Sabres Trade Alex Nylander to Chicago for D Man Henri Jokiharju

[bunomatic]

The Sabres finally figured out how to light a fire under Nylanders asss.

Lets wait and see if it motivates him. 

[nfreeman]

4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Tage's tools are as follows:
1.) Being tall
2.) Being young enough to have hope for development
3.) having good draft pedigree

Not compelling! And a hard shot doesn't count, as that's a product of number one, and being allowed a long stick (and I'll argue about torque all day baby)

Nylander's play between the whistles was far more useful and cerebral than Tage's, and manifested itself in his off-puck positioning, puck support for teammates, and in the transition game. Tage pooped his pants everywhere always 

Regarding Nylander’s allegedly good transition game — here’s Pronman:

“Overall his speed isn’t amazing. There were so many rushes this season, like this one, where he hits the line with average speed, tries to make a move and loses the puck.“

As for TT, his shot is a freaking weapon of mass destruction and, more importantly and more broadly, he is explosive.  He can score in multiple ways — not just the one-timer (and I don’t know why TF Howie didn’t figure out how to get TT a few of those per game). He can gain the zone with speed, make a move to beat a defender and score or pass.  

He needs experience, coaching and a non-dysfunctional environment.  Even with all that it might not work, but he was and is better than Nylander.  

[North Buffalo]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'd make a charity bet that I can convince nfreeman that Tage was a tank-tier Sabre while Alex was fine if completely boring and not-compelling, but I already gave a hundred hours to hockey stuff this summer and I simply cannot afford to do that again for Tage freakin Thompson, so I'll have to continue resolutely stomping around in absolutes

I guess we can all agree both are flawed and it depends on which one can fix their own flaws... I am betting  on TT, but at best it would be no more than one doll hair.

[Randall Flagg]

14 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

I agree that Nylander showed good positioning, but did nothing with it.  TT got out of position because of he is such a giraffe and couldn't stop himself quickly enough... lack of strength and overhustle.  His body couldn't catch up to what he was trying to do... this and that stupid curl and drag thing he did without properly protecting the puck.  If he can rid himself of that, I can see him taking the next step.

He's gotta be able to think faster. Any coach can quickly rid him of the toe drag. That mental leap is something that we have to pray happens, because I'm not sure there's any way to make it happen. I posted an example in another thread earlier:

This isn't some big Tage gaffe, it's just the shift in and shift out stuff that paints as clear a picture of a player as an NHL game is capable of. I could make hours of footage of plays like these that chisel away at his own stats and metrics along with his team's ability to maintain an edge over their opponent in a variety of facets of the game. There are two key mental lapses here associated with processing speed. Dahlin was the only option for that first pass, he wasn't aware of the pressure he should have been aware of. And then later the shot is in Hutton's glove before he's even aware that there's danger coming and he should be trying to take it out - he's still lumbering off the boards.

That's not to say there aren't plenty of flashy moments as well

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[SwampD]

I’m going with Nylander. He skates like an A (the letter). An A is hard to knock over.

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Regarding Nylander’s allegedly good transition game — here’s Pronman:

“Overall his speed isn’t amazing. There were so many rushes this season, like this one, where he hits the line with average speed, tries to make a move and loses the puck.“

As for TT, his shot is a freaking weapon of mass destruction and, more importantly and more broadly, he is explosive.  He can score in multiple ways — not just the one-timer (and I don’t know why TF Howie didn’t figure out how to get TT a few of those per game). He can gain the zone with speed, make a move to beat a defender and score or pass.  

He needs experience, coaching and a non-dysfunctional environment.  Even with all that it might not work, but he was and is better than Nylander.  

If it's a weapon of mass destruction, why is his career shooting percentage 27% lower than Johan Larsson's? Like I allude to, it's HARD because his height allows tremendous torque, but it's so woefully inaccurate that using a term like "weapon" or even "tool" to describe it miscasts what is really going on. I don't think I agree with calling him explosive either. While his top end speed is fine, my impression is that it takes him a while to get there, no?

As for the bold, I guess we just don't have similar definitions for what being a good player or having a positive impact on a hockey game are. Which is why we have a board on which to argue about it! Thanks for the fun. 

Just now, SwampD said:

I’m going with Nylander. He skates like an A (the letter). An A is hard to knock over.

I always feel like if I watched a hockey game in the same room as you and PA I'd see literally everything there is to see, in ways I'd have never imagined noticing myself

[Derrico]

@Randall Flagg you just hate anybody and anything that has to do with the ROR trade.  It’s shocking to me anyone thinks Nylander is a better prospect than TT.  This has much more to do with nylander than how confident I am in what TT will become.

[Randall Flagg]

2 minutes ago, Derrico said:

@Randall Flagg you just hate anybody and anything that has to do with the ROR trade.  It’s shocking to me anyone thinks Nylander is a better prospect than TT.  This has much more to do with nylander than how confident I am in what TT will become.

You must have missed me screeching when Berglund kept getting healthy scratched so that we could play the goofs he came over here with! I put lots of time into showing why I think he was part of the best fourth line I've seen on this team in over a decade.

Listen, I hated the ROR trade, and I still do, but I also do my best to watch hockey and only watch hockey, and to learn as much as I can from what I see. And I like good players, and I dislike bad ones. Tage was a very bad one, who could become a good one. We all let bias get in the way to some degree, but I don't think a dismissal of my view on the grounds that I don't like the trade that brought him here is warranted 

[dudacek]

Great read from the Hawks side of the trade by their Athletic reporter.

https://theathletic.com/1070051/2019/07/09/powers-trying-to-understand-why-the-blackhawks-traded-henri-jokiharju/?article_source=related

Basically, it says that the Hawks organization simply didn’t see Henri playing in their top four, now, or ever.

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, dudacek said:

Great read from the Hawks side of the trade by their Athletic reporter.

https://theathletic.com/1070051/2019/07/09/powers-trying-to-understand-why-the-blackhawks-traded-henri-jokiharju/?article_source=related

Basically, it says that the Hawks organization simply didn’t see Henri playing in their top four, now, or ever.

Psh, they're totally going to bring him back in three years from now for a russian superstar

[SwampD]

11 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

If it's a weapon of mass destruction, why is his career shooting percentage 27% lower than Johan Larsson's? Like I allude to, it's HARD because his height allows tremendous torque, but it's so woefully inaccurate that using a term like "weapon" or even "tool" to describe it miscasts what is really going on. I don't think I agree with calling him explosive either. While his top end speed is fine, my impression is that it takes him a while to get there, no?

As for the bold, I guess we just don't have similar definitions for what being a good player or having a positive impact on a hockey game are. Which is why we have a board on which to argue about it! Thanks for the fun. 

I always feel like if I watched a hockey game in the same room as you and PA I'd see literally everything there is to see, in ways I'd have never imagined noticing myself

TT reminds me of Gaustad, only with more skill. My only hope is that at only 21, we’ll get to eventually see it. 

[Randall Flagg]

7 minutes ago, SwampD said:

 TT reminds me of Gaustad, only with more skill. My only hope is that at only 21, we’ll get to eventually see it. 

I wonder if I should change the way I talk about this stuff - if I see a player in a Buffalo Sabres uniform, I'm analyzing him as an NHL player full stop, and will treat Casey Mittelstadt just like I treat Sidney Crosby, because they're both affecting the thing we all desperately need to see on the ice - our NHL team playing winning hockey right this very second. So I have no qualms saying  hey, Tage ***** sucks. So does Mitts. And Vlad. Skinner is pretty damn good. 

But I really don't think that Tage will always suck, and I don't think it's his fault he does - I think he shouldn't have been here, and the mistake was made way above his position in the organization. But it obviously comes off as pretty rude and pessimistic, and is off-putting. Open to suggestions for different mannerisms

I understand that Tage and Mitts can and quite possibly will become really good NHLers, and hope it happens, and will shower them with praise when they do. When they do, we might not have a 76, or 62, or some other trash number, point hockey team anymore. 

 

[Andrew Amerk]

2 hours ago, French Collection said:

Doubt that, I've been with the same woman for nearly 30 years.

She may call me little rocket man behind my back though.

Yeah, but she doesn’t call you Henri. 

BUST!!!

[SwampD]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I wonder if I should change the way I talk about this stuff - if I see a player in a Buffalo Sabres uniform, I'm analyzing him as an NHL player full stop, and will treat Casey Mittelstadt just like I treat Sidney Crosby, because they're both affecting the thing we all desperately need to see on the ice - our NHL team playing winning hockey right this very second. So I have no qualms saying  hey, Tage ***** sucks. So does Mitts. And Vlad. Skinner is pretty damn good. 

But I really don't think that Tage will always suck, and I don't think it's his fault he does - I think he shouldn't have been here, and the mistake was made way above his position in the organization. But it obviously comes off as pretty rude and pessimistic, and is off-putting. Open to suggestions for different mannerisms

I understand that Tage and Mitts can and quite possibly will become really good NHLers, and hope it happens, and will shower them with praise when they do. When they do, we might not have a 76, or 62, or some other trash number, point hockey team anymore. 

 

When I first read this, I thought you were talking about jersey numbers. Cuz when our team is finally good enough, we’ll have players worthy of actual hockey numbers. ?

[Andrew Amerk]

54 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

By the way, I'm not making that charity bet. I'm describing something already set in stone - what Tage gave us in 65 games compared to what Alex gave us in 12. I've hated Alex more and longer than 98% of posters here (in fact, freeman and weave may be the only ones to best me here), so I'm not putting any money on him for anything.

I watched Nylander many times with the Amerks. Unless a change of scenery drastically changes him, he’s not Dylan Strome 2.0 

[Randall Flagg]

Lmao hawks fans in that thread someone posted were talking about using Jokiharju to get Alex Tuch in addition to the W. Nylander discussions

"you have to give to get" 

hahahaha I hope he's as good as they thought he is 

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Analysis of the deal from the Athletic, courtesy Corey Pronman

https://theathletic.com/1070234/2019/07/09/trade-grades-blackhawks-balance-depth-in-sending-henri-jokiharju-to-sabres-for-alexander-nylander/

For those without a subscription, the gist:

“Between the two players, Nylander is the more talented by a moderate amount. However, I think Jokiharju is the slightly better player.

Public reaction I saw in the social media sphere shortly after the trade seems to think this is a massively one-sided trade. It isn’t.

As one executive put it after the trade, while agreeing that Nylander is more talented, “he hasn’t got it done yet, and you wonder if he ever will.” In contrast, Jokiharju has looked better as a pro at age 19 than Nylander has at age 20 (or when he was 19, as well).

Why am I not thrilled that we gave away the more talented player?

[Andrew Amerk]

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

Why am I not thrilled that we gave away the more talented player?

We did? Where’s the proof?

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Why am I not thrilled that we gave away the more talented player?

More talented at sick danglezzz. 

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Why am I not thrilled that we gave away the more talented player?

Because it feeds the natural tendency to think we will get burned.

Console yourself with “Better beats more talented every time.”

[Zamboni]

12 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I wonder if I should change the way I talk about this stuff - if I see a player in a Buffalo Sabres uniform, I'm analyzing him as an NHL player full stop, and will treat Casey Mittelstadt just like I treat Sidney Crosby, because they're both affecting the thing we all desperately need to see on the ice - our NHL team playing winning hockey right this very second. So I have no qualms saying  hey, Tage ***** sucks. So does Mitts. And Vlad. Skinner is pretty damn good. 

But I really don't think that Tage will always suck, and I don't think it's his fault he does - I think he shouldn't have been here, and the mistake was made way above his position in the organization. But it obviously comes off as pretty rude and pessimistic, and is off-putting. Open to suggestions for different mannerisms

I understand that Tage and Mitts can and quite possibly will become really good NHLers, and hope it happens, and will shower them with praise when they do. When they do, we might not have a 76, or 62, or some other trash number, point hockey team anymore. 

 

The one thing I would ask is ... TT sucks right? Sucks compared to what? Sucks compared to who? Sucks compared to your own expectations for a player his age, experience, development level etc ...

 

i personally, rarely label a guy’s talent level who made the NHL with the “sucks” label. I think it’s too strong of a word unless it’s followed or preceded by a time qualifier. He sucks right now. Right now, he sucks. Of course there’s always exceptions like Zagrapan and Leino ?

 

[Randall Flagg]

4 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

The one thing I would ask is ... TT sucks right? Sucks compared to what? Sucks compared to who? Sucks compared to your own expectations for a player his age, experience, development level etc ...

 

i personally, rarely label a guy’s talent level who made the NHL with the “sucks” label. I think it’s too strong of a word unless it’s followed or preceded by a time qualifier. He sucks right now. Right now, he sucks. Of course there’s always exceptions like Zagrapan and Leino ?

 

I tried to explain that in that post - he sucks if he's a player you're sticking out on NHL ice night after night. In that context, the thing he sucks at is helping the pro hockey team towards the immediate goal - winning tonight, and this season. When I say a player sucks that's what I'm talking about because I mostly avoid all of the prospect discussion around here because it's not that interesting to me. He obviously can become more than a bad NHLer, which, in a different context than one in which I say he sucks (likely lamenting something or other about a recent game or the roster or blah blah blah) I am happy to acknowledge.

But hey, you're getting at suggesting a way I can be less off-putting. I can try to use the word suck less, and use more words to convey these extra points

Edited July 10, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[SwampD]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Because it feeds the natural tendency to think we will get burned.

Console yourself with “Better beats more talented every time.”

Is this true when talking about prospects, though? I would think that ceilings are more important at this stage. Seems like a good coach and organization would actually talk to a guy and figure out how to motivate them.

I mean, unless you really thought that we actually needed another D? ?

[dudacek]

8 hours ago, SwampD said:

Is this true when talking about prospects, though? I would think that ceilings are more important at this stage. Seems like a good coach and organization would actually talk to a guy and figure out how to motivate them.

I mean, unless you really thought that we actually needed another D? ?

Probably semantics, but to my mind Grigorenko was a more talented prospect than Girgensons, but Girgs was better. They got the same developers at the same time.

Edited July 10, 2019 by dudacek

[Thorner]

19 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Is this true when talking about prospects, though? I would think that ceilings are more important at this stage. Seems like a good coach and organization would actually talk to a guy and figure out how to motivate them.

I mean, unless you really thought that we actually needed another D? ?

I don't think we did if we were simply looking to build a good D. I absolutely love the idea of adding another d prospect with the ceiling of Jokiharju if the aim is building an elite defensive unit. All this talk of ceilings, he's got a higher ceiling than anyone else on our right side defense on the roster/in the system. 

I always remember that quote from I think Friedman back before the Dahlin lottery, where he said it would be much easier for Botterill to "tear this thing down to the studs" if we won. Dahlin gives us the ability to potentially, conceivably build the best defense in the NHL, and I would not be shocked if Botterill is envisioning something similar. 

A strong defensive side is probably also a good fit for us in the Atlantic division. We'd have a very long way to go to match the forward ranks of the Tampas and the Torontos. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Thorny