Tim Murray was a complete disaster for the Buffalo Sabres

[Randall Flagg]

41 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

In the interest of full disclosure, Tim Murray was a complete disaster for the Buffalo Sabres......in my view. Which may or may not be correct, I just view him that way lol.

But, one lesson I did learn from the GMTM administration is that the 0 fux given strategy was ultimately a failed one. ?

Grateful for you bringing this opinion forward and turning it into a nice summer thread! 

[dudacek]

24 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

That's fine. You're welcome to your opinion. I think Botterill is worse than Murray in everything except communication with the owner. Murray's teams didn't go anywhere but most of his tenure his team was designed to lose on purpose to secure some top end talent. By the time Botterill got here it was supposed to be all about winning but he's had less success than Murray when Botterill is supposedly trying to win.

People tend to defend whoever is here and then shred them after they leave so the majority of people who are defending Botterill now will join me in criticizing him after he's gone. I look forward to that because:

1. It will be nice to actually agree with the majority opinion again.

2. I don't think the team will really turn a corner until he is replaced with someone who can evaluate talent instead of relying on volume shooting as his plan A in order to find diamonds in the rough.

This year will push me off the fence on JBot’s talent acquisition and player development abilities.

I need to see growth from the Mittelstadt, Thompson, Olofsson, Ullmark, Asplund group. I need to see contributions from Johansson, Vesey, Miller, Montour, Hutton and Sheary.

Edited July 19, 2019 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

That's fine. You're welcome to your opinion. I think Botterill is worse than Murray in everything except communication with the owner. Murray's teams didn't go anywhere but most of his tenure his team was designed to lose on purpose to secure some top end talent. By the time Botterill got here it was supposed to be all about winning but he's had less success than Murray when Botterill is supposedly trying to win.

People tend to defend whoever is here and then shred them after they leave so the majority of people who are defending Botterill now will join me in criticizing him after he's gone. I look forward to that because:

1. It will be nice to actually agree with the majority opinion again.

2. I don't think the team will really turn a corner until he is replaced with someone who can evaluate talent instead of relying on volume shooting as his plan A in order to find diamonds in the rough.

Designed to lose?  TM was hired as GM 1/9/2014. He had 3.5 seasons as GM.  In no way were the 15-16 and 16-17 seasons designed to lose.  He acquired before 15-16 ROR, McGinn, Bogo, Kane, Gorges, Gionta, Lehner, Legwand, Chad Johnson, Moulson, Franson and McCormick to add to Jack, Sam and Risto.  All this work helped and got the team to 81 pts. 

He then added Kulikov and Okposo to try to push the team into the playoffs (and the franchise into cap hell) with an $80 mill payroll (cap 73 mill) and failed miserably.  After 3.5 seasons Tm’s last team finished with 78 pts good for 8th in the Atlantic.

TM had no intention of losing with those rosters.  None.  He just built terrible teams.

Unlike TM who had a blank canvas to work from, Jbot inherited a team in cap hell with a terrible roster filed with overpaid and underperforming vets and had to start a proper rebuild in earnest.  He methodically cleaned out most of the bad contracts and focused for two years on turning this team into Jack’s team right or wrong.  The team has improved as it is basically back to where TM had it, but without the bloated payroll or cap hell and got lucky with Dahlin in the process.  Now it is time to get this team to or near the playoffs.  I am also worried still about the 2C slot and agree guys like Mitts and Olofsson need to step forward and help take the team to the next level.  Jbot has certainly worked to improve their chances.  He has added Montour, Miller, Vesey, Jokiharju, and Johansson to this roster for this season.  He also probably isn’t done with the roster surgery.  

TM was a disaster and nothing will ever change that.  

Whether or not Jbot’s teams surpass TM’s squads only time will tell.  I suspect this team will jump into the 87-92 pt. range.  If not Jbot could also be gone.  Regardless if Jbot survives the season or not, I think he has the organization and prospect pipeline in a much better place then he found it two years ago and for that I’m grateful.

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[Drunkard]

29 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Designed to lose?  TM was hired as GM 1/9/2014. He had 3.5 seasons as GM.  In no way were the 15-16 and 16-17 seasons designed to lose.  He acquired before 15-16 ROR, McGinn, Bogo, Kane, Gorges, Gionta, Lehner, Legwand, Chad Johnson, Moulson, Franson and McCormick to add to Jack, Sam and Risto.  All this work helped and got the team to 81 pts. 

He then added Kulikov and Okposo to try to push the team into the playoffs (and the franchise into cap hell) with an $80 mill payroll (cap 73 mill) and failed miserably.  After 3.5 seasons Tm’s last team finished with 78 pts good for 8th in the Atlantic.

TM had no intention of losing with those rosters.  None.  He just built terrible teams.

Unlike TM who had a blank canvas to work from, Jbot inherited a team in cap hell with a terrible roster filed with overpaid and underperforming vets and had to start a proper rebuild in earnest.  He methodically cleaned out most of the bad contracts and focused for two years on turning this team into Jack’s team right or wrong.  The team has improved as it is basically back to where TM had it, but without the bloated payroll or cap hell and got lucky with Dahlin in the process.  Now it is time to get this team to or near the playoffs.  I am also worried still about the 2C slot and agree guys like Mitts and Olofsson need to step forward and help take the team to the next level.  Jbot has certainly worked to improve their chances.  He has added Montour, Miller, Vesey, Jokiharju, and Johansson to this roster for this season.  He also probably isn’t done with the roster surgery.  

TM was a disaster and nothing will ever change that.  

Whether or not Jbot’s teams surpass TM’s squads only time will tell.  I suspect this team will jump into the 87-92 pt. range.  If not Jbot could also be gone.  Regardless if Jbot survives the season or not, I think he has the organization and prospect pipeline in a much better place then he found it two years ago and for that I’m grateful.

 

I guess I was off on the timing of Murray's hiring but if he was here for 3.5 seasons and they intentionally lost for 1.5 seasons that's still 40% of his tenure. I agree that Murray overspent on some bad contracts (mainly Moulson and Okposo plus trading for Bogosian) but the rest of the contracts were short term and not really bad considering where the team was from a competitive standpoint.

You certainly attempt to paint a rosy picture of Botterill's meager accomplishments and how he was saddled with such a horrible starting point but that's fool's gold as well. When Murray got his top centers were Cody Hodgson, Tyler Ennis, Johan Larsson, and Zemgus Girgensons. When Botterill got here he inherited Jack Eichel, Ryan O'Reilly, Zemgus Girgensons, and Johan Larrson. And you're actually trying to argue that Botterill had a more difficult starting point? Not a chance.

From where I'm standing he didn't methodically clean out anything either. He ran out the clock on Moulson's contract before demoting him near the end and is doing the same with Okposo and Bogosian. He took a great contract with no protections for O'Reilly (a top 6 center) and spent that money (plus some) on a winger that he now has locked up until he's 35 at big money and has a full NMC. He took another top 6 winger in Kane and instead of keeping him or trying to get a good piece for him, held out for some idiotic 4 pieces including a 1st round pick nonsense that nobody was going to spend on a pending UFA and stuck to his ridiculous ask until it was nearly too late and ending up selling him off for a conditional pick that he was lucky turned into a 1st and some nobody who isn't even here any more.

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Drunkard

[nucci]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

This year will push me off the fence on JBot’s talent acquisition and player development abilities.

I need to see growth from the Mittelstadt, Thompson, Olofsson, Ullmark, Asplund group. I need to see contributions from Johansson, Vesey, Miller, Montour, Hutton and Sheary.

So, most of the team?

[dudacek]

29 minutes ago, nucci said:

So, most of the team?

The players he has gone out and acquired and or developed as part of the effort to make us better

[Stoner]

[Scottysabres]

4 hours ago, Drunkard said:

That's fine. You're welcome to your opinion. I think Botterill is worse than Murray in everything except communication with the owner. Murray's teams didn't go anywhere but most of his tenure his team was designed to lose on purpose to secure some top end talent. By the time Botterill got here it was supposed to be all about winning but he's had less success than Murray when Botterill is supposedly trying to win.

People tend to defend whoever is here and then shred them after they leave so the majority of people who are defending Botterill now will join me in criticizing him after he's gone. I look forward to that because:

1. It will be nice to actually agree with the majority opinion again.

2. I don't think the team will really turn a corner until he is replaced with someone who can evaluate talent instead of relying on volume shooting as his plan A in order to find diamonds in the rough.

Well, I'm not all on board with Botterill as of yet. In fairness, he was saddled with some bad contracts. I guess my only ??? on his moves to date was the ROR move. Not so much the return, because reports are there were better offers for him if the bonus was paid, but I really want to know why ROR was moved. Yes he did speak his mind at end of season, but why on the hockey god's frozen earth would you move your 2C without a plan to fulfill that hole, if not in the medium term future (in season through a deal) then immediately in the off season as you make the deal. That is so telling, at least to myself, that Botterill had convinced the Pegula's to ride out this past season with what they had and let the kids develop a bit more and make it happen this off season. This is the very reason why I 100% believe, without question, Botterill isn't remotely done with this "roster surgery".

But, I digress on the Botterill scenario's, I just got mostly caught up on the huge waste of expenditures Tim Murray went through asset wise. I mean honestly, truly honestly, it's just straight out jaw dropping wow, just WOW, to myself in any event given the utter failure of the return on those assets.

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 hours ago, Drunkard said:

I guess I was off on the timing of Murray's hiring but if he was here for 3.5 seasons and they intentionally lost for 1.5 seasons that's still 40% of his tenure. I agree that Murray overspent on some bad contracts (mainly Moulson and Okposo plus trading for Bogosian) but the rest of the contracts were short term and not really bad considering where the team was from a competitive standpoint.

You certainly attempt to paint a rosy picture of Botterill's meager accomplishments and how he was saddled with such a horrible starting point but that's fool's gold as well. When Murray got his top centers were Cody Hodgson, Tyler Ennis, Johan Larsson, and Zemgus Girgensons. When Botterill got here he inherited Jack Eichel, Ryan O'Reilly, Zemgus Girgensons, and Johan Larrson. And you're actually trying to argue that Botterill had a more difficult starting point? Not a chance.

From where I'm standing he didn't methodically clean out anything either. He ran out the clock on Moulson's contract before demoting him near the end and is doing the same with Okposo and Bogosian. He took a great contract with no protections for O'Reilly (a top 6 center) and spent that money (plus some) on a winger that he now has locked up until he's 35 at big money and has a full NMC. He took another top 6 winger in Kane and instead of keeping him or trying to get a good piece for him, held out for some idiotic 4 pieces including a 1st round pick nonsense that nobody was going to spend on a pending UFA and stuck to his ridiculous ask until it was nearly too late and ending up selling him off for a conditional pick that he was lucky turned into a 1st and some nobody who isn't even here any more.

 

Franson was 3 years, McCormick 3 years, Gorges 4 years, Gionta 3 years.  Those are not 1-2 year deals.  

So Jbot had ROR and Eichel when he came, and a top 6 forward with an expiring contract who didn't want to be in Buffalo and didn't mesh with Eichel on the ice. Yeah!  He also had holdover contracts of about 45 million to contend with including Ennis, Gorges, KO, Moulson, McCormick and others.  Add to the mess no extra high draft picks and a roster of players not suited for today's NHL. You complain about the Kane trade, but he turned that 1st into a top pairing D in Montour.  He took Kane's money and gave it to a superior player in Skinner.  I'd much rather have Skinner and Montour then Kane.  Maybe that's just me.  You complain that all he did was let bad deals expire. What else could he do?  Who wanted Gorges or KO or Bogo at any price? He did turn Ennis' bad deal into two productive years from Pommers and depth D in Scandella.  I call that a win.

This was a much worse situation then TM stepped into which included of a stockpile of draft picks including 3 1st rd picks and the 3 2nd rd picks in 2015.  Those Sabres had only one bad contract (Gorges), prospects such as Eichel and Samson and tons of money under the cap to work with.  

TM wastes it all.  Had to TM been competent at his job and just a little patient with the assets he was given, we'd be in the playoffs already and he might still be the GM.

Edited July 19, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[Drunkard]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Franson was 3 years, McCormick 3 years, Gorges 4 years, Gionta 3 years.  Those are not 1-2 year deals.  

So Jbot had ROR and Eichel when he came, and a top 6 forward with an expiring contract who didn't want to be in Buffalo and didn't mesh with Eichel on the ice. Yeah!  He also had holdover contracts of about 45 million to contend with including Ennis, Gorges, KO, Moulson, McCormick and others.  Add to the mess no extra high draft picks and a roster of players not suited for today's NHL. You complain about the Kane trade, but he turned that 1st into a top pairing D in Montour.  He took Kane's money and gave it to a superior player in Skinner.  I'd much rather have Skinner and Montour then Kane.  Maybe that's just me.  You complain that all he did was let bad deals expire. What else could he do?  Who wanted Gorges or KO or Bogo at any price? He did turn Ennis' bad deal into two productive years from Pommers and depth D in Scandella.  I call that a win.

This was a much worse situation then TM stepped into which included of a stockpile of draft picks including 3 1st rd picks and the 3 2nd rd picks in 2015.  Those Sabres had only one bad contract (Gorges), prospects such as Eichel and Samson and tons of money under the cap to work with.  

TM wastes it all.  Had to TM been competent at his job and just a little patient with the assets he was given, we'd be in the playoffs already and he might still be the GM.

We just see it differently. I don't see how Murray wasted it all. He inherited a team with absolutely nothing worthwhile on the roster and a bunch of picks and futures. With the 50 contract limit there was literally no way he could have made all those picks.

He managed to turn a roster that had Zemgus Girgensons as its top center and he built a top 6 that had 4 good pieces including 2 quality prime aged centers and 2 quality prime aged wingers in Eichel, Reinhart, O'Reilly, and Kane. He definitely screwed up in choosing Moulson and Okposo to round out that top 6 but he gave us a quality center spine that put Girgensons back in the bottom 6.

Botterill got rid of 2 of those pieces and replaced them with one piece that is now under a much less favorable contract. He still hasn't found a replacement top 6 center and even when he does the odds that the FNG will be anywhere near the caliber of O'Reilly are somewhere between slim and none.

Who knows though? Maybe Johansson manages to adequately fill in at 2nd line center and some of his other darts turn into diamonds in the rough as well. Remembering how the team fell apart after 48 and 23 left though, I'm not a fan of the bubble gum and duct tape approach to the center position.  

[nfreeman]

Good stuff here boys.

[Kruppstahl]

On 7/17/2019 at 5:27 PM, Scottysabres said:

Looking back on the moves Tim Murray made, the piss poor drafting in some cases, and the unabated disaster of spending draft picks and prospects capital on failed chemistry players in a rush to complete a rebuild that should have been given time to work itself out, I believe it's fairly safe to say that former GM Tim Murray was not only a complete disaster for the Buffalo Sabres, but he is the leading candidate for worse Sabres GM of all time.

He was indeed a disaster and he literally "set the franchise back years" as fans like to say regarding controversial moves.

He actually did that.

The funny thing is that I think he was generally very popular and very well liked by most serious Sabres fans, particularly those that like to comment all the time at chat forums like this one! 

And now, with the passage of time, we can plainly see that the widespread love for GMTM was grotesquely misplaced.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Kruppstahl said:

He was indeed a disaster and he literally "set the franchise back years" as fans like to say regarding controversial moves.

He actually did that.

The funny thing is that I think he was generally very popular and very well liked by most serious Sabres fans, particularly those that like to comment all the time at chat forums like this one! 

And now, with the passage of time, we can plainly see that the widespread love for GMTM was grotesquely misplaced.

 

Not me.  I liked his no nonsense approach at first, but the Lehner and McNabb trades did me in.  I thought both trades were dumb at the time and they are worse with the passage of time.  It was clear to me then that he had no idea on how to properly build a franchise for the long-term.

[Pimlach]

On 7/19/2019 at 9:27 AM, woods-racer said:

Till Binington got there they where dead last.

I don't think ROR carried anything except for Biningtons skate bag.

Living in St Louis and watching them play I can confidently tell you they are wrong. 

In the regular season ROR was the team leader in games played, second in goals, first in assists, first in points, first in plus minus, first in face offs, first in Short handed points.   So he was the Teams offensive leader AND he won the Selke Trophy for top defensive forward in the NHL   But he “didn’t carry anything”? 

On top of that his playoff performance was superb as lead the team in points and came up huge in the SCF scoring goals in the last four games.   Oh, yeah he won the Calder Trophy so maybe some other folks besides me thought he played well too. 

 

[Thorner]

On 7/19/2019 at 9:52 AM, Randall Flagg said:

Binnington faced the fewest and least dangerous shots per unit ice time of any goalie to play NHL hockey this year

It was important that they got not-worst-in-league goaltending but he wasn't some Savior either. He did exactly what they needed and stopped the shots he should.

Exactly. Argued this all playoffs. Binnington's arrival correlated with the Blues turn around more than it caused it. 

In related news, Binnington getting a Calder nomination (and being ranked above Dahlin) over Heiskanen was a mistake. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Thorny

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Living in St Louis and watching them play I can confidently tell you they are wrong. 

In the regular season ROR was the team leader in games played, second in goals, first in assists, first in points, first in plus minus, first in face offs, first in Short handed points.   So he was the Teams offensive leader AND he won the Selke Trophy for top defensive forward in the NHL   But he “didn’t carry anything”? 

On top of that his playoff performance was superb as lead the team in points and came up huge in the SCF scoring goals in the last four games.   Oh, yeah he won the Calder Trophy so maybe some other folks besides me thought he played well too. 

 

He and Tarasenko pretty much disappeared half way thru the Dallas series and in the SJ series. I remember some announcers saying the keys to the game were that those two needed to step it up on many nights. Also, ROR had near 50% in the FO circle ....no where near his near 60% any other time.

I concede that ROR is a very good all around player and what he did in St Louis he also did here in Buffalo. He was basically the same player he was here only difference being we didn't win the cup so he could get that recognition and he was better here in the FO circle. Even though he was personally performing well early in the season he was still on a last place team until the coaching change and Binnington came along. He made no real difference even being on a much better team.

like I said, I have nothing against ROR as a player and admit that he gives his best on the ice and you know what you're gonna get on a nightly basis. There's just something about him that I just can't put my finger on  that stops me from calling him a game changer. Maybe it's that you know he gives his all and you can't expect more, I don't really know what it is.

[Pimlach]

54 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

He and Tarasenko pretty much disappeared half way thru the Dallas series and in the SJ series. I remember some announcers saying the keys to the game were that those two needed to step it up on many nights. Also, ROR had near 50% in the FO circle ....no where near his near 60% any other time.

I concede that ROR is a very good all around player and what he did in St Louis he also did here in Buffalo. He was basically the same player he was here only difference being we didn't win the cup so he could get that recognition and he was better here in the FO circle. Even though he was personally performing well early in the season he was still on a last place team until the coaching change and Binnington came along. He made no real difference even being on a much better team.

like I said, I have nothing against ROR as a player and admit that he gives his best on the ice and you know what you're gonna get on a nightly basis. There's just something about him that I just can't put my finger on  that stops me from calling him a game changer. Maybe it's that you know he gives his all and you can't expect more, I don't really know what it is.

Never said he was a “ game changer “.  Just an excellent core player on a Cup winner.  He did a lot for his team.  The fact that the Blues were in last place was not his fault, nor was it when he was in Buffalo.   

Even with the coaching change and the hot goalie I do not see the Blues winning this without ROR.  Neither does any one else in this town.  

He never disappeared in any of the playoff series  and I don’t recall any announcers talking about such rubbish.  The media called out Bergeron and maybe his game was off because ROR our played him?  Both were hurt. ROR had rib and shoulder issues all series.  

 Berube  did call out Tarasenko and lit a fire under him.  Berube did that all year with this team. 

Lots of Buffalo fans can hate on O’Rielly that is their prerogative but for a poster to say he was not a big reason for their success is short cited. Take ROR off this team and add Berglund, Sobotka,  and Tage beckon it  and their would be no Cup here for another year.  

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

28 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Never said he was a “ game changer “.  Just an excellent core player on a Cup winner.  He did a lot for his team.  The fact that the Blues were in last place was not his fault, nor was it when he was in Buffalo.   

Even with the coaching change and the hot goalie I do not see the Blues winning this without ROR.  Neither does any one else in this town.  

He never disappeared in any of the playoff series  and I don’t recall any announcers talking about such rubbish.  The media called out Bergeron and maybe his game was off because ROR our played him?  Both were hurt. ROR had rib and shoulder issues all series.  

 Berube  did call out Tarasenko and lit a fire under him.  Berube did that all year with this team. 

Lots of Buffalo fans can hate on O’Rielly that is their prerogative but for a poster to say he was not a big reason for their success is short cited. Take ROR off this team and add Berglund, Sobotka,  and Tage beckon it  and their would be no Cup here for another year.  

 

I agree with most of what you said. But leave ROR on the team and take out Binnington  they don't win the cup either so the point is moot  You said it perfectly...a core player on a cup winner. No one player wins a cup and it takes a team(something I hope we'll have here in WNY).

What I said about the bolded I absolutely stand behind and is not rubbish. Also, I'm not "hating" on ROR anywhere in my post.

[triumph_communes]

12 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Never said he was a “ game changer “.  Just an excellent core player on a Cup winner.  He did a lot for his team.  The fact that the Blues were in last place was not his fault, nor was it when he was in Buffalo.   

Even with the coaching change and the hot goalie I do not see the Blues winning this without ROR.  Neither does any one else in this town.  

He never disappeared in any of the playoff series  and I don’t recall any announcers talking about such rubbish.  The media called out Bergeron and maybe his game was off because ROR our played him?  Both were hurt. ROR had rib and shoulder issues all series.  

 Berube  did call out Tarasenko and lit a fire under him.  Berube did that all year with this team. 

Lots of Buffalo fans can hate on O’Rielly that is their prerogative but for a poster to say he was not a big reason for their success is short cited. Take ROR off this team and add Berglund, Sobotka,  and Tage beckon it  and their would be no Cup here for another year.  

 

 

ROR was taken out of the Buffalo locker room because he was an alcoholic that was being a bad example for the kids. Just because ROR could play well despite being an alcoholic doesn’t mean others could.  Key, unarguable example: Lehner.

 

Botterill did the moves he did to transform a broken locker room with ineffective leadership. ROR went to another locker room, became just a guy instead of expected to be ‘the guy’, and he was a core component of a Stanley Cup team. That, mind you, was last place in the league in November and needed a coaching change and goalie change before they turned things around. Lehner went to freaking rehab and turned his career around. 

 

Fact is, neither of those players would’ve rebounded like that staying with Buffalo. Sometimes people need a change of scenery. They fell into their traps because of what Murray built. Botterill gave them a go, and then abandoned them when they failed miserably. 

[#freejame]

7 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

 

ROR was taken out of the Buffalo locker room because he was an alcoholic that was being a bad example for the kids. Just because ROR could play well despite being an alcoholic doesn’t mean others could.  Key, unarguable example: Lehner.

 

Botterill did the moves he did to transform a broken locker room with ineffective leadership. ROR went to another locker room, became just a guy instead of expected to be ‘the guy’, and he was a core component of a Stanley Cup team. That, mind you, was last place in the league in November and needed a coaching change and goalie change before they turned things around. Lehner went to freaking rehab and turned his career around. 

 

Fact is, neither of those players would’ve rebounded like that staying with Buffalo. Sometimes people need a change of scenery. They fell into their traps because of what Murray built. Botterill gave them a go, and then abandoned them when they failed miserably. 

Please find me anything at all that says ROR is an alcoholic. It’s absolute non-sense that gets thrown around here so much. It’s a baseless attempt to assassinate the character of someone. DWI=/= alcoholic. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

 

ROR was taken out of the Buffalo locker room because he was an alcoholic that was being a bad example for the kids. Just because ROR could play well despite being an alcoholic doesn’t mean others could.  Key, unarguable example: Lehner.

 

Botterill did the moves he did to transform a broken locker room with ineffective leadership. ROR went to another locker room, became just a guy instead of expected to be ‘the guy’, and he was a core component of a Stanley Cup team. That, mind you, was last place in the league in November and needed a coaching change and goalie change before they turned things around. Lehner went to freaking rehab and turned his career around. 

 

Fact is, neither of those players would’ve rebounded like that staying with Buffalo. Sometimes people need a change of scenery. They fell into their traps because of what Murray built. Botterill gave them a go, and then abandoned them when they failed miserably. 

Unproven and Slanderous statements on the Internet will not change my opinion.  All we hear in St Louis is how good ROR is for the locker room.  No issues reported.   What is reported is:  model citizen, total professional, first to work, mentor to young players, mentally tough, last to leave.  

Who are all these great leaders on the Blues?  A team that always makes the playoffs and is out by round 2?   All we hear in St Louis is ROR provided the leadership and example that others in the past could  not.  He was not “just a guy”, we was a key ingredient in taking the step they could never take before.  Sure, they found a goalie and a coach  - winning the Cup takes a team effort no doubt. 

We see his numbers, we saw him go head to head with Bergeron and Co.  We see the NHL handing him hardware.  Yet he is “just a guy” on a good team so didn’t have to lead - that narrative is wrong.  He led this team in almost every important statistical category in both the regular season and in the playoffs.  

A change of scenery can be quite telling.  Leaving Buffalo has helped the careers of ROR and Kane and Lehner but these players were all in totally different situations.  ROR never gave us a bad season.  His was consistently productive in all the situations he has been in.  His crime was wanting to win and feeling anguish that they were not progressing, and then telling that to the media.  

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Pimlach

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

45 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Unproven and Slanderous statements on the Internet will not change my opinion.  All we hear in St Louis is how good ROR is for the locker room.  No issues reported.   What is reported is model citizen, total professional, first to work, mentor to young players, mentally tough, last to leave.  

Who are all these great leaders on the Blues?  A team that always makes the playoffs and is out by round 2?   All we hear in St Louis is ROR provided the leadership and example that others in the past could  not.  He was not “just a guy”, we was a key ingredient in taking the step they could never take before.  Sure, they found a goalie and a coach  - winning the Cup takes a team effort no doubt. 

We see his numbers, we saw him go head to head with Bergeron and Co.  We see the NHL handing him hardware.  

A change of scenery can be quite telling.  Leaving Buffalo has helped the careers of ROR and Kane and Lehner but these players were all in totally different situations.  ROR never gave us a bad season.  His was consistently productive in all the situations he has been in.  His crime was wanting to win and feeling anguish that they’re not progressing and then telling that to the media.  

 

While I agree with you, only time will tell. Personally, I'll wait to see when St Louis starts losing how well things go. If everything still is fine then great.

As for Lehner, again it's a wait and see. Why did Isles not re-sign him? He was Vezina candidate and signed for the same money as Varlamov ($5MM).

Kane was just....Kane, no better and no worse.

Agree on the proof that ROR has a drinking "problem" is unproven as fact.

As far as the bolded goes.....we heard all this in Buffalo too in the early stages. 

Again, I'll state that I have no real issues with ROR . I just put him on a shorter pedestal than some.

[triumph_communes]

Abandoning the scene of crimes after drunkenly crashing into an establishment named after a player who, died himself from drunk driving, and is in the rafters of the team he just signed a major contract to be the future captain of.  

 

The only character assassination going on here is you all pathetically trying to wipe these things away as nothingburgers. 

 

I was wrong. This was a great example he set forward for Sam and Jack. So great that they gift each other thousand dollar bottles of liquor for each other’s birthdays years later. Great influence ROR, Kane, and Bogosian had on our two budding superstars. 

 

Getting those tools out of the locker room needed to be done at any cost.  Murray spent TONS of capital on all the drunks mentioned above who amounted to nothing here. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by triumph_communes

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

7 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Abandoning the scene of crimes after drunkenly crashing into an establishment named after a player who, died himself from drunk driving, and is in the rafters of the team he just signed a major contract to be the future captain of.  

 

The only character assassination going on here is you all pathetically trying to wipe these things away as nothingburgers. 

 

I was wrong. This was a great example he set forward for Sam and Jack. So great that they gift each other thousand dollar bottles of liquor for each other’s birthdays years later. Great influence ROR, Kane, and Bogosian had on our two budding superstars. 

 

Getting those tools out of the locker room needed to be done at any cost.  Murray spent TONS of capital on all the drunks mentioned above who amounted to nothing here. 

So, if he remained at the scene of the crime and the establishment was called Dunkin', we wouldn't be having this pathetic convo about alcoholics? He would be a divine example for Jack and Sam.

[triumph_communes]

8 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

So, if he remained at the scene of the crime and the establishment was called Dunkin', we wouldn't be having this pathetic convo about alcoholics? He would be a divine example for Jack and Sam.

Maybe he wouldn’t have been overcompensating so hard for taking responsibility for their trash performance during the Bylsma years if he took responsibility upfront for being an idiot. 

 

Nah, instead his e: older brother he got a sweetheart deal for totally trashed the Amerks locker room simultaneously instead. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by triumph_communes