Where Does Risto End Up?

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Yeh but from what I saw ERod didnt do well shaking off hits whereas Nylander did= physical in my book.  Difference ERod kept going and Nylander often dumped the puck or passed it off.

So taking a hit and dumping the puck off makes you physical? I do not agree at all with that idea. 

[LGR4GM]

I just don't see how you can be called a physical player when your game is predicated on sitting in the soft spots and being around the perimeter. 

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Nylander is bigger than ERod, ERod is more physical than Nylander. 

True.  But being big can be significantly different from playing big.  And neither of those 2 play a heavy game.  (Rodrigues plays a tenacious game, but doesn't play "heavy."  Nylander does neither.)

Mike Peca was relatively tiny but epitomized the heavy, physical game.

The post lockout Sabres were, excepting for their captains and a couple others, a large squad ( just about everybody at least 6'0" & the vast majority of those 200+ as well) that played small / soft.

You don't have to be big to play heavy, but it surely helps.

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

True.  But being big can be significantly different from playing big.  And neither of those 2 play a heavy game.  (Rodrigues plays a tenacious game, but doesn't play "heavy."  Nylander does neither.)

Mike Peca was relatively tiny but epitomized the heavy, physical game.

The post lockout Sabres were, excepting for their captains and a couple others, a large squad ( just about everybody at least 6'0" & the vast majority of those 200+ as well) that played small / soft.

You don't have to be big to play heavy, but it surely helps.

But again, weight/heavy is not the be all end all. People are talking like we won't win because we aren't "big enough" and that isn't the case at all. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by LGR4GM

[Neo]

17 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Nylander is bigger than ERod, ERod is more physical than Nylander. 

Yes.  ERod is heavier.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

But again, weight/heavy is not the be all end all. People are talking like we won't win because we aren't "big enough" and that isn't the case at all.

Really not getting that vibe from the discussion so far.

Agree with the non bolded.

[North Buffalo]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I just don't see how you can be called a physical player when your game is predicated on sitting in the soft spots and being around the perimeter. 

I am making a distinction for clarification.  For example Risto is both physical and aggressive, so is Boston's McAvoy, Erod is aggressive, but wouldnt call him physical.., he tends to be guy hitting the deck.  Nylander is physical but not aggressive..  TT is aggressive, attempts to be physical and may become given the weight... muscle and he appeared to put on.  Jack has become more of both.  Just trying to flush out because I think it is often confused. 

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Really not getting that vibe from the discussion so far.

Agree with the non bolded.

There's been several comments with concern over the size of players. 

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

I am making a distinction for clarification.  For example Risto is both physical and aggressive, so is Boston's McAvoy, Erod is aggressive, but wouldnt call him physical.., he tends to be guy hitting the deck.  Nylander is physical but not aggressive..  TT is aggressive, attempts to be physical and may become given the weight... muscle and he appeared to put on.  Jack has become more of both.  Just trying to flush out because I think it is often confused. 

That seems fair. 

[dudacek]

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Nylander is bigger than ERod, ERod is more physical than Nylander. 

Size - like speed - is only relevant if you use it.

To me, there are four ways to win battles for contested space: skill (feet and hands) will (effort) power (physical strength) and IQ (positioning and reaction time).

Guys like Erod are always going to struggle against anyone who can match his will.

[Randall Flagg]

What a good conversation

[LGR4GM]

I just immediately rebel at the idea of size for size's sake. 

[Taro T]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

There's been several comments with concern over the size of players. 

There have been, but there hasn't been anything said afaict that teams can't win with small players or that the LA / St. Louis model is the only viable winning option.

A lot of this seems to have spun off from comments that at 6'0" or 6'1" that Jokiharju is a bit undersized.  Which he is for a D-man.  Doesn't mean he can't be effective.  (Krug 's a midget as far as D go but very good at both ends.). But, a big part of what D do is clear the crease, and it is MUCH harder to do that at 6'1" 195 than at 6'3" 220.

And because of that smaller size he MIGHT have issues winning puck battles against teams such as the Blues that do play a heavy grinding forecheck.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Taro T

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

There have been, but there hasn't been anything said afaict that teams can't win with small players or that the LA / St. Louis model is the only viable winning option.

A lot of this seems to have spun off from comments that at 6'0" or 6'1" that Jokiharju is a bit undersized.  Which he is for a D-man.  Doesn't mean he can't be effective.  (Krug 's a midget as far as D go but very good at both ends.). But, a big part of what D do is clear the crease, and it is MUCH harder to do that at 6'1" 195 than at 6'3" 220.

Is it though? Do you have to clear the crease or just tie up your man or their stick? Jokiharju at 6' 195lbs is plenty big enough to do that. He's also plenty big enough to lean on the guy in the crease. If the other team is that set up in your zone that there is a net front presence, you probably messed something else up to get there. Point shots are low success options so I think with the blocking of shots and such, clearing the crease has lost some necessity. I am not saying leave the guy in front alone but as long as you can effect him, you are doing what you need to do. 

I'd take a 6'1" 195lb quick player over a 6'3" 220 lb player who is less quick. 

[SwampD]

30 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Erod took hits and continued to push through and make plays. 

I like ERod. Always have.

 

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I just immediately rebel at the idea of size for size's sake. 

I feel the same way about speed.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I like ERod. Always have.

 

I feel the same way about speed.

Sure, speed is useless if you don't use it properly. That is a reason that Alex Newhook will always be a favorite. 

[nfreeman]

 

2 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

 

Awesome.

 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t, not after being without one for so long.

I do think the definition has changed though. It used to be defined as the big, aggressive lug - the Schoenfeld type. Now the top shutdown guys are the guys who calmly break up the rush and move it out of danger, like Teppo.

Dahlin will be this guy. Hopefully as soon as this year.

1 hour ago, jsb said:

Although I agree with you for the most part BUT sometimes you need to be able to move guys out from in front of the net where being physical and strong is usually a prerequisite and this is especially true in the playoffs.

As noted upthread, McCabe is the primary physical, responsible, shutdown defender (assuming he's not traded, of course).  

I agree with JSB -- If McCabe, Bogo and Risto are all gone, I think we will have a nastiness/hitting deficiency.  Skill and quickness can be great but a high-end defensive corps still needs an intimidation factor -- the Kronwall to Detroit's Lidstrom, or the Weber to Nashville's Josi.

 

 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

 

Awesome.

 

As noted upthread, McCabe is the primary physical, responsible, shutdown defender (assuming he's not traded, of course).  

I agree with JSB -- If McCabe, Bogo and Risto are all gone, I think we will have a nastiness/hitting deficiency.  Skill and quickness can be great but a high-end defensive corps still needs an intimidation factor -- the Kronwall to Detroit's Lidstrom, or the Weber to Nashville's Josi.

 

 

Why? Or maybe the better question is what does this mean? I watched Gerbe go after Chara, he didn't seem too intimidated. Intimidation only works if players buy into it. 

[LGR4GM]

Also, why can't Jokiharju, Miller, Dahlin be nasty? Do they need to be? If you strip the forward of the puck and are already exiting the zone there isn't a nasty need. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Is it though? Do you have to clear the crease or just tie up your man or their stick? Jokiharju at 6' 195lbs is plenty big enough to do that. He's also plenty big enough to lean on the guy in the crease. If the other team is that set up in your zone that there is a net front presence, you probably messed something else up to get there. Point shots are low success options so I think with the blocking of shots and such, clearing the crease has lost some necessity. I am not saying leave the guy in front alone but as long as you can effect him, you are doing what you need to do. 

I'd take a 6'1" 195lb quick player over a 6'3" 220 lb player who is less quick.

Depends on the player.  And if my team were predominantly made up with 1 type, would probably go for the other one all things overall being equal.

And I'm very pleased with them getting Jokiharju.  But stating he may have some issues due to his size isn't dissing him.  Quenneville had no issues with his size as he brought enough other things that he overcame those issues in his eyes.  Hopefully that holds here.

And being able to remove a screen is still a large part of the game.  (Especially nowadays when guys can't just crosscheck the heck out of their opponents (Bruins getting to do it being the exception that proves the rule ? ).)

[LGR4GM]

Jokiharju: https://lastwordonsports.com/2017/05/07/henri-jokiharju-scouting-report-2017-nhl-draft-38/

Quote

Jokiharju is aggressive physically despite his small frame. He battles hard in the corners and in front of the net, and is also willing throw big hits. However, he really needs to bulk up if he is going to play with this same physically aggressive style at the next level.

 

[SwampD]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

Awesome.

 

 

 

That Dahlin clip reminded me what I prize most in a player.

Hands.

Speed and size are useless without good hands.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Depends on the player.  And if my team were predominantly made up with 1 type, would probably go for the other one all things overall being equal.

And I'm very pleased with them getting Jokiharju.  But stating he may have some issues due to his size isn't dissing him.  Quenneville had no issues with his size as he brought enough other things that he overcame those issues in his eyes.  Hopefully that holds here.

And being able to remove a screen is still a large part of the game.  (Especially nowadays when guys can't just crosscheck the heck out of their opponents (Bruins getting to do it being the exception that proves the rule ? ).)

I just don't understand how a 6' 195lb defender has a "size" issue. 

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

That Dahlin clip reminded me what I prize most in a player.

Hands.

Speed and size are useless without good hands.

Looks at zemgus... nods agreement. 

[Taro T]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

I just don't understand how a 6' 195lb defender has a "size" issue. 

Maybe he won't.  But over a 7 game series getting slammed into the boards continually by a heavy team & busting his butt trying to move those same behemoths away from the net front, he just might.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Maybe he won't.  But over a 7 game series getting slammed into the boards continually by a heavy team & busting his butt trying to move those same behemoths away from the net front, he just might.

Depends on how the team plays. If he is doing his job right he won't be getting slammed into the boards. Nid Lidstrom was 6'1" and perfectly effective in the modern NHL.  I just don't think 6' or 6'1" is small. Most forwards are that size.