm of things we know, ya know? Like, he's a tremendous hockey player so trading him for the return we got was stupid. There doesn't have to be a good reason otherwise to defend Botterill...he would hardly be the first GM to simply make a poor evaluation and get worked in a subsequent trade. 

 

23 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This is in fact preferable to me than the notion that he was “forced” into it. 

And right now, we all have our own expectation of WHY the trade happened when it did and there is very little that will change those expectations/ interpretations.

The only 1 that springs to mind is one of Pegula, Botterill, or Housley spilling the beans.  And considering we still to this date don't officially have the real story of LaFontaine's departure, not expecting any of them to sing anytime soon.

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Maybe he wouldn’t have been overcompensating so hard for taking responsibility for their trash performance during the Bylsma years if he took responsibility upfront for being an idiot. 

 

Nah, instead his younger brother he got a sweetheart deal for totally trashed the Amerks locker room simultaneously instead. 

Oh my.    

[SwampD]

7 hours ago, erickompositör72 said:

Ask people in any front office around the league about ROR’s life off the ice. Everyone knows.

You can’t say “oh, we don’t know that for sure, but we know for sure JBott is a moron for trading him.”

Can’t have your cake & eat it, too

I can. That trade sucked. Anyone that claims to know anything about anything related to ROR in the locker room is full of *****.

That trade sucked.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

22 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Oh my.    

I said the same thing. See my post above.

[shrader]

On 7/20/2019 at 5:37 PM, Pimlach said:

Living in St Louis and watching them play I can confidently tell you they are wrong. 

In the regular season ROR was the team leader in games played, second in goals, first in assists, first in points, first in plus minus, first in face offs, first in Short handed points.   So he was the Teams offensive leader AND he won the Selke Trophy for top defensive forward in the NHL   But he “didn’t carry anything”? 

On top of that his playoff performance was superb as lead the team in points and came up huge in the SCF scoring goals in the last four games.   Oh, yeah he won the Calder Trophy so maybe some other folks besides me thought he played well too. 

 

He had such an incredible season that they even named him rookie of the year??

[erickompositör72]

12 hours ago, SwampD said:

I can. That trade sucked. Anyone that claims to know anything about anything related to ROR in the locker room is full of *****.

That trade sucked.

But that's exactly my point. I'm addressing those who think the trade is conclusive evidence that JBott is incompetent.

As you pointed out, we simply do not know the situation, therefore the conclusion of incompetence is tenuous. 

[Drunkard]

12 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

But that's exactly my point. I'm addressing those who think the trade is conclusive evidence that JBott is incompetent.

As you pointed out, we simply do not know the situation, therefore the conclusion of incompetence is tenuous. 

Res Ipsa Loquitor - the things speaks for itself.

Horrible trade means he's either a complete moron or he's a spineless weenie. Either way we lose.

[erickompositör72]

1 minute ago, Drunkard said:

Res Ipsa Loquitor - the things speaks for itself.

Horrible trade means he's either a complete moron or he's a spineless weenie. Either way we lose.

In a world where everything's black and white

[Drunkard]

10 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

In a world where everything's black and white

In a world where Tim Murray was a complete disaster for acquiring 4 legitimate top 6 forwards, then Jason Botterill is a complete moron or a spineless weenie for running 2 of them off the team while only acquiring 1 and giving that one a horrible contract.

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, shrader said:

He had such an incredible season that they even named him rookie of the year??

But he is a rookie....1st season in a real locker room? or 1st year he wasn't a problem in one. Depends on which side of the fence you're on.

[GASabresIUFAN]

https://www.diebytheblade.com/2018/7/1/17524056/ryan-oreilly-trade-buffalo-sabres-st-louis-blues-thompson-berglund-sobotka-picks-nhl-free-agency

I hate to rehash the ROR trade again and again and again, but I’d like to note what respected hockey writer Pierre LeBrun said on 7/1/18.

Quote

1st 2019. 2nd 2021. Tage Thompson. Sobotka. Berglund. That is a major return for the Sabres. I get why the Blues did it, they add ROR and Bozak today and they're a better team. But given the midnight pressure to deal ROR, impressive by Jason Botterill

Plus we didn’t have to pay his bonus (most of his annual compensation). 

I know people here are suffering from ROR derangement syndrome but we essentially received two 1st rd picks and a 2nd rd pick for ROR.  The team that gives up the best player always loses these deals in the short-term.  However with Thompson and now Johnson, we could have two key pieces for a decade.  Does anyone really think we in Atlanta regret for a minute trading Doyle Alexander, who immediately helped the Tigers win a WS, for John Smoltz?

Also I wonder if people here would feel the same way if StL had failed to make the playoffs.  I remember many happy people looking forward to a mid 1st draft pick and enjoying ROR begin stuck on another last place team midway through this past season while we were near the top.

I am a big supporter of Jbot’s plan because I think he is building the team the right way (as opposed to TM).  However I also have been critical of some of his moves or lack of moves.  I still think he didn’t get enough for Kane and I think he failed to do enough to support the team last year after Berglund went AWOL.  However as to ROR, I’m reserving judgement until I see how Johnson and Thompson develop.  

I also believe there is more to ROR’s departure then has been published.  We know he had problems with management in Colorado and he now has been traded twice by teams that needed his skill set before and after the the trade.  He also know he crashed his truck into a Tim Horton’s and was charged with driving impaired.  He only got off because the Horton’s employee couldn’t identify him as the driver of the truck.  We also know the Sabres gave his brother a sweetheart deal and that said brother was a terrible influence on the kids in Rochester.   I think it is reasonable to infer from these facts that the relationship between the Sabres and the O’Reilly brothers deteriorated over time and when added to Ryan’s sulky attitude got him traded out of Buffalo.  A very angry TP wanted him gone before we had to pay his bonus, which likely the limited the compensation the Sabres received for him.  I’d love to have been a fly on the wall of his season ending exit interview.  I also suspect there was other conduct that lead to the trade.

If my inferences are correct, I have zero problem with trading ROR.  However where Jbot really gets an F on this deal is not making sure he had an adequate replacement.  Sobotka and Berglund where 3rd and 4th line players in Stl.  It was asking to much to expect one of them or Mitts to step into ROR’s 2C role.  He should have had a better contingency plan and once Berglund went AWOL he should have acquired someone else to step in.  I suggested Johansson back then.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[LTS]

14 hours ago, SwampD said:

I can. That trade sucked. Anyone that claims to know anything about anything related to ROR in the locker room is full of *****.

That trade sucked.

Guess I'm full of ****.  Good to know.

So done with people just shitting on others around here.

[Zamboni]

15 minutes ago, LTS said:

Guess I'm full of ****.  Good to know.

So done with people just shitting on others around here.

I don’t think he was saying you personally are full of it. He just doesn’t believe any story about ROR in the locker room unless YOU were actually physically one of those observing instances of ROR in the locker room. Or at the very very least, one degree away from someone who were actually physically in the locker room. 

That’s certainly not an unreasonable mindset. I kind of lean that way myself. ?‍♂️

[North Buffalo]

35 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I don’t think he was saying you personally are full of it. He just doesn’t believe any story about ROR in the locker room unless YOU were actually physically one of those observing instances of ROR in the locker room. Or at the very very least, one degree away from someone who were actually physically in the locker room. 

That’s certainly not an unreasonable mindset. I kind of lean that way myself. ?‍♂️

I hear you and I lean the other way.  I see him as a tough player who when just focused on hockey is pretty good... but a lot of his actions off the ice seemed overly focused on himself and not as a leader.  Again hard to tell because we were not there, but I was hoping for more from ROR.  Maybe he isnt cable of that kind of leadership and our expectations were too high.  There was some sort of disconnect in Buffalo and maybe a more experienced coach could have dealt with it more effectively.  I suspect in ROR's case, having been raised in an alcoholic family, he showed signs of both brilliance and being lost... classic family dynamics of dysfunction.  My opinion only.  The way he handled these issues effected him on this team and again not a good fit given the Sabres team dynamics.  I believe the inexperience of Housley hurt ROR a lot and I do think he tried given the tools he had.  Again we dont know the real story... and bottom line... it didnt work for the Sabres.

Edited July 22, 2019 by North Buffalo

[SwampD]

 

41 minutes ago, LTS said:

Guess I'm full of ****.  Good to know.

So done with people just shitting on others around here.

Looking back at this thread, you didn't make any claims to knowing anything, so you're good.

I'm done with it, too. Slinging "alcoholic" and "cancer" at ROR over and over is tiresome.

[shrader]

7 minutes ago, SwampD said:

 

Looking back at this thread, you didn't make any claims to knowing anything, so you're good.

I'm done with it, too. Slinging "alcoholic" and "cancer" at ROR over and over is tiresome.

Oh sure, but you're perfectly ok with naming him rookie of the year with ten years of NHL experience under his belt.  I suppose that's no less ridiculous than letting yet another thread spiral down this path for the 85th time this week.

[SwampD]

11 minutes ago, shrader said:

Oh sure, but you're perfectly ok with naming him rookie of the year with ten years of NHL experience under his belt.  I suppose that's no less ridiculous than letting yet another thread spiral down this path for the 85th time this week.

Summer...

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

If my inferences are correct, I have zero problem with trading ROR.  However where Jbot really gets an F on this deal is not making sure he had an adequate replacement.  Sobotka and Berglund where 3rd and 4th line players in Stl.  It was asking to much to expect one of them or Mitts to step into ROR’s 2C role.  He should have had a better contingency plan and once Berglund went AWOL he should have acquired someone else to step in.  I suggested Johansson back then.

 

 

Your last paragraph is the only thing I disagree with.

A lot of suggestions for the #2c have been decent to questionable 3C's. The decent ones coming from teams like TB whom are deep with talent and contenders on a regular basis. We got 5 pieces for ROR because no 1 piece was expected to fill all the voids created by losing ROR, it was expected more that replacement by committee to be a factor. Berglund was a 3rd liner who career numbers suggested a 20g scorer. Where Botts may have failed was in thinking he could drive the 2nd line even temporarily while Mitts was sheltered.

Johansson might be a decent pick up but I'm done with "settling" for maybes. Would rather have a true #2C even if it's temporary. Depending on whom it is as to how long with such considerations as to age, contract term, cost, talent, etc.

When these convos started we were discussing players like Schenn, Couturier, etc and ended up going on to guys like Anisimov, Johnson, Toffoli, and then further on to Johansson, Burakovsky, etc. ( throw JT Miller in there somewhere).

I've always liked Mitts, but I don't think he's gonna be the revelation that some think he will be. I'm starting to think he might end up a wing. However, I am willing to give him the chance to become that 2C. I'm actually more excited about Cozens, could be the new shiny toy syndrome ,LOL.

The cost of a true #2C may be hindering the process for sure and that might be the problem. Just sick of always settling.

Berglund leaving really threw a wrench into things and I agree Botts should have done something sooner.

[Never NEVER Give-up]

On 7/17/2019 at 5:37 PM, IKnowPhysics said:

There was a significant amount of ownership and fan pressure to pull the team back from the tank, and, make no mistake, time by itself was not going to make the team better.

As Marv used to say, "if you start listening to the fans it won't be long before you're sitting with them".

[PerreaultForever]

On 7/18/2019 at 5:31 AM, ... said:

Well, I would make the argument that since he was a big player, he really doesn't understand how larger players impact the game.  He might have saw select smaller players whizzing hither and yon on the ice and marked that, not realizing the smaller guys are impacted by the larger dudes probably just as equally.

Well since he didn't impact the game on the ice a whole lot at the pro level maybe he suffers from low self esteem. 

Myself, I would build tougher first as anyone who has read me before knows but I'm not sure JBot is totally wrong, just that his way will be frustrating and take more time. I am thinking he feels you build the skill first and when you are good but your downfall is playoff toughness that last part is easier to add at the end. My fear is that the culture of winning and players supporting each other etc. is harder to build with his method. 

[dudacek]

Not interested in litigating the ROR trade again.

For those who are, Botterill traded him for Patrik Berglund, Vlad Sobotka, Tage Thompson, Colin Miller and Ryan Johnson.