Sabres Trade Alex Nylander to Chicago for D Man Henri Jokiharju

[PerreaultForever]

D men take longer to develop (usually) so even if you view this as a swap of disappointments (which I don't think you can) JBot wins this trade imo. 

[That Aud Smell]

6 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

Nylander's comments (which really aren't all that bad) aren't the first time a player has given a vibe that things are 'off' in a way, here. The same hint of a whiff of a smell was there with both ROR and Berglund. Nobody outright saying "clown organization," of course.

Like @dudacek said: This is almost entirely about being a team that sucks.

I don’t see a lot of common threads between ROR, Berglund, and Nylander. Also, that’s some fairly tea leafy stuff for a #fancystats feller.

As for Nylander, I’m sympathetic to the effects that his rude introduction to NA had on his development. OTOH, the problematic lack of urgency in his game persisted well after that unfortunate episode. If he decides to play with the intensity requisite to success in the NHL, he’ll be a fine player. 

[Neo]

7 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

Tage's tools are as follows:
1.) Being tall
2.) Being young enough to have hope for development
3.) having good draft pedigree

Not compelling! And a hard shot doesn't count, as that's a product of number one, and being allowed a long stick (and I'll argue about torque all day baby)

Nylander's play between the whistles was far more useful and cerebral than Tage's, and manifested itself in his off-puck positioning, puck support for teammates, and in the transition game. Tage pooped his pants everywhere always 

This back and forth is precious!  Brazen certainty and pants pooping!

[Derrico]

5 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I tried to explain that in that post - he sucks if he's a player you're sticking out on NHL ice night after night. In that context, the thing he sucks at is helping the pro hockey team towards the immediate goal - winning tonight, and this season. When I say a player sucks that's what I'm talking about because I mostly avoid all of the prospect discussion around here because it's not that interesting to me. He obviously can become more than a bad NHLer, which, in a different context than one in which I say he sucks (likely lamenting something or other about a recent game or the roster or blah blah blah) I am happy to acknowledge.

But hey, you're getting at suggesting a way I can be less off-putting. I can try to use the word suck less, and use more words to convey these extra points

I think this is where you and I weren’t seeing eye to eye.  I still disagree nylander is a better nhl player today than TT.  Your 12 game sample size be damned ?. 

But yes if you have no interest in his age and where he is on his development curve then I could see how you got to essentially he’s not a great nhl player today.  I’m still very intrigued in what he will develop into two or three years down the road but I concede he’s a fringe nhler today.

[Derrico]

5 hours ago, SwampD said:

Is this true when talking about prospects, though? I would think that ceilings are more important at this stage. Seems like a good coach and organization would actually talk to a guy and figure out how to motivate them.

I mean, unless you really thought that we actually needed another D? ?

If you need to be motivated to do what’s necessary to crack one of the worst nhl rosters then good friggen riddance.  All of our roch fans have been feeding consistent info on him and it was never questioning why he isn’t in Buffalo.

[bob_sauve28]

9 hours ago, Mustache of God said:

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/video/henri-jokiharju-making-impact-his-first-games-season

 

 

2nd link is blackhawk player/coach interviews about him at the beginning of the season with some NHL footage.

He gets his shot off quickly 

[TrueBlueGED]

8 hours ago, nfreeman said:

@Randall Flagg, @WildCard:

Flagg wildly overstates TT’s struggles with his usual mix of a few small-sample fancystats and brazen certainty.

TT was in over his head on a crappy team and made mistakes, while still hustling and displaying a number of very nice tools.  Nylander was mediocre in the AHL, evinced zero urgency in his game and made a handful of non-terrible plays during garbage time.

Charity bet on who has a better season next year as between TT and Nylander?

Which, I may say, is considerably more than you have done for your side of the argument. Yes, Thompson's shot is hard...but unlike in real life, weapons of mass destruction in the NHL have to hit their target to matter. Alexei Zhitnik's point shot had a considerably better hit rate than Tage's one timers. Tage's top speed is fine, but he isn't quick, and his edge work is deplorable. 

8 hours ago, Derrico said:

@Randall Flagg you just hate anybody and anything that has to do with the ROR trade.  It’s shocking to me anyone thinks Nylander is a better prospect than TT.  This has much more to do with nylander than how confident I am in what TT will become.

In their short time in the NHL, both this season and the one before, Nylander has shown more. That's not to say he's shown a lot, but Thompson has legitimately been closer to washed-up Sobotka bad than a promising young player. 

Seriously, Thompson has been all-caps BAD:

I've posted this before, but it's worth re-posting to emphasize how bad Thompson has been as an NHL player, both here and in St. Louis. 

Honest question: would it be helpful to frame it as Thompson vs NHL players rather than Thompson vs Nylander? I really don't care if anyone questions Nylander, but nobody should think Thompson has been anything other than a disaster as an NHL player. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by TrueBlueGED

[LGR4GM]

7 hours ago, SwampD said:

Why am I not thrilled that we gave away the more talented player?

 

7 hours ago, SwampD said:

Is this true when talking about prospects, though? I would think that ceilings are more important at this stage. Seems like a good coach and organization would actually talk to a guy and figure out how to motivate them.

I mean, unless you really thought that we actually needed another D? ?

Hard work beats talent when talent refuses to work hard. 

While Nylander couldn't make the Sabres, Jokiharju was busy being the best defender on the blackhawks for about 30 games. The coaching change saw him fall out of favor. Considering what Kaiju showed during those pro games it says more about the coaching staff of the Hawks now than about him. He's a very dependable player and we should be excited. He's got 1st pairing potential as compared to I guess first line potential. I think Nylander will always struggle to live up to his talent level because of how he plays the game. 

Ceilings are not as important is actual on ice results. Kaiju showed he can play in the NHL at 19. I'll take the gamble that he will be the better player. 

6 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Which, I may say, is considerably more than you have done for your side of the argument. Yes, Thompson's shot is hard...but unlike in real life, weapons of mass destruction in the NHL have to hit their target to matter. Alexei Zhitnik's point shot had a considerably better hit rate than Tage's one timers. Tage's top speed is fine, but he isn't quick, and his edge work is deplorable. 

In their short time in the NHL, both this season and the one before, Nylander has shown more. That's not to say he's shown a lot, but Thompson has legitimately been closer to washed-up Sobotka bad than a promising young player. 

Seriously, Thompson has been all-caps BAD:

I've posted this before, but it's worth re-posting to emphasize how bad Thompson has been as an NHL player, both here and in St. Louis. 

Yea, Tage was/is awful. He's got a long way to go to even become a 3rd line guy. 

[triumph_communes]

21 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Which, I may say, is considerably more than you have done for your side of the argument. Yes, Thompson's shot is hard...but unlike in real life, weapons of mass destruction in the NHL have to hit their target to matter. Alexei Zhitnik's point shot had a considerably better hit rate than Tage's one timers. Tage's top speed is fine, but he isn't quick, and his edge work is deplorable. 

In their short time in the NHL, both this season and the one before, Nylander has shown more. That's not to say he's shown a lot, but Thompson has legitimately been closer to washed-up Sobotka bad than a promising young player. 

Seriously, Thompson has been all-caps BAD:

I've posted this before, but it's worth re-posting to emphasize how bad Thompson has been as an NHL player, both here and in St. Louis. 

Honest question: would it be helpful to frame it as Thompson vs NHL players rather than Thompson vs Nylander? I really don't care if anyone questions Nylander, but nobody should think Thompson has been anything other than a disaster as an NHL player. 

Tage has also always played with anchor teammates.  He only had a couple shifts on a line without a Sobotka, 4th line, etc, scenario.

Edited July 10, 2019 by triumph_communes

[TrueBlueGED]

4 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Tage has also always played with anchor teammates.  He only had a couple shifts on a line without a Sobotka, 4th line, etc, scenario.

That's not entirely true. He had a chance with better players and immediately pooped his pants. But this gets back to my question about comparing to other players. Know who else was saddled? Much-maligned Zemgus Girgensons. Know who played considerably better than Thompson? You guessed it, big Z! 

Edit: NHL hockey players don't have to be good at everything, but they have to be good at something. Tage is bad at everything. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by TrueBlueGED

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Derrico said:

If you need to be motivated to do what’s necessary to crack one of the worst nhl rosters then good friggen riddance.  All of our roch fans have been feeding consistent info on him and it was never questioning why he isn’t in Buffalo.

I'm just wondering how many more talented players who have “lost their love of the game” do we have to lose before we fix the actual problem?

[LGR4GM]

https://theathletic.com/1070234/2019/07/09/trade-grades-blackhawks-balance-depth-in-sending-henri-jokiharju-to-sabres-for-alexander-nylander/

Quote

That tournament is what I think of as Jokiharju’s best. He’s not a dynamic/flashy type, but he’s very smart, smooth, mobile and effective. That is the player Buffalo is getting.

Jokiharju’s vision is high end. He’s been a power play guy wherever he’s gone because of how well he moves the puck with poise and creativity.

 

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I'm just wondering how many more talented players who have “lost their love of the game” do we have to lose before we fix the actual problem?

Not sure what you mean but Nylander being "more" talented than Jokiharju is a very subjective statement. 

[ddaryl]

11 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I'm just wondering how many more talented players who have “lost their love of the game” do we have to lose before we fix the actual problem?

Not sure what this has to do with Nylander. How does an AHL'er lose the love of the game at age 20 ?

[triumph_communes]

25 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

That's not entirely true. He had a chance with better players and immediately pooped his pants. But this gets back to my question about comparing to other players. Know who else was saddled? Much-maligned Zemgus Girgensons. Know who played considerably better than Thompson? You guessed it, big Z! 

 

Edit: NHL hockey players don't have to be good at everything, but they have to be good at something. Tage is bad at everything. 

Girgensons never played with Sobotka.  You aren't factoring in the Off_GF Off_xG Off_CF black hole that Sobotka had on everyone he blessed his minutes with.  The guy refused to sustain a forecheck and gave up the offensive zone before his teammates would even lose possession.

 

 

I get that stats can help tell a story, but they aren't some slam poetry with great applause.  Thompson was put in bad situation after bad situation and I think some people should calm down on him.  He tore up the AHL after being sent down the second time in Stl, and in Buffalo.  Yes, he had his brain farts, but they don't completely describe him.  He has a very active pokecheck and an elite shot, and deployed properly can be a serviceable player.  Paired with Sobotka, he had none of that.

Edited July 10, 2019 by triumph_communes

[GoPre]

Interesting - Just heard Chicago has now traded every 1st round pick from 2011 to 2017.  

[Cityo'Rasmii]

7 hours ago, Thorny said:

I don't think we did if we were simply looking to build a good D. I absolutely love the idea of adding another d prospect with the ceiling of Jokiharju if the aim is building an elite defensive unit. All this talk of ceilings, he's got a higher ceiling than anyone else on our right side defense on the roster/in the system. 

I always remember that quote from I think Friedman back before the Dahlin lottery, where he said it would be much easier for Botterill to "tear this thing down to the studs" if we won. Dahlin gives us the ability to potentially, conceivably build the best defense in the NHL, and I would not be shocked if Botterill is envisioning something similar. 

A strong defensive side is probably also a good fit for us in the Atlantic division. We'd have a very long way to go to match the forward ranks of the Tampas and the Torontos. 

What Thorny said is spot on and I am rather amused by JBott's roster build strategy.

[TrueBlueGED]

4 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Girgensons never played with Sobotka.  You aren't factoring in the Off_GF Off_xG Off_CF black hole that Sobotka had on everyone he blessed his minutes with.  The guy refused to sustain a forecheck and gave up the offensive zone before his teammates would even lose possession.

 

Did you ignore the chart from my previous post showing Thompson also sucked in St. Louis? 

[triumph_communes]

2 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Did you ignore the chart from my previous post showing Thompson also sucked in St. Louis? 

You mean, where he also played with Sobotka and Berglund, lol?

Edited July 10, 2019 by triumph_communes

[bob_sauve28]

12 assists in 38 games for a rookie. That's pretty good, really. 

[...]

If this trade could have happened swapping TT for Nylander, it would have been better.  I think with some of the additions we have, we might not see TT as much this regular season.  Meanwhile, we'll finally see Nylander get some regular ice time.  

Still, as per the discussion about ROR, I think that it was inevitable Nylander was going to be shipped out of here due to the various cosmic and circumstantial forces that influence such things.

[TrueBlueGED]

6 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

You mean, where he also played with Sobotka and Berglund, lol?

How much ice time did they actually have together in St. Louis. 

Anyway, know who else had significant ice time with Sobotka this season? Rodrigues and Pominville's corpse. Know whose metrics weren't utterly destroyed by it? Rodrigues and Pominville's corpse. Why? Because they're not also bad hockey players. 

Sobotka is/was horrible and certainly dragged his linemates down, there's no disputing that. He should never see NHL ice again. But Thompson was also bad and dragged his linemates down. These things are not mutually exclusive. 

2 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

12 assists in 38 games for a rookie. That's pretty good, really. 

 

[SwampD]

23 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

Not sure what this has to do with Nylander. How does an AHL'er lose the love of the game at age 20 ?

Because people are drooling over themselves about what a steal this trade is, while at the same time we’re being told that Nylander is the guy with more talent, he just isn’t motivated, all while we know (rumored to know) that he had been in a toxic environment that maybe he feels the organ-eye-zation knew about. Does anybody actual talk to these guys?! We know GMTM/DB didn’t.

I dream of a day when the Sabre hold on to talent instead of this addition by subtraction method of team building that hasn’t worked out so well for us.

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, Derrico said:

I think this is where you and I weren’t seeing eye to eye.  I still disagree nylander is a better nhl player today than TT.  Your 12 game sample size be damned ?. 

But yes if you have no interest in his age and where he is on his development curve then I could see how you got to essentially he’s not a great nhl player today.  I’m still very intrigued in what he will develop into two or three years down the road but I concede he’s a fringe nhler today.

I am too, but since I don't get into prospects the way others do here, when I'm talking about the roster of the current team I tend to laser focus in on that topic, because that's what matters by far the most to me. And while Tage sucks, I certainly feel different about him than I do an older player that sucks, and would obviously not dump him for a 6th like I would Scandella or Sobotka. 

[SwampD]

Charts are annoying. Especially for prospects. Stats are a result, not a reason.

So unless your stats are good right out of the gate, you are never going to make it in the NHL and we should just write them off. Gottit.