Where Does Risto End Up?

[WildCard]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

Yeah. In my opinion none of those three choices are realistic landing places for Risto once you start putting any thought into it.

My vote was Calgary

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

In this example I agree with taking the winger, but not for the reason you state - nobody should ever assume that until they see it happening

The only center we've been correct about this with in my entire fanhood was a guy that many people called borderline generational and first overall in any draft since Crosby, and even he has disappointed those expectations

Who are you referring to here? Lost me. 

6 hours ago, OhMyDahlin said:

Would you give up Reinhart and Mittelstadt for Risto?

I doubt Winnipeg is this stupid.

The great thing with Tyler Johnson is he can play both.

Reinhart is better than Ehlers, and Roslovic doesn't have near the promise of Mittelstadt. 

[Randall Flagg]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Who are you referring to here? Lost me. 

Reinhart is better than Ehlers, and Roslovic doesn't have near the promise of Mittelstadt. 

We've drafted 6 centers in the first round since 2012, all in the top half, most in the top ten. This includes the one we took this past draft, the one we took three drafts ago, Eichel in 2015, Sam in 2014, and the Gs in 2012. Of those (and overall), we have one player that can be described as a "decent or better NHL center" (Eichel) so I don't like building trades off of the assumption that THIS time we definitely have a top six center of the future. It wasn't either of the Gs (I'm sure we could find some horrifying lineups from this forum in 2012-2014 that we all drooled over), it wasn't Sam, and it might not be Mitts or Cozens, so if we trade for a winger, I hope it's because we really like the winger and have plans A through Z at center, and not because "Oh casey will be fiiiine at 2C, no doubt"

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

We've drafted 6 centers in the first round since 2012, all in the top half, most in the top ten. This includes the one we took this past draft, the one we took three drafts ago, Eichel in 2015, Sam in 2014, and the Gs in 2012. Of those (and overall), we have one player that can be described as a "decent or better NHL center" (Eichel) so I don't like building trades off of the assumption that THIS time we definitely have a top six center of the future. It wasn't either of the Gs (I'm sure we could find some horrifying lineups from this forum in 2012-2014 that we all drooled over), it wasn't Sam, and it might not be Mitts or Cozens, so if we trade for a winger, I hope it's because we really like the winger and have plans A through Z at center, and not because "Oh casey will be fiiiine at 2C, no doubt"

I remember debating about whether Grigorenko, as our 1C, would provide adequate sheltering for Reinhart at our 2C position. 

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I remember debating about whether Grigorenko, as our 1C, would provide adequate sheltering for Reinhart at our 2C position. 

I vividly remember explaining to my girlfriend (who patiently waited without rolling her eyes) that Girgs and Grigs finally solved the center woes and would be integral to our first cup at last!

[Gatorman0519]

I would like to see what Krueger can do with Risto before we ship him off.

[Scottysabres]

I have heavy suspicions Edmonton and Buffalo are going to strike a deal involving multiple players, both defense and forwards. I believe if a deal can be struck Nolan Vesey will be coming over to the Amerks in the deal.

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said:

I would like to see what Krueger can do with Risto before we ship him off.

If there's a single GM out there that views Risto's value currently as what we hope Krueger might be able to rehabilitate it to, Botterill will move him. Mitigates risk. 

[Brawndo]

I really do not want my highest paid defenseman to have to be sheltered on the third pair  in an attempt to maximize his value to my team.  

Trade Him 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Which prospect’s development did we screw up more; Girgensons, Grigorenko, Ristolainen, Zadorov or Nylander?

[Weave]

8 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

The only center we've been correct about this with in my entire fanhood was a guy that many people called borderline generational and first overall in any draft since Crosby, and even he has disappointed those expectations

So very much this.  You can't assume Mitts is gonna develop into a 2C.  Well, WE can, but it would be negligent on the GM's part to make that assumption.  Get a 2C.  IF Mitts develops, we'll have the top 3C in the league.

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Which prospect’s development did we screw up more; Girgensons, Grigorenko, Ristolainen, Zadorov or Nylander?

Grigorenko.

The others are still in the NHL, but Grigorenko's departure from the NHL while the others continue to carve out a path is so very telling.

Of course, this can change as Nylander's career moves forward. I'll reserve that right to change my answer for now ?

[Weave]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Which prospect’s development did we screw up more; Girgensons, Grigorenko, Ristolainen, Zadorov or Nylander?

All the prospects.

Honestly, I think Girgs turned out about what his skill set projected to.  Same with Z.  Girgs was drafted at a position in the draft that usually ends up bottom 6.  Same relative deal with Z.  I  think Nylanders problems were his own, not the organizations.  Grigo and Risto......  there were red flags re: Grigo.  That might be who he was.  Risto?  I could see a case being made that he was simply the wrong pick at that draft position.

 

Back when Landeskog was drafted, one of the big draft prognosticators (don't remember which one) cautioned in an article to be very careful about drafting 18yr olds with a man's body.  The thought was, their early physical development allowed them to dominate in juniors, but their development was about done and they often don't have much development room to grow in the NHL.  Obviously, the alarm about Landeskog was in error, but looking back at Girgs, Zad, Kassian, Risto, they all fit the pattern.  Overwhelmed their 18 yr old competition but didn't have much more to offer as they aged into the NHL.

[WildCard]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Which prospect’s development did we screw up more; Girgensons, Grigorenko, Ristolainen, Zadorov or Nylander?

Nylander. Risto still turned out alright, the rest were/are what they are 

[TrueBlueGED]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

If there's a single GM out there that views Risto's value currently as what we hope Krueger might be able to rehabilitate it to, Botterill will move him. Mitigates risk. 

 

4 hours ago, Brawndo said:

I really do not want my highest paid defenseman to have to be sheltered on the third pair  in an attempt to maximize his value to my team.  

Trade Him 

This is exactly my thinking. Let him be somebody else's "maybe if" and "if only" and *what if we try..." and "perhaps we can..." A team shouldn't have to twist itself in a pretzel to maybe possibly make its $5.4M defenseman serviceable. 

[DarthEbriate]

5 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I vividly remember explaining to my girlfriend (who patiently waited without rolling her eyes) that Girgs and Grigs finally solved the center woes and would be integral to our first cup at last!

Memories make us rich. Grigs once broke Gretzky's points record in an EA NHL campaign season is all I'm saying.

5 hours ago, Brawndo said:

I really do not want my highest paid defenseman to have to be sheltered on the third pair  in an attempt to maximize his value to my team.  

Trade Him 

It's true. He shouldn't be on the third pair. But with Bogo and Pilut out, this could take longer to come to fruition than we hope (although I think the move happens before August 10th). We simply cannot carry this many D-men into the season, and it makes no sense to have someone on the 50-man limit being stashed in ROC and stunting the prospects' development.

JBot, you may fire when ready.

[Norcal]

I said Edmonton...I could see a package for a 2C

[GASabresIUFAN]

From looking at Capfriendly the teams that "need" Risto the most are WPG and TB.  

[Huckleberry]

8 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I vividly remember explaining to my girlfriend (who patiently waited without rolling her eyes) that Girgs and Grigs finally solved the center woes and would be integral to our first cup at last!

Man I liked Grigorenko, I even went to defend him as 3C in his last months with us.   Which I still think would have been decent for him.

[LGR4GM]

12 hours ago, WildCard said:

Nylander. Risto still turned out alright, the rest were/are what they are 

I don't think we screwed up Nylander's development. Wasn't there chatter that Nylander refused to go back to Juniors and it was AHL/NHL or Sweden?

[WildCard]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't think we screwed up Nylander's development. Wasn't there chatter that Nylander refused to go back to Juniors and it was AHL/NHL or Sweden?

I don't think any of those other guys really had a chance at being anything though

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't think we screwed up Nylander's development. Wasn't there chatter that Nylander refused to go back to Juniors and it was AHL/NHL or Sweden?

There was chatter that his Dad wanted him in the AHL.  A good GM probably should have known that from a pre draft interview.  Regardless, he should have never been in the AHL at 18.  Same for Girgensons.

2 minutes ago, WildCard said:

I don't think any of those other guys really had a chance at being anything though

I believe our putting Nylander and Grigorenko in the pro game before they were ready destroyed their futures

[WildCard]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

There was chatter that his Dad wanted him in the AHL.  A good GM probably should have known that from a pre draft interview.  Regardless, he should have never been in the AHL at 18.  Same for Girgensons.

I believe our putting Nylander and Grigorenko in the pro game before they were ready destroyed their futures

Liger's right, Nylander refused to go back to the OHL; otherwise he was going to Europe

Regardless that shouldn't ruin him. It's not like we played him in the NHL like we did Grigorenko, but even with Grigorenko he was so freaking slow I don't think it would have mattered that much; he wouldn't have bombed like he did but he wasn't going to be the 80pt center we all thought he was

[Drunkard]

15 hours ago, Brawndo said:

I really do not want my highest paid defenseman to have to be sheltered on the third pair  in an attempt to maximize his value to my team.  

Trade Him 

If he stays, he definitely won't be on the 3rd pair, no matter how many JAGs our dart throwing GM brings in. Also, there's a difference between sheltering him and just not treating him like he's Shea Weber in his prime. Giving him less than 24 minutes a game and less than 60% of his zone starts in the defensive doesn't mean he's being sheltered.

If you apply that logic to Ristolainen, then doesn't it apply to Dahlin, Montour, Bogosian, McCabe, and the rest of our defensive roster? Were they all sheltered just because they weren't saddled with predominantly difficult minutes? Because none of those players were asked to carry the water for the amount of time that he has and I think @Randall Flagg or somebody else mentioned that when Montour played the same type of minutes Ristolainen did that he got his teeth kicked in in much the same fashion. Does that mean Botterill traded Guhle and a 1st round pick for a worthless defenseman that needed to be sheltered? Or could it simply be that most defenseman who aren't Shea Weber in his prime would perform poorly when thrown into the deep end with no little to no help?

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

If he stays, he definitely won't be on the 3rd pair, no matter how many JAGs our dart throwing GM brings in. Also, there's a difference between sheltering him and just not treating him like he's Shea Weber in his prime. Giving him less than 24 minutes a game and less than 60% of his zone starts in the defensive doesn't mean he's being sheltered.

If you apply that logic to Ristolainen, then doesn't it apply to Dahlin, Montour, Bogosian, McCabe, and the rest of our defensive roster? Were they all sheltered just because they weren't saddled with predominantly difficult minutes? Because none of those players were asked to carry the water for the amount of time that he has and I think @Randall Flagg or somebody else mentioned that when Montour played the same type of minutes Ristolainen did that he got his teeth kicked in in much the same fashion. Does that mean Botterill traded Guhle and a 1st round pick for a worthless defenseman that needed to be sheltered? Or could it simply be that most defenseman who aren't Shea Weber in his prime would perform poorly when thrown into the deep end with no little to no help?

Please, name a "jag" that Botterill brought in for the right side of the defense and define how you are reaching "jag" status for that player. 

Edited July 11, 2019 by LGR4GM