Where Does Risto End Up?

[GASabresIUFAN]

32 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Erod is superior to Sheary. I'd also waive Sobotka. He has no place on this team. 

Waiving Sobotka only clears 1.075 of his 3.5 cap hit from the books.  What a waste.  He should have been bought out and we’d have saved 2 mill this year.

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Waiving Sobotka only clears 1.075 of his 3.5 cap hit from the books.  What a waste.  He should have been bought out and we’d have saved 2 mill this year.

And would have to pay him again next year, no thanks. Waive him and he I bet money he flees for Europe and we pay nothing. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

And would have to pay him again next year, no thanks. Waive him and he I bet money he flees for Europe and we pay nothing. 

Doesn’t work that way anymore.  We’d have to lend him to Europe and we’d still only save 1.075

Keeping him and waiving him costs us $3,000,000 in salary and 2.425 in cap

Buying him out would cost us $2,000,000 in salary spread out 1 mill each for the next 2 years and cost us cap hits of 1.5 this year and 1 mill next.  This makes so much more sense the just sending him down.

Edited July 12, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[Randall Flagg]

I don't care what we do. Just make sure he doesn't step on NHL ice in our uniform this year.

[Randall Flagg]

And Sheary isn't better than ERod at hockey, or even particularly close. He has a few more goals, but when he's not scoring, he's useless on both ends of the ice. And as we slipped out of playoff contention, as dudacek pointed out recently, he bravely put up just one or two non-empty-net goals in a 44 game stretch. The extent of his contributions during that pivotal stretch of over half an NHL season can be summarized by the following video:

While Rodrigues is a legitimately good penalty killer who is always making things happen on and off the puck when he's slotted appropriately (ie not replacing Jack's spot when Jack is injured). His hockey sense as a forward is only bested by Sam Reinhart's on this team IMO. He's incredibly useful even if he never scores a point. 

[Curt]

10 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Doesn’t work that way anymore.  We’d have to lend him to Europe and we’d still only save 1.075

Keeping him and waiving him costs us $3,000,000 in salary and 2.425 in cap

Buying him out would cost us $2,000,000 in salary spread out 1 mill each for the next 2 years and cost us cap hits of 1.5 this year and 1 mill next.  This makes so much more sense the just sending him down.

If Sobotka refuses to report to Rochester, violating his contract, and instead decided to go sign somewhere in Europe, then Buffalo would be free of his contract.  $0 cap hit.

Cant say for certain if that’s what he would do, but it seems like a possibility.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, Curt said:

If Sobotka refuses to report to Rochester, violating his contract, and instead decided to go sign somewhere in Europe, then Buffalo would be free of his contract.  $0 cap hit.

Cant say for certain if that’s what he would do, but it seems like a possibility.

Not going to happen.  Why give up $3 mill to play in Europe for $500k.  

[LGR4GM]

19 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Doesn’t work that way anymore.  We’d have to lend him to Europe and we’d still only save 1.075

Keeping him and waiving him costs us $3,000,000 in salary and 2.425 in cap

Buying him out would cost us $2,000,000 in salary spread out 1 mill each for the next 2 years and cost us cap hits of 1.5 this year and 1 mill next.  This makes so much more sense the just sending him down.

Again, I'm buying out a player that I can just get completely rid of after this season. It makes no sense to buy him out when this year we don't have cap issues. I would rather have 0 against the cap next year than anything from Sobotka. 

7 minutes ago, Curt said:

If Sobotka refuses to report to Rochester, violating his contract, and instead decided to go sign somewhere in Europe, then Buffalo would be free of his contract.  $0 cap hit.

Cant say for certain if that’s what he would do, but it seems like a possibility.

Which was what I was implying 

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

And Sheary isn't better than ERod at hockey, or even particularly close. He has a few more goals, but when he's not scoring, he's useless on both ends of the ice. And as we slipped out of playoff contention, as dudacek pointed out recently, he bravely put up just one or two non-empty-net goals in a 44 game stretch. The extent of his contributions during that pivotal stretch of over half an NHL season can be summarized by the following video:

While Rodrigues is a legitimately good penalty killer who is always making things happen on and off the puck when he's slotted appropriately (ie not replacing Jack's spot when Jack is injured). His hockey sense as a forward is only bested by Sam Reinhart's on this team IMO. He's incredibly useful even if he never scores a point. 

ERod loses a lot of puck battles. Sheary loses them all.

And I liked yesterday’s video a heckuva lot more than this one.

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by dudacek

[Curt]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Not going to happen.  Why give up $3 mill to play in Europe for $500k.  

Because it probably wouldn’t be a $500K contract.  He could probably get something like $2M in the KHL.  The better guys over there make good money.  I’m guessing a bit on the figure of course, but he was making $3M when he left the KHL.

[LGR4GM]

8 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

And Sheary isn't better than ERod at hockey, or even particularly close. He has a few more goals, but when he's not scoring, he's useless on both ends of the ice. And as we slipped out of playoff contention, as dudacek pointed out recently, he bravely put up just one or two non-empty-net goals in a 44 game stretch. The extent of his contributions during that pivotal stretch of over half an NHL season can be summarized by the following video:

While Rodrigues is a legitimately good penalty killer who is always making things happen on and off the puck when he's slotted appropriately (ie not replacing Jack's spot when Jack is injured). His hockey sense as a forward is only bested by Sam Reinhart's on this team IMO. He's incredibly useful even if he never scores a point. 

Thank you

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

ERod loses a lot of puck battles. Sheary loses them all.

Yeah, the main argument against Evan appears to be his physical weakness (with good reason). But Sheary is ALSO very weak! 

[nfreeman]

15 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

And Sheary isn't better than ERod at hockey, or even particularly close. He has a few more goals, but when he's not scoring, he's useless on both ends of the ice. And as we slipped out of playoff contention, as dudacek pointed out recently, he bravely put up just one or two non-empty-net goals in a 44 game stretch. The extent of his contributions during that pivotal stretch of over half an NHL season can be summarized by the following video:

While Rodrigues is a legitimately good penalty killer who is always making things happen on and off the puck when he's slotted appropriately (ie not replacing Jack's spot when Jack is injured). His hockey sense as a forward is only bested by Sam Reinhart's on this team IMO. He's incredibly useful even if he never scores a point. 

I know these videos are just collections of snippets that can be put together to make pretty much any point that anyone wants to make -- but dear me I love them.

And these really do encapsulate Sheary's "move feet quickly, get possession and then weakly lose the puck" game to a T.

 

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

ERod loses a lot of puck battles. Sheary loses them all.

 

And yet some people are sure that Sheary is better than Vesey.

[Randall Flagg]

9 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I know these videos are just collections of snippets that can be put together to make pretty much any point that anyone wants to make -- but dear me I love them.

 

This is why hockey is so hard - and thus fun - to try and figure out. I wish I had a better way to argue than these (I coulda started pulling stats out too but you can make just as many arguments agains tthose) but it's better than nothing I guess!

[TrueBlueGED]

28 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I know these videos are just collections of snippets that can be put together to make pretty much any point that anyone wants to make -- but dear me I love them.

And these really do encapsulate Sheary's "move feet quickly, get possession and then weakly lose the puck" game to a T.

 

 

And yet some people are sure that Sheary is better than Vesey.

Well, that's because all available evidence says he is.

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Well, that's because all available evidence says he is.

Is Vesey as weak on the puck as Sheary? Because this is what drives me crazy about Sheary.

[TrueBlueGED]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Is Vesey as weak on the puck as Sheary? Because this is what drives me crazy about Sheary.

I haven't watched enough to know, but I've read enough to be comfortable that any strength on the puck he may have over Sheary is completely washed out by his lack of interest involving anything resembling defense. Besides, if he's stronger on the puck but still has worse outcomes across the board, does it really matter?

[GASabresIUFAN]

52 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Again, I'm buying out a player that I can just get completely rid of after this season. It makes no sense to buy him out when this year we don't have cap issues. I would rather have 0 against the cap next year than anything from Sobotka. 

Which was what I was implying 

We are at the cap right now with the new deals for our 3 main RFAs, and we have 25 mill of salary coming off the books after the season.

 It’s fantasy to hope he walks like Berglund did.  It’s also fantasy that a guy who just got cut from the NHL because he can longer cut it is instantly going get a good $ deal in the KHL regardless of what he was paid 5 years ago.

the extra $1 mill in cap space this year means more now then the loss of $1 in cap for next year.

Also Rochester has a full roster without us sending anyone down but prospects.  Wilson, Hunwick, Sobotka, Larsson, and Girgensons seem easy just to send down if they don’t make he cut out of camp, but it just isn’t that easy.  Some of these guys need to be removed by other means.  Sobotka is our only contract eligible to be bought out in the arbitration buyout period.

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

I haven't watched enough to know, but I've read enough to be comfortable that any strength on the puck he may have over Sheary is completely washed out by his lack of interest involving anything resembling defense. Besides, if he's stronger on the puck but still has worse outcomes across the board, does it really matter?

Not to team results, maybe to my frustration level watching, although lackadaisical effort will make me throw things at the TV just as much.

Were Vesey’s charts as a middle-sixer in New York as bad as Sheary’s in Buffalo? And if I find out Sheary had good charts in Buffalo, it will not help my affection for charts.

Edited July 12, 2019 by dudacek

[nfreeman]

7 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

I haven't watched enough to know, but I've read enough to be comfortable that any strength on the puck he may have over Sheary is completely washed out by his lack of interest involving anything resembling defense. Besides, if he's stronger on the puck but still has worse outcomes across the board, does it really matter?

And this is what we call "assuming away the problem."

[LGR4GM]

19 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

We are at the cap right now with the new deals for our 3 main RFAs, and we have 25 mill of salary coming off the books after the season.

 It’s fantasy to hope he walks like Berglund did.  It’s also fantasy that a guy who just got cut from the NHL because he can longer cut it is instantly going get a good $ deal in the KHL regardless of what he was paid 5 years ago.

the extra $1 mill in cap space this year means more now then the loss of $1 in cap for next year.

Also Rochester has a full roster without us sending anyone down but prospects.  Wilson, Hunwick, Sobotka, Larsson, and Girgensons seem easy just to send down if they don’t make he cut out of camp, but it just isn’t that easy.  Some of these guys need to be removed by other means.  Sobotka is our only contract eligible to be bought out in the arbitration buyout period.

I disagree and to continue this is pointless. Botterill said he's not buying him out so there's nothing to discuss. If he does, we can debate its merits. 

I've stated my side though as I see it. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by LGR4GM

[TrueBlueGED]

Just now, dudacek said:

Not to team results, maybe to my frustration level watching, although lackadaisical effort will make throw things at the TV just as much.

Were Vesey’s charts as a middle-sixer in New York as bad as Sheary’s in Buffalo? And if I find out Sheary had good charts in Buffalo, it will not help my affection for charts.

Neither were good last year, that's for sure. I put the most weight on xG because of its predictive value, which is where my clear judgment in favor of Sheary comes from. For whatever it's worth, everything I've read about Vesey's defensive play qualitatively backs up his abominable defensive xG in the chart.

[TrueBlueGED]

25 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

And this is what we call "assuming away the problem."

Would you be happier if I said Vesey's offensive contributions are completely washed away by his horrible defensive play?

[darksabre]

Just now, TrueBlueGED said:

Would you be happier if I said Vesey's offensive contributions are completely washed away by his horrible defensive play?

Like Risto? 

[nfreeman]

7 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Neither were good last year, that's for sure. I put the most weight on xG because of its predictive value, which is where my clear judgment in favor of Sheary comes from. For whatever it's worth, everything I've read about Vesey's defensive play qualitatively backs up his abominable defensive xG in the chart.

 

5 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Would you be happier if I said Vesey's offensive contributions are completely washed away by his horrible defensive play?

I suppose I'd be happier if your statement didn't so broadly and with such certitude state that a guy who stunk for the Sabres last year was "across the board" better than a guy who is bigger, plays a tougher game and scored more goals -- especially if the difference is defensive play, and both guys played for terrible defensive teams, and Sheary's performance in your most important stat was kinda lousy, albeit less lousy than Vesey's.