Sabres Trade Alex Nylander to Chicago for D Man Henri Jokiharju

[bob_sauve28]

Just now, TrueBlueGED said:

Short version, in English: Triumph blames Mittelstadt's performance on everyone but Mittelstadt. I think he stunk last year in his own right. 

12 goals for a teen, not to bad to me 

[...]

1 minute ago, bob_sauve28 said:

12 goals for a teen, not to bad to me 

If he were a 4C.

[Cascade Youth]

6 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Short version, in English: Triumph blames Mittelstadt's performance on everyone but Mittelstadt. I think he stunk last year in his own right. 

He plays like someone who can’t complete a pull-up.  It’s obvious.  He is weak on the puck.

[...]

5 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

He plays like someone who can’t complete a pull-up.  It’s obvious.  He is weak on the puck.

FIRE BOTTERILL!!

[That Aud Smell]

19 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Short version, in English: Triumph blames Mittelstadt's performance on everyone but Mittelstadt. I think he stunk last year in his own right. 

yeah. well, it's, like, the collinearity, man.

[Stoner]

@New Scotland (NS) are you thinking what I'm thinking? (If so, I will be freaked out.)

 

 

[Huckleberry]

25 minutes ago, ... said:

If he were a 4C.

Some of you really overrate how much a 4C should score. 

[Curt]

32 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

12 goals for a teen, not to bad to me 

He had only 15 points at even strength.  Less than Girgensons or Okposo.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Curt

[woods-racer]

29 minutes ago, ... said:

FIRE BOTTERILL!!

Makes me laugh every time!

 

Thanks Ho for starting the whole thing!

[LGR4GM]

I've come around on Mitrs. His numbers were what I expected but his underlying metrics are awful. He needs a big push this year or we're in trouble with him. You can't be a tire fire and get caved in like that and be a useful NHL player 

[...]

11 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

Makes me laugh every time!

 

Thanks Ho for starting the whole thing!

With all due respect to @Ho-Chi-Sock, that meme goes waaaayyyy back.

[shrader]

48 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

@New Scotland (NS) are you thinking what I'm thinking? (If so, I will be freaked out.)

 

 

Are you asking if he thinks Kim Pegula made the trade?

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, woods-racer said:

So in a nut shell. 

This past year the Sabres where a mix of players ( predominately the middle six) that had the worst possible impact on each other when on the same line.

Even scuffling them just mixed the bad mix for the same results. The bad mix being TT and Sobs. No matter where they where in the line up they drug down their line mates.

 

So the hope is by adding even just 2 players with *average* possession and CF% numbers will greatly elevate the middle six exponentially?

Is my simple assumption of these stats an over-simplification?

 

So my extraordinarily analytics-free observation that replacing Sobotka and Thompson with Johansson and Vesey might improve the team even if Vesey sucks may actually be supported by analytics? 

I’m logging off to smile smugly for the next three hours while @Randall Flagg prepares an 11-page retort that only @TrueBlueGED will understand but will crush my argument nonetheless. ?

Edited July 10, 2019 by dudacek

[WildCard]

52 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I've come around on Mitrs. His numbers were what I expected but his underlying metrics are awful. He needs a big push this year or we're in trouble with him. You can't be a tire fire and get caved in like that and be a useful NHL player 

Mean he was a college rookie, I'm not worried

[Zamboni]

1 minute ago, WildCard said:

Mean he was a college rookie, I'm not worried

My thoughts exactly. I’m sooo not worried about Mitts. Kid has too much talent to not develop and be a solid middle 6 contributor for years. Hopefully top 6.

[Randall Flagg]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

So my extraordinarily analytics-free observation that replacing Sobotka and Thompson with Johansson and Vesey might improve the team even if Vesey sucks may actually be supported by analytics? 

I’m logging off to smile smugly for the next three hours while @Randall Flagg prepares an 11-page retort that only @TrueBlueGED will understand but will crush my argument nonetheless. ?

That would definitely improve the team! Johansson is by far the best player of the bunch, and Vesey is likely the second-best. Depends on Thompson's progression though. Safe to say Vlad is the worst of the four.

[LTS]

5 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I think I need to take a step back here. 

I treat all skaters in an NHL sweater as pieces that directly affect the ultimate thing that matters more than anything else, certainly to me - NHL wins. Because prospect or vet, their successes and failures explicitly do this (affect the NHL game they're playing in) in the here and now, equally to each other. I don't change verbiage depending on the nature of the player when I'm trying to describe what is happening on the ice in relation to tonight's NHL game and this NHL season, because it serves no purpose except to delineate how we might proceed with said player going forward, which usually has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

This is different from saying that there might be a purpose to letting a player struggle for development.

Which is different still from saying that there are multiple reasons NHL organizations do the things they do.

And should certainly never imply that every choice the Cleveland Browns of the NHL make is correct - as the player submarines his NHL team while having his confidence eroded.  

These guys can be devastating on a team that knows how to use off-puck rovers-of-sorts. 

You know, I like to read what you have to say, right until you persist with the damn Cleveland Browns moniker and I just tune you out.  Oh well, that's on me I suppose. I understand what you are saying and your desire to evaluate a certain way.

5 hours ago, ... said:

This logic is confusing.  Whatever the Sabres "do" is all geared toward winning.   The goal is to win a Stanley Cup.  Every decision is made with this as the ultimate goal.  Therefore every analysis of whatever the team does is in context of achieving the ultimate goal (winning a Cup), no matter how far off that might be.  

The logic is confusing in what way?  The discussion at hand was evaluating against winning NOW versus development for winning LATER.  They are fundamentally different. A player may be used in a situation or a team may be built in a certain way that does not support winning NOW but, in the eyes of those creating the product, supports winning LATER.

As such, saying a player sucks is relevant to their ability to win NOW (which is what I believe RF is saying above) but saying he sucks can be abrasive when you factor in that he's being put in a position to suck because that's better for the team's chances to win LATER.  Sometimes a player is kept in a position because they are not important and are merely serving as a placeholder for a younger player who COULD help the team win NOW, but by keeping them in another role, it helps the team win more LATER.

5 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

But the problem with this view is it assumes we know what the Sabres are trying to do in each instance. We don't. 

The problem with any view, then, is that we don't know what they are trying to do.  But Botterill has stated he's about building a team for sustained success, which would support making moves with longer term goals (albeit hoping for shorter term success).

[Randall Flagg]

3 minutes ago, LTS said:

You know, I like to read what you have to say, right until you persist with the damn Cleveland Browns moniker and I just tune you out.  Oh well, that's on me I suppose. I understand what you are saying and your desire to evaluate a certain way.

What bugs you about it? And hey, one offseason transformed the outlook of the Browns. We could be one move away from being the same way.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Kruppstahl]

I don't know.  It's like Botterill is stockpiling right shooting D-men as they can be a trade commodity in the league.

I don't know if he is acquiring these guys as currency in future deals or if he actually wants to keep Jokiharju.

 

 

 

 

[Scottysabres]

12 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

I don't know.  It's like Botterill is stockpiling right shooting D-men as they can be a trade commodity in the league.

I don't know if he is acquiring these guys as currency in future deals or if he actually wants to keep Jokiharju.

 

 

 

 

Friends with Luuksenan? and UPK, Finnish RHD, 20 yrs old, showed sound D play with some offensive pitch in, PMD...…………...

i'd say we are keeping this guy, to see what he develops in to in any event. 2, maybe 3 years?

I know what your saying though, Our current RHD as far as I can tell:

Ristolainen 24 yrs old

Bogosian 28 yrs old

Montour 25 yrs old

Miller 26 yrs old 

Nelson 26 yrs old

Borgen 22 yrs old

Fitzgerald 22 yrs old

Jokiaharju 20 yrs old

That looks to me like 4 immediate NHL ready RHD's in Risto, Bogo, Monty and Miller. 2 immediate depth players with NHL games in Nelson and Joker with 2 developing D pushing hard to turn the corner either this coming season or definitely next given their age, Borgen and Fitzgerald.

It just makes so much sense with Bogo currently nursing an injury until in to October by reports combined with his 1 yr left that Risto is the key trade piece that could bring in a worthy 2c. But, who would the trade partner be and what does that 2c look like?

Just my view of the RHD situation.

And given the reports that Buffalo spoke to Gardiner's agent around July 1st?, that tells me the left side is being looked at as well.

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, SwampD said:

Because people are drooling over themselves about what a steal this trade is, while at the same time we’re being told that Nylander is the guy with more talent, he just isn’t motivated, all while we know (rumored to know) that he had been in a toxic environment that maybe he feels the organ-eye-zation knew about. Does anybody actual talk to these guys?! We know GMTM/DB didn’t.

I dream of a day when the Sabre hold on to talent instead of this addition by subtraction method of team building that hasn’t worked out so well for us.

This narrative is being pushed here a bunch but it's not a wide-spread belief out in the hockey universe at large as far as I can tell. 

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

My posts have all been present tense for a reason. Thompson is bad. He doesn't have to stay that way. I'd bet he does, but it's not a given. 

That said, young players who go on to be good usually do show signs of life in the underlying metrics before their traditional metrics and reputation catch up. 

Exactly. See, MacKinnon having positive signs in his early metrics, which panned out. Whereas Laine's suggested a monumental crash, which happened last season, and that seems more representative of his actual ability as a hockey player.

[Brawndo]

Interesting...

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I think I need to take a step back here. 

I treat all skaters in an NHL sweater as pieces that directly affect the ultimate thing that matters more than anything else, certainly to me - NHL wins. Because prospect or vet, their successes and failures explicitly do this (affect the NHL game they're playing in) in the here and now, equally to each other. I don't change verbiage depending on the nature of the player when I'm trying to describe what is happening on the ice in relation to tonight's NHL game and this NHL season, because it serves no purpose except to delineate how we might proceed with said player going forward, which usually has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

This is different from saying that there might be a purpose to letting a player struggle for development.

Which is different still from saying that there are multiple reasons NHL organizations do the things they do.

And should certainly never imply that every choice the Cleveland Browns of the NHL make is correct - as the player submarines his NHL team while having his confidence eroded.  

These guys can be devastating on a team that knows how to use off-puck rovers-of-sorts. 

???

?

8 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Interesting...

I knew him not showing up at camp this season meant something. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

 

Sorry, WildCard. I hope you're sitting down.