Sabres Trade Alex Nylander to Chicago for D Man Henri Jokiharju

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I wanna call this post out specifically for the trope it is using. Just because a player is bad doesn't mean everyone values them the same. It's basic logic. 

I think I understand this, and, assuming I do, agree very much with it.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

As was Risto

Ristolainen spent 1/2 a season in Ra-cha-cha.  Dahlin was NEVER going to see the AHL.

There's a reason Eichel & Dahlin were never listed as "prospects."

[Curt]

2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Every year we have to run some player out of town. I'm sick of it. I remember Andreychuck getting run out of here, too soft, ya know. Turgeon was a TinMan, or something, ROR for some reason, Tyler Myers, now Risto. 

Hes our only physical d-man, he isn't really injured much, decent salary for three years and is offensively gifted. Just admit he's a good player and it will be a loss if we lose him. I kind of doubt many professional hockey people see Risto as a total waste of a player 

I’m definitely  not insistent that he needs to be traded.  However, it seems to me that the likelihood that he is traded is high.  This is based upon rumors that he is being shopped and the fact that the team has brought in 3 NHL quality RD (“replacements”) in the past 6 months.  This is the source of much of the incessant interest and speculation about trading Risto.  He has always had his detractors, but it’s reached a fever pitch because a trade looks to be imminent.

I don’t think it’s very productive or interesting to just go back in forth with “Risto sux, get rid of him”, “No, he is good, the team would miss him” type of discussions.  I would rather see his actual skill set discussed with more nuance than that.  I think we are capable of it as a group.  

Personally, I see Risto as a #4/#5 type of guy at 5 on 5.  He could probably do ok paired with a better player on a 2nd pair, and if you can use him in a somewhat sheltered role, I think the results would be good.  I think that he can be used heavily on both the PP and PK though and do well there.  

He has the offensive skills in the OZone to really help a PP and I think his size, length, and strength can help a PK in front of the net and in the corners.  I think these qualities are his strengths as a player.

I think his weaknesses as a player are mostly when he has the puck on his stick in the defensive and neutral zone.  I think he does a bad job of making passes to move the puck out of the Dzone with possession, too often defaulting to just throwing it off the glass and out.  I also feel like he could take advantage of open ice more often to skate the puck up into the neutral zone and put more pressure on the opponents.

In a nutshell, I see a player who is pretty good at the point once the puck is in the offensive zone and is pretty good at defending with his size low in the Dzone, but who struggles to actually get the puck out of the Dzone and into the Ozone.  He is definitely a player who has uses, but one who also has definite flaws.  Someone who has a place in the NHL but not someone who you should be considering a “core” piece of someone to really build around.

I don’t think Buffalo would miss him much on the PP or 5 on 5, as I feel that other players have been brought in who can mostly replace what he does there.  I think they may miss him on the PK and in certain 5 on 5 matchups where he can really use his physicality.  If there are other GM’s out there who see in Risto someone they want to build around, I think there could be trade possibilities that are good for Buffalo.

Edit: Sorry for the novel, but I think that’s it’s necessary to get a little deeper into things in order to have a real discussion.  Also, I’m going to repost this in the Risto thread, anyone who wants to discuss this in more detail can head over there.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Curt

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Every year we have to run some player out of town. I'm sick of it. I remember Andreychuck getting run out of here, too soft, ya know. Turgeon was a TinMan, or something, ROR for some reason, Tyler Myers, now Risto. 

Hes our only physical d-man, he isn't really injured much, decent salary for three years and is offensively gifted. Just admit he's a good player and it will be a loss if we lose him. I kind of doubt many professional hockey people see Risto as a total waste of a player 

I don't follow analytics...I never coached hockey....I can't break down film and see anything of much value...when I watch the game, I'm just following the puck 90% of the time....so obviously I'm not the best person to know a players true value........but what I do know with Risto is this: 

-too many times last year (and the year or two before) I see the Sabres have a goal scored against them, and Risto has his back (or side) turned to the play...or seems to be skating away from the goal scorer or is just looking at the play while not moving.   Now, is some of that schematic where another player made a mistake?  Maybe, but it happens WAY too much to Risto compared to other Sabres D-men for me to say he is a great...or even good D-man who is just unlucky.

I don't think he is a truly awful player...but I think he is someone that has good skills and gets over-rated by a lot of people because of his 'athletic skills' and not by his actual play.

[Taro T]

24 minutes ago, Curt said:

I’m definitely  not insistent that he needs to be traded.  However, it seems to me that the likelihood that he is traded is high.  This is based upon rumors that he is being shopped and the fact that the team has brought in 3 NHL quality RD (“replacements”) in the past 6 months.  This is the source of much of the incessant interest and speculation about trading Risto.  He has always had his detractors, but it’s reached a fever pitch because a trade looks to be imminent.

I don’t think it’s very productive or interesting to just go back in forth with “Risto sux, get rid of him”, “No, he is good, the team would miss him” type of discussions.  I would rather see his actual skill set discussed with more nuance than that.  I think we are capable of it as a group.  

Personally, I see Risto as a #4/#5 type of guy at 5 on 5.  He could probably do ok paired with a better player on a 2nd pair, and if you can use him in a somewhat sheltered role, I think the results would be good.  I think that he can be used heavily on both the PP and PK though and do well there.  

He has the offensive skills in the OZone to really help a PP and I think his size, length, and strength can help a PK in front of the net and in the corners.  I think these qualities are his strengths as a player.

I think his weaknesses as a player are mostly when he has the puck on his stick in the defensive and neutral zone.  I think he does a bad job of making passes to move the puck out of the Dzone with possession, too often defaulting to just throwing it off the glass and out.  I also feel like he could take advantage of open ice more often to skate the puck up into the neutral zone and put more pressure on the opponents.

In a nutshell, I see a player who is pretty good at the point once the puck is in the offensive zone and is pretty good at defending with his size low in the Dzone, but who struggles to actually get the puck out of the Dzone and into the Ozone.  He is definitely a player who has uses, but one who also has definite flaws.  Someone who has a place in the NHL but not someone who you should be considering a “core” piece of someone to really build around.

I don’t think Buffalo would miss him much on the PP or 5 on 5, as I feel that other players have been brought in who can mostly replace what he does there.  I think they may miss him on the PK and in certain 5 on 5 matchups where he can really use his physicality.  If there are other GM’s out there who see in Risto someone they want to build around, I think there could be trade possibilities that are good for Buffalo.

Edit: Sorry for the novel, but I think that’s it’s necessary to get a little deeper into things in order to have a real discussion.  Also, I’m going to repost this in the Risto thread, anyone who wants to discuss this in more detail can head over there.

IMHO a bigger issue for him is (similarly to Eichel) he can get lost on who to defend when the other team has a strong cycle working.  He finds himself getting lured towards the boards or the goal line & can't help with controlling the rebound.  Though due to his speed is oftentimes able to recover in time to cross check the goal scorer right after the red light goes on.

And that is a big part of why, again IMHO, he would be better suited on the 2nd pairing rather than his perpetual 1st pairing usage.  The 2nd and 3rd lines don't typically cycle as well, and he doesn't always get lost in 1.  (But when he does, the scoring chance is glorious.)

Not finding the right outlet pass is also an issue, but not as big of one.

And I'm on record as having wanted to keep him (on the 2nd pairing) but really don't see that happening with the glut of RHD & the likelihood that he could be a major part of the trade for the needed 2C.

[dudacek]

I’m curious what Risto’s charts looked like during the first half of the year.

That inferior version of Corsi called +/- showed he went on a 30-game stint between January 12 and March 23 where he was a stunning -33. That roughly coincides with when my eye test said the spirit left Risto, where falling out of the playoffs after the fall tease piled on to five years of losing and finally broke him worse than it broke Sabrespace.

That stint is what is fresh in your minds; that is the player many of you want gone.

The other 58 games, where he put up 31 points and a -8: That is the flawed but still very competitive, high-risk, high-reward player he really is and will be when he is traded. 

Trade him to Tampa where the dark cloud is lifted and they will use him to his strengths with Hedman on the offensive pair while McDonough and Cernak handle the tough stuff and it will be O’Reilly in St. Louis all over again.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by dudacek

[Thorner]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No he's actually awful defensively. 

And the highest rated D prospect since ever was Dahlin. Jokiharju is solid defensively, something Risto after 6 seasons and 400 games, hasn't shown. 

FTFY

3 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Every year we have to run some player out of town. I'm sick of it. I remember Andreychuck getting run out of here, too soft, ya know. Turgeon was a TinMan, or something, ROR for some reason, Tyler Myers, now Risto. 

Hes our only physical d-man, he isn't really injured much, decent salary for three years and is offensively gifted. Just admit he's a good player and it will be a loss if we lose him. I kind of doubt many professional hockey people see Risto as a total waste of a player 

WE don't run anyone out of town. GMs make trades.

Also, LaFontaine was better than Turgeon and Myers isn't very good. We wont both those trades. If the GM can win a Risto deal, I am all for it. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Ristolainen spent 1/2 a season in Ra-cha-cha.  Dahlin was NEVER going to see the AHL.

There's a reason Eichel & Dahlin were never listed as "prospects."

Everyone who is ever drafted is a prospect. Crosby was a prospect his draft year, the day he was drafted, and every month before he played his first NHL game. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Thorny

[...]

22 minutes ago, Thorny said:

WE don't run anyone out of town. GMs make trades.

Also, LaFontaine was better than Turgeon and Myers isn't very good. We wont both those trades. If the GM can win a Risto deal, I am all for it. 

Right! If only we had that power.

[LGR4GM]

15 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m curious what Risto’s charts looked like during the first half of the year.

That inferior version of Corsi called +/- showed he went on a 30-game stint between January 12 and March 23 where he was a stunning -33. That roughly coincides with when my eye test said the spirit left Risto, where falling out of the playoffs after the fall tease piled on to five years of losing and finally broke him worse than it broke Sabrespace.

That stint is what is fresh in your minds; that is the player many of you want gone.

The other 58 games, where he put up 31 points and a -8: That is the flawed but still very competitive, high-risk, high-reward player he really is and will be when he is traded. 

Trade him to Tampa where the dark cloud is lifted and they will use him to his strengths with Hedman on the offensive pair while McDonough and Cernak handle the tough stuff and it will be O’Reilly in St. Louis all over again.

 

 

You know, I really found this post interesting... and then there was the fear mongering ROR line. Let's set the record straight. Ror was good in buffalo. He was very good. He didn't suddenly become good when he went st Louis. The trade was bad because he was good. He had a career year sure but the underlying player was always there. It's not a logical comparison and it's just fear mongering. 

Ristolainen is mediocre. He'll still be mediocre when he goes to tampa or Winnipeg. You forecheck him and he either coughs the puck up or dumps it. He doesn't effectively use his teammates. He makes poor decisions. He's a 4th defender and honestly maybe a 5th. Without his #1 pp time you're gonna lose probably 10 assists. So how valuable is a 5g, 25a defender with large defensive flaws?

We don't have to trade him. I'm fine with him staying but he's the only obvious piece that could improve the top 6. 

[dudacek]

25 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You know, I really found this post interesting... and then there was the fear mongering ROR line. Let's set the record straight. Ror was good in buffalo. He was very good. He didn't suddenly become good when he went st Louis. The trade was bad because he was good. He had a career year sure but the underlying player was always there. 

We don't have to trade (Risto) I'm fine with him staying but he's the only obvious piece that could improve the top 6. 

Believe it or not, I agree with this.

I also think Risto is better than you do (a 2/3, not a 4/5), but I generally share your criticisms of his game.

I also think that if we trade him to Tampa he, like ROR, will have a career year on a very successful team.And if the return isn’t doing similar things in Buffalo, people will be melting down, just like O’Reilly all over again.

[LGR4GM]

39 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Believe it or not, I agree with this.

I also think Risto is better than you do (a 2/3, not a 4/5), but I generally share your criticisms of his game.

I also think that if we trade him to Tampa he, like ROR, will have a career year on a very successful team.And if the return isn’t doing similar things in Buffalo, people will be melting down, just like O’Reilly all over again.

And I honestly liked everything else in your post. Good thoughts on risto

[WildCard]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Believe it or not, I agree with this.

I also think Risto is better than you do (a 2/3, not a 4/5), but I generally share your criticisms of his game.

I also think that if we trade him to Tampa he, like ROR, will have a career year on a very successful team.And if the return isn’t doing similar things in Buffalo, people will be melting down, just like O’Reilly all over again.

The good news is unlike losing O'Reilly we aren't creating a gaping hole this time when we do trade Ristolainen. Montour, Miller, Joki...if one thing can be said about Botterill it's that he learns from his mistakes, or at least that one

Edited July 17, 2019 by WildCard

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, WildCard said:

The good news is unlike losing O'Reilly we aren't creating a gaping hole this time when we do trade Ristolainen. Montour, Miller, Joki...if one thing can be said about Botterill it's that he learns from his mistakes, or at least that one

Yep - removing ROR turned the center spine behind Jack into the worst in the league. Trading Risto won't do the same for our RHD, and even if it did, with Dahlin on the other side it wouldn't be as noticeable. 

And I'd put a lot of money on the player we get in return for Risto being a better NHLer than any single piece we got for ROR was or will be for a couple of seasons

[dudacek]

Interesting nugget about Jokiharju in the Athletic today:

“Jokiharju did struggle in his first NHL season. By both GSVA and WAR he was a sub-replacement level player.”

Will you #fancystats guys get your stories straight?

[Weave]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Interesting nugget about Jokiharju in the Athletic today:

“Jokiharju did struggle in his first NHL season. By both GSVA and WAR he was a sub-replacement level player.”

Will you #fancystats guys get your stories straight?

Holy buzzkill, Batman!

Edited July 19, 2019 by Weave

[kas23]

7 hours ago, Weave said:

Holy buzzkill, Batman!

I think it’s best to temper expectations. The guy was demoted last year to the AHL, but somehow we’ve suddenly made him into a top-4 defensemen. 

[In The Buff]

2 hours ago, kas23 said:

I think it’s best to temper expectations. The guy was demoted last year to the AHL, but somehow we’ve suddenly made him into a top-4 defensemen. 

We haven't made him to be one. It's that he was one, prior to the coaching change in Chicago where Coach Q left & Colliton came in.

He was playing 20-25 minutes a night with Duncan Keith & then almost immediately after the coaching change had his ice time diminish.

So 1 coach felt he was good enough to play with Keith, the other didnt. One is Joel Quenneville, the other Jeremy Colliton.

Who should we believe had a better handle on who Jokiharju was as a player? Not surprising that lots of fans are hoping Coach Q's evaluation was the right one, especially given his experience & success as a head coach.

But fans here aren't just making him out to be a top 4 dman from thin air. There is good reason to hope he can be that in the future, as always time will tell.

Edited July 20, 2019 by MillerVaive

[nfreeman]

36 minutes ago, MillerVaive said:

We haven't made him to be one. It's that he was one, prior to the coaching change in Chicago where Coach Q left & Colliton came in.

He was playing 20-25 minutes a night with Duncan Keith & then almost immediately after the coaching change had his ice time diminish.

So 1 coach felt he was good enough to play with Keith, the other didnt. One is Joel Quenneville, the other Jeremy Colliton.

Who should we believe had a better handle on who Jokiharju was as a player? Not surprising that lots of fans are hoping Coach Q's evaluation was the right one, especially given his experience & success as a head coach.

But fans here aren't just making him out to be a top 4 dman from thin air. There is good reason to hope he can be that in the future, as always time will tell.

All this, plus IIRC he crushed it for Finland at the World Juniors, innit?

[Curt]

9 hours ago, nfreeman said:

All this, plus IIRC he crushed it for Finland at the World Juniors, innit?

Crushed it for Finland at the World Juniors two years in a row, then did well for Finland at the World Championships where they also won Gold. (that’s the men’s one with lots of actual NHL players)

[French Collection]

12 minutes ago, Curt said:

Crushed it for Finland at the World Juniors two years in a row, then did well for Finland at the World Championships where they also won Gold. (that’s the men’s one with lots of actual NHL players)

Yeah, that's where I remember seeing him and he did well. I didn't see him play for the Hawks but I would trust Q's judgment.

He is still young for a D and any shortcomings can be worked on. I am hopeful he makes the team out of camp and settles into a top four role by mid season. He doesn't need to be put on waivers, so he may be sent down while our deep RD situation gets sorted out. Rochester D will be in good shape if they don't move out any D.

[kas23]

10 hours ago, MillerVaive said:

We haven't made him to be one. It's that he was one, prior to the coaching change in Chicago where Coach Q left & Colliton came in.

He was playing 20-25 minutes a night with Duncan Keith & then almost immediately after the coaching change had his ice time diminish.

So 1 coach felt he was good enough to play with Keith, the other didnt. One is Joel Quenneville, the other Jeremy Colliton.

Who should we believe had a better handle on who Jokiharju was as a player? Not surprising that lots of fans are hoping Coach Q's evaluation was the right one, especially given his experience & success as a head coach.

But fans here aren't just making him out to be a top 4 dman from thin air. There is good reason to hope he can be that in the future, as always time will tell.

I don’t judge a player based on how much his former coach liked him. If he loved him so much, he would’ve traded for him. I’m sure Florida has a Nylander equivalent. 

 

I also think great players catch on no matter their coach. That is, if a player is good, they are good. Maybe this is a bad comparison, but the younger Rhino stayed on no matter how many coaches he had. He continued to improve. 

 

Its not not that I think he’s a poor prospect or will never be a top-4 defender. It’s just that I won’t be surprised if he starts the season on the Amerks to give him more playing time. I also don’t think he’s a reason we can go out and trade Risto now, nor do I think Miller is (another player who was demoted to the 5/6 pairing by a very good coach). 

Edited July 20, 2019 by kas23

[inkman]

So there was this:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/blackhawks/ct-blackhawks-alex-nylander-mackenzie-entwistle-20190717-tv54jfi2unhppdlje7ifqdaf7q-story.html

Then this:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/blackhawks/2019/7/19/20701078/blackhawks-development-camp-scrimmage-adam-boqvist-alex-nylander-dach-antti-saarela-josiah-slavin

Good riddance. 

[MDFan]

4 hours ago, inkman said:

So there was this:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/blackhawks/ct-blackhawks-alex-nylander-mackenzie-entwistle-20190717-tv54jfi2unhppdlje7ifqdaf7q-story.html

Then this:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/blackhawks/2019/7/19/20701078/blackhawks-development-camp-scrimmage-adam-boqvist-alex-nylander-dach-antti-saarela-josiah-slavin

Good riddance. 

No doubt Alex will have an excuse ready.  Glad to be rid of the drama.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

This is turning into a real hockey trade

Nylander 5gm 2g 2a 4pts +1 He is skating 11 minutes a game.  
 

Jokiharju 9gm 0g 3a +4 skating 16:30 per night.