Sabres Trade Alex Nylander to Chicago for D Man Henri Jokiharju

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Mustache of God said:

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/video/henri-jokiharju-making-impact-his-first-games-season

 

 

2nd link is blackhawk player/coach interviews about him at the beginning of the season with some NHL footage.

Great highlights. Can he play D? I really hope he works out for us because I still think Nylander will be good.

[Thorner]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Analysis of the deal from the Athletic, courtesy Corey Pronman

https://theathletic.com/1070234/2019/07/09/trade-grades-blackhawks-balance-depth-in-sending-henri-jokiharju-to-sabres-for-alexander-nylander/

For those without a subscription, the gist:

“Between the two players, Nylander is the more talented by a moderate amount. However, I think Jokiharju is the slightly better player.

Public reaction I saw in the social media sphere shortly after the trade seems to think this is a massively one-sided trade. It isn’t.

As one executive put it after the trade, while agreeing that Nylander is more talented, “he hasn’t got it done yet, and you wonder if he ever will.” In contrast, Jokiharju has looked better as a pro at age 19 than Nylander has at age 20 (or when he was 19, as well).

If it's not one-sided now (plenty of prominent hockey people don't share Pronman's analysis), it will be in a couple years, give or take. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Thorny

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don't think Hodgson and Kassian were prospects when they were dealt. 

Cody had played 71 NHL games, Zach 17, Henri 38 and Alex 19.

Wouldn’t call any of them established.

[nfreeman]

27 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I wouldn't say anything if I were him, but he's not wrong to be frustrated that we skirted meritocracy between him and Tage as far as right-handed prospects go. He was objectively better in his time here and they should have been swapped (perhaps several times during the season) far earlier than when he finally got up here.

I beg to differ.

I wish Alex the best, and I agree that TT's game performance didn't merit him staying up here all year, but Nylander didn't outplay a house plant, let alone TT.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Cody had played 71 NHL games, Zach 17, Henri 38 and Alex 19.

Wouldn’t call any of them established.

Well, Cody was 22, and a forward, and in retrospect he never got any better, statistically, than what he was when we acquired him. Hope this isn't, and don't think it will be, the case with HJ. 

Edit - Actually, his lockout year he improved his p/pg. But his highest point total was 44, and he had 41 the season we grabbed him. 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

6 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I beg to differ.

I wish Alex the best, and I agree that TT's game performance didn't merit him staying up here all year, but Nylander didn't outplay a house plant, let alone TT.

Tage did actively bad things every shift to create metrics that describe him as a bottom 5-10 skater to touch NHL ice all season. these things included direct-assisting to opponents goals via multiple avenues, including ridiculous toe-drag attempts and being completely overwhelmed mentally with the speed of the game (a panic throw back on an odd man rush that give WPG a two on one goal, for example). 

Alex didn't actively do a lot of positive things, but he brought nothing like this, er, ability, to the table, and scored goals roughly twice as often per unit ice time given (of course, small sample size, but I know you like goals and traditional counting stats, so I'm just showing that alex torches tage here as well as the other stuff)

Alex was objectively and in every possible manner better at NHL hockey than Tage Thompson in the 2018-19 season, in his 12 games and Tage's 65. Largely as a function of just how awful Tage truly was.

If only these two were worth breaking out the camera again to get into even more detail

Edited July 10, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[WildCard]

14 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Nylander's comments (which really aren't all that bad) aren't the first time a player has given a vibe that things are 'off' in a way, here. The same hint of a whiff of a smell was there with both ROR and Berglund. Nobody outright saying "clown organization," of course.

 

Probably the reason we have an entirely new organization. We saw the same with Rex and Marrone, haven't seen that with MvBeane; quite the opposite

[erickompositör72]

13 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Nylander's comments (which really aren't all that bad) aren't the first time a player has given a vibe that things are 'off' in a way, here. The same hint of a whiff of a smell was there with both ROR and Berglund. Nobody outright saying "clown organization," of course.

 

I'm hoping the things that were "off" for him were primarily the treatment from Cal O'R and housley's preference for Tage. I.e., I hope we're moving away from being a clown organization 

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, WildCard said:

Probably the reason we have an entirely new organization. We saw the same with Rex and Marrone, haven't seen that with MvBeane; quite the opposite

FWIW, all of those comments/situations occurred under the current GM (and most non-coaching front office positions as far as I know)

Edited July 10, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[WildCard]

7 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I beg to differ.

I wish Alex the best, and I agree that TT's game performance didn't merit him staying up here all year, but Nylander didn't outplay a house plant, let alone TT.

I don't think you realize just how utterly awhile TT was/is

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

FWIW, all of those comments occurred under the current GM (and most non-coaching front office positions as far as I know)

Under the current GM but players brought/raised by the former GM

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

FWIW, all of those comments/situations occurred under the current GM (and most non-coaching front office positions as far as I know)

Well the Cal O'Reilly bit seems the most damning, that was under Murray, no?

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Well, Cody was 22, and a forward, and in retrospect he never got any better, statistically, than what he was when we acquired him. Hope this isn't, and don't think it will be, the case with HJ. 

Edit - Actually, his lockout year he improved his p/pg. But his highest point total was 44, and he had 41 the season we grabbed him. 

Geez, Cody had 34 points in 48 games that year. Better than I remembered and pretty good for a 22-year-old. Similar to Sam Reinhart’s numbers at that age.

What might have been if he hadn’t have come down with illness.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Who for who?

I'll hang up and listen now.

[Randall Flagg]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Well the Cal O'Reilly bit seems the most damning, that was under Murray, no?

That did, but I don't think that really fits into the group of events/quotes I was talking about - just players themselves potentially being skeptical of organizational competence

[Richard Noggin]

7 hours ago, woods-racer said:

It could be as innocent as JBott was shopping Nylander and got offered this.

But your assessment is not out of the realm.

Occam's Razor. 

Always start with the simple/obvious, and build out from there.

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

That did, but I don't think that really fits into the group of events/quotes I was talking about - just players themselves potentially being skeptical of organizational competence

Eight years of sucking comes with its own tremendous amount of baggage in and of itself.

Botterill will have to overcome that, personally earned or not.

[nfreeman]

@Randall Flagg, @WildCard:

Flagg wildly overstates TT’s struggles with his usual mix of a few small-sample fancystats and brazen certainty.

TT was in over his head on a crappy team and made mistakes, while still hustling and displaying a number of very nice tools.  Nylander was mediocre in the AHL, evinced zero urgency in his game and made a handful of non-terrible plays during garbage time.

Charity bet on who has a better season next year as between TT and Nylander?

[dudacek]

Just now, nfreeman said:

@Randall Flagg, @WildCard:

Flagg wildly overstates TT’s struggles with his usual mix of a few small-sample fancystats and brazen certainty.

TT was in over his head on a crappy team and made mistakes, while still hustling and displaying a number of very nice tools.  Nylander was mediocre in the AHL, evinced zero urgency in his game and made a handful of non-terrible plays during garbage time.

Charity bet on who has a better season next year as between TT and Nylander?

This is a great challenge. I rarely feel that strongly about a prospect and both these guys have so much boom or bust potential.

[WildCard]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

@Randall Flagg, @WildCard:

Flagg wildly overstates TT’s struggles with his usual mix of a few small-sample fancystats and brazen certainty.

TT was in over his head on a crappy team and made mistakes, while still hustling and displaying a number of very nice tools.  Nylander was mediocre in the AHL, evinced zero urgency in his game and made a handful of non-terrible plays during garbage time.

Charity bet on who has a better season next year as between TT and Nylander?

Flagg does no such thing. TT is ***** horrible

[Randall Flagg]

3 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

@Randall Flagg, @WildCard:

Flagg wildly overstates TT’s struggles with his usual mix of a few small-sample fancystats and brazen certainty.

TT was in over his head on a crappy team and made mistakes, while still hustling and displaying a number of very nice tools.  Nylander was mediocre in the AHL, evinced zero urgency in his game and made a handful of non-terrible plays during garbage time.

Charity bet on who has a better season next year as between TT and Nylander?

Tage's tools are as follows:
1.) Being tall
2.) Being young enough to have hope for development
3.) having good draft pedigree

Not compelling! And a hard shot doesn't count, as that's a product of number one, and being allowed a long stick (and I'll argue about torque all day baby)

Nylander's play between the whistles was far more useful and cerebral than Tage's, and manifested itself in his off-puck positioning, puck support for teammates, and in the transition game. Tage pooped his pants everywhere always 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Randall Flagg]

By the way, I'm not making that charity bet. I'm describing something already set in stone - what Tage gave us in 65 games compared to what Alex gave us in 12. I've hated Alex more and longer than 98% of posters here (in fact, freeman and weave may be the only ones to best me here), so I'm not putting any money on him for anything.

[North Buffalo]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

@Randall Flagg, @WildCard:

Flagg wildly overstates TT’s struggles with his usual mix of a few small-sample fancystats and brazen certainty.

TT was in over his head on a crappy team and made mistakes, while still hustling and displaying a number of very nice tools.  Nylander was mediocre in the AHL, evinced zero urgency in his game and made a handful of non-terrible plays during garbage time.

Charity bet on who has a better season next year as between TT and Nylander?

I'll take TT with you... and agree with you assessment... combined with the upper body and leg strength and weight he put on this spring I am betting we see a much improved TT.  Nylander's problem is between his ears and in his heart.

[Thorner]

23 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Geez, Cody had 34 points in 48 games that year. Better than I remembered and pretty good for a 22-year-old. Similar to Sam Reinhart’s numbers at that age.

What might have been if he hadn’t have come down with illness.

I thought the trade was an absolute steal when it happened as I really though Cody would blossom here. 

[North Buffalo]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

By the way, I'm not making that charity bet. I'm describing something already set in stone - what Tage gave us in 65 games compared to what Alex gave us in 12. I've hated Alex more and longer than 98% of posters here (in fact, freeman and weave may be the only ones to best me here), so I'm not putting any money on him for anything.

I agree that Nylander showed good positioning, but did nothing with it.  TT got out of position because of he is such a giraffe and couldn't stop himself quickly enough... lack of strength and overhustle.  His body couldn't catch up to what he was trying to do... this and that stupid curl and drag thing he did without properly protecting the puck.  If he can rid himself of that, I can see him taking the next step.

[Randall Flagg]

I'd make a charity bet that I can convince nfreeman that Tage was a tank-tier Sabre while Alex was fine if completely boring and not-compelling, but I already gave a hundred hours to hockey stuff this summer and I simply cannot afford to do that again for Tage freakin Thompson, so I'll have to continue resolutely stomping around in absolutes