Who Are the 2C and 3C Candidates Internal and External?

[dudacek]

38 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, it wouldn’t be his 3rd season with no #2C, as ROR was there for 1 year.  

I agree that he needs to acquire a viable center though.  And I wish @dudacekwould stop lobbying for another questionable BC guy in Turris, because I’m growing increasingly concerned that he’s the guy we end up with and the likelihood of him being lousy for most of that albatross contract is extremely high.  

(Although I think JB is too smart to take Turris unless KO is going the other way.)

I hope I’m not coming across as lobbying.

When I look at his track record, skill set, availability and price point I think he’s someone who is likely to be acquired, and that’s even before Webster shared insider info that he is on their radar. But that doesn’t mean I want him.

I think there is a chance that he rebounds given his age and skating ability, but I share the general reticence about his contract and think a sweetener like retention would be required to get my attention in trade talks.

I guess I’d rather bet $25 M on Turris over the next five years than Dzingel, but neither is an attractive option.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by dudacek

[Tondas]

1 hour ago, sweetlou said:

I don't mind Casey being the #2 but let him play with Reinhart for more then 3 shifts.  I still think a player like Ferland is what this team needs.

Skinner- Eichel- Vesey

Ferland- Mitts- Reinhart

Sheary- ERod- Nylander

Girgensons- Larsson- Okposo

 

 

 

Seems realistic (not saying it scares anyone though).  I would swap out Nylander for Olofsson.

[triumph_communes]

The problem with Mittelstadt was his conditioning (just like Eichel at the same age), and being anchored by Okposo almost all season. 

 

His shifts with Skinner and Reinhart were magical. Eichel can hold his own with other wingers we have. 

 

Its not the end of the world if we go into the season with Mittelstadt as a 2C. Girgensons and Larsson or Rodrigues can hold down the 3/4C just fine. More talent on the wing and these centers aren’t in shambles like last season. Plus a new system and coach will do wonders. 

[dudacek]

I think we need to focus in on exactly what we mean by a 2nd line centre. 

We can define it as Ryan O’Reilly - a serviceable 1C who is not an elite offensive talent. Or we can define it as a clear upgrade to Evan Rodrigues or Casey Mittelstadt. That’s a pretty broad spectrum of player and it comes with a pretty broad spectrum of price tags.

I think I’m safe in saying that most of us want a modicum of offence so I decided to focus primarily on that, but a quick look at the scoring stats makes it very clear that the elite “2Cs” are simply “1Cs” minus the “elite” hype or playing in someone’s shadow - Point, Malkin, O’Reilly, Karlsson, Kuznetsov, Couturier, Couture, Duchene - they all finished in the top 30 for points scored by centres over the past two years.

They don’t become available that often and usually arrive through development from high picks (Couture, Kuznetsov) or surprise internal development (Point). Every year or two one comes on the market through a variety of circumstance and can be acquired for a big package (Duchene, O’Reilly). It’s my feeling that Botterill has positioned himself well to pounce should circumstances free up an opportunity like that, but there is no guarantee that even if an opportunity occurs that he will have the right bid.

So it’s probably best that we focus of the more typical offensive 2Cs.

Removing guys who are either obvious building blocks (Hischier) or recently acquired (Pavelski) these are guys that have finished 30-80th in NHL centre scoring over the past 2 years and might be made available at the right price: 

E. Staal, Schenn, Granlund, Nugent-Hopkins, Krejci, Getzlaf, Johnson, Stastny, Henrique, Backlund, Stepan, Tierney, Little, Bozak, Namestnikov, Danault, Derek Ryan, Bjugstad, Eller, J Staal, Turris, Koivu, and Zajac.

Most are playing important roles on their current team, have NTCs, or are on risky contracts, but if you want someone with a track record, these are probably your choices.

Then there is the “Wild Bill” trade: targetting an unpolished gem waiting to be thrust into the right position to shine. Good luck finding one who is available, undervalued around the league and you can count on to be better this season than Casey. Most teams who have a Cirelli want to hold on with both hands.

We also could aim lower and add a defensive 3C like an Eakin or a Lowry to help Jack with the tough matchups and hope Sam and/or Jeff can lift Casey on a sheltered offensive line. It’s not ideal, but it’s beter than the status quo.

We have the ability to pay picks and prospects and we have a lot of depth on defence. We could have had JT Miller or Andrew Shaw or Erik Haula or Nazem Kadri, or at least we had the pieces. We didn’t make it happen.

The dance is nearly over. When the music stops playing is Botterill going to be left standing alone?

Edited July 6, 2019 by dudacek

[Weave]

38 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

The dance is nearly over. When the music stops playing is Botterill going to be left standing alone?

As I mentioned in the Vesey thread, my gut is telling me that JBott made a value judgement and isn't willing to pay the current market price for a 2C, and is willing to try shoring up the situation at wing to get improved lines 2 and 3 performance.  Better value at the wing positions.

I am skeptical that this play will be successful.

[TrueBlueGED]

4 minutes ago, Weave said:

As I mentioned in the Vesey thread, my gut is telling me that JBott made a value judgement and isn't willing to pay the current market price for a 2C, and is willing to try shoring up the situation at wing to get improved lines 2 and 3 performance.  Better value at the wing positions.

I am skeptical that this play will be successful.

Somebody should tell Botterill there's a reason that wings are cheaper to acquire...

[TrueBlueGED]

50 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think we need to focus in on exactly what we mean by a 2nd line centre. 

We can define it as Ryan O’Reilly - a serviceable 1C who is not an elite offensive talent. Or we can define it as a clear upgrade to Evan Rodrigues or Casey Mittelstadt. That’s a pretty broad spectrum of player and it comes with a pretty broad spectrum of price tags.

I think I’m safe in saying that most of us want a modicum of offence so I decided to focus primarily on that, but a quick look at the scoring stats makes it very clear that the elite “2Cs” are simply “1Cs” minus the “elite” hype or playing in someone’s shadow - Point, Malkin, O’Reilly, Karlsson, Kuznetsov, Couturier, Couture, Duchene - they all finished in the top 30 for points scored by centres over the past two years.

They don’t become available that often and usually arrive through development from high picks (Couture, Kuznetsov) or surprise internal development (Point). Every year or two one comes on the market through a variety of circumstance and can be acquired for a big package (Duchene, O’Reilly). It’s my feeling that Botterill has positioned himself well to pounce should circumstances free up an opportunity like that, but there is no guarantee that even if an opportunity occurs that he will have the right bid.

So it’s probably best that we focus of the more typical offensive 2Cs.

Removing guys who are either obvious building blocks (Hischier) or recently acquired (Pavelski) these are guys that have finished 30-80th in NHL centre scoring over the past 2 years and might be made available at the right price: 

E. Staal, Schenn, Granlund, Nugent-Hopkins, Krejci, Getzlaf, Johnson, Stastny, Henrique, Backlund, Stepan, Tierney, Little, Bozak, Namestnikov, Danault, Derek Ryan, Bjugstad, Eller, J Staal, Turris, Koivu, and Zajac.

Most are playing important roles on their current team, have NTCs, or are on risky contracts, but if you want someone with a track record, these are probably your choices.

Then there is the “Wild Bill” trade: targetting an unpolished gem waiting to be thrust into the right position to shine. Good luck finding one who is available, undervalued around the league and you can count on to be better this season than Casey. Most teams who have a Cirelli want to hold on with both hands.

We also could aim lower and add a defensive 3C like an Eakin or a Lowry to help Jack with the tough matchups and hope Sam and/or Jeff can lift Casey on a sheltered offensive line. It’s not ideal, but it’s beter than the status quo.

We have the ability to pay picks and prospects and we have a lot of depth on defence. We could have had JT Miller or Andrew Shaw or Erik Haula or Nazem Kadri, or at least we had the pieces. We didn’t make it happen.

The dance is nearly over. When the music stops playing is Botterill going to be left standing alone?

I would love to know which of those deals we were in on and why it just didn't happen. Player interest? In-division trade barriers? Too pricey? And so on. 

[TrueBlueGED]

3 hours ago, sweetlou said:

I don't mind Casey being the #2 but let him play with Reinhart for more then 3 shifts.  I still think a player like Ferland is what this team needs.

Skinner- Eichel- Vesey

Ferland- Mitts- Reinhart

Sheary- ERod- Nylander

Girgensons- Larsson- Okposo

 

 

 

This lineup isn't a playoff team, barring a miracle run of goaltending. I don't even think that's a bubble team. 

[Tondas]

3 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

This lineup isn't a playoff team, barring a miracle run of goaltending. I don't even think that's a bubble team. 

Totally agree.  JBOT can't be that dumb/naive/incompetent to think that this lineup gets us close to sniffing a playoff spot.  He's GOT TO do more than he has already this off season.

[Huckleberry]

2 hours ago, Tondas said:

Totally agree.  JBOT can't be that dumb/naive/incompetent to think that this lineup gets us close to sniffing a playoff spot.  He's GOT TO do more than he has already this off season.

Yup and its a long off season once again, but I can see him making a few moves still.  Some of which the ground work was already done at the trade deadline.

[Tondas]

I heard a rumor that the Sabres were definitely interested in a bag of pucks and the Canucks were looking for a Sobotka-like forward.  The two sides were close but the Sabres were holding out for a few more pucks.   Fire JBOT.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Tondas

[GoPuckYourself]

Line 1: L Jeff Skinner- C Jack Eichel- R Sam Reinhart

Line 2: L Marcus Johansson C Ryan Dzingel R Casey Middlstadt

Line 3: L Jimmy Vesey C ERod R Kyle Okposso

Line 4: L Connor Sheary C Rasmus Asplund R Alexander Nylander

DEF 1: L Rasmus Dahlin R Brandon Montour

DEF 2: L Jake McCabe R Rasmus Ristolainen

DEF 3: L Marco Scandella R Colin Miller

G: Carter Hutton

 

It's amazing how much better this roster would look with Dzingel and Johansson on it. I'm not hating the defensive depth either, where does Bogo even fit? And I really hope Ullmark just dedicates himself and becomes the man in net here right away, some nights he looked unstoppable and some he looked like a PeeWee goaltender.

 

[inkman]

4 hours ago, GoPuckYourself said:

Line 1: L Jeff Skinner- C Jack Eichel- R Sam Reinhart

Line 2: L Marcus Johansson C Ryan Dzingel R Casey Middlstadt

Line 3: L Jimmy Vesey C ERod R Kyle Okposso

Line 4: L Connor Sheary C Rasmus Asplund R Alexander Nylander

DEF 1: L Rasmus Dahlin R Brandon Montour

DEF 2: L Jake McCabe R Rasmus Ristolainen

DEF 3: L Marco Scandella R Colin Miller

G: Carter Hutton

 

It's amazing how much better this roster would look with Dzingel and Johansson on it. I'm not hating the defensive depth either, where does Bogo even fit? And I really hope Ullmark just dedicates himself and becomes the man in net here right away, some nights he looked unstoppable and some he looked like a PeeWee goaltender.

 

That 4th line would get demolished in their own zone 

[North Buffalo]

21 hours ago, Gatorman0519 said:

How in the heck is it possible we are 5 years into the “rebuild” and we don’t have a #2C on this roster???? Wow has this team been grossly mismanaged. 

If you have to ask... you havent followed them.  Murray trading away picks for Lehner... Sam and whole draft had no centers... Jack ok, Nolander debacle.. Mitts with a coke and a smile, OReilly sulk and trade... Cozens thumb... sigh guess its time to start 2020 draft thread.

[WildCard]

External candidates:

Anze Kopitar

Tyler Toffoli 

Mikael Granlund

Radek Faska

Mikael Backlund

Derek Ryan

Craig Smith

That's just the west, I have a hard time believing we're trading with anyone in the East

With Duchene in Nashville now I think Granlund is a real possibility, the problem is they don't want Risto, and as far as 'win now' moves we don't have anything else left to offer

[inkman]

43 minutes ago, WildCard said:

External candidates:

Anze Kopitar

Tyler Toffoli 

Mikael Granlund

Radek Faska

Mikael Backlund

Derek Ryan

Craig Smith

That's just the west, I have a hard time believing we're trading with anyone in the East

With Duchene in Nashville now I think Granlund is a real possibility, the problem is they don't want Risto, and as far as 'win now' moves we don't have anything else left to offer

Why is Kopitar on that list?  Unless you've heard something I haven't, I just have a hard time figuring out why they'd want to move him. 

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

Why is Kopitar on that list?  Unless you've heard something I haven't, I just have a hard time figuring out why they'd want to move him. 

They suck, need to start a rebuild

[TrueBlueGED]

2 minutes ago, WildCard said:

They suck, need to start a rebuild

You're right, but that's just not how GMs do things. 

[sweetlou]

53 minutes ago, WildCard said:

External candidates:

Anze Kopitar

Tyler Toffoli 

Mikael Granlund

Radek Faska

Mikael Backlund

Derek Ryan

Craig Smith

That's just the west, I have a hard time believing we're trading with anyone in the East

With Duchene in Nashville now I think Granlund is a real possibility, the problem is they don't want Risto, and as far as 'win now' moves we don't have anything else left to offer

Nashville has pretty much set their roster with 22 players signed.  They also still have $5 million in cap space and only 4th line center in Sissons to sign as RFA.

They do have an over abundance of Centers now with Duchene, Johansen, Turris, Granlund, Bonino, Jankrok and Sissons all who have played center in their careers.

I would have no problem in getting a guy like Bonino, Jankrok, or Sissons as #3 center to help with defensive responsibility and relieve Jack of top end match ups and shelter Casey against other teams third line. 

I think either of these guys could be had for either SHeary or BOGO if they want experience or Nylander if they want a prospect and less salary.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2019 by sweetlou

[inkman]

Just now, WildCard said:

They suck, need to start a rebuild

Say you are right and their management agrees. I can't imagine the Sabres taking on 10 mil a year until 2024. Even if they figured out how to do it, I'm guessing it's going to take Cozens and a few other nice pieces to make it happen (Mitts, Olofsson, Borgen?). 

[dudacek]

This hurts given how much I like the player, but if he’s the price to pay for a Brayden Point or another young centre of that level, then Sam Reinhart should be on the table in trade talks.

He’s a very valuable chip, and our improved options on the wings and lack of same down the middle demand it be considered.

[GASabresIUFAN]

While there still maybe another move to bolster the center position, I'm fairly confident the signing of Johansson is for the 2C.  

That doesn't preclude us from trading for Bjugstad to bolster the RW and given us another C option. 

I like where Jbot is going.  Adding Johansson, Miller and Vesey has created a faster, more skilled and deeper roster on paper.  Now HCRK has to get the guys to gel quickly and accept the roles given them and play to win.  Johansson also has a ton of playoff experience which we could also use. 

[TrueBlueGED]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

While there still maybe another move to bolster the center position, I'm fairly confident the signing of Johansson is for the 2C.  

That doesn't preclude us from trading for Bjugstad to bolster the RW and given us another C option. 

I like where Jbot is going.  Adding Johansson, Miller and Vesey has created a faster, more skilled and deeper roster on paper.  Now HCRK has to get the guys to gel quickly and accept the roles given them and play to win.  Johansson also has a ton of playoff experience which we could also use. 

Why? 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, TrueBlueGED said:

Why? 

Because at this time we have no one else.

[TrueBlueGED]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

Because at this time we have no one else.

Those 3 words are doing a lot of work in your thought process.