Risto said it's time for him to go?

[darksabre]

Just now, LTS said:

You'll be happier just ignoring him.  Honestly.  He's clearly living up to his name and he's ground the axe so far his fingers are bleeding.  He's not going to stop.

I like Drunkard. I don't want to ignore him. But his logic here is a bucket full of holes.

[LTS]

Just now, darksabre said:

I like Drunkard. I don't want to ignore him. But his logic here is a bucket full of holes.

I really meant on this topic.  Not using the ignore function.  And yes, it is, but there are people who are going to ignore that information.  They'll claim you are adhering to crazy apologist theories and choose to ignore that they are also clinging to their accusatory theories with equal strength.  For people like you and me, we look at the information that surrounds the move itself and begin to think, no reasonable GM would do it unless there was something there.  For others, they will just claim Botterill is that unreasonable GM.

In the end, he's still going to believe that the Botterill vaccine causes autism.

[Drunkard]

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I like Drunkard. I don't want to ignore him. But his logic here is a bucket full of holes.

I was googling to try to find the link, but had no success. Someone on this very board posted a link a while back that said Carolina was interested in O'Reilly but not until after the Sabres paid his bonus on July 1st. Considering how they traded both Lindholm and Hanifin to Calgary and both of those players are better than anything we received from St. Louis, I don't think it's a leap that we could have gotten at least one of them if we had agreed to trade them O'Reilly after his bonus was paid. Botterill either set an arbitrary deadline or failed to convince a novice owner that setting an arbitrary deadline would severely hamper the value in a trade. Either way he failed.

[darksabre]

Just now, Drunkard said:

I was googling to try to find the link, but had no success. Someone on this very board posted a link a while back that said Carolina was interested in O'Reilly but not until after the Sabres paid his bonus on July 1st. Considering how they traded both Lindholm and Hanifin to Calgary and both of those players are better than anything we received from St. Louis, I don't think it's a leap that we could have gotten at least one of them if we had agreed to trade them O'Reilly after his bonus was paid. Botterill either set an arbitrary deadline or failed to convince a novice owner that setting an arbitrary deadline would severely hamper the value in a trade. Either way he failed.

That's all speculation. We don't know that a better offer was there from Carolina.

[Drunkard]

6 minutes ago, LTS said:

I really meant on this topic.  Not using the ignore function.  And yes, it is, but there are people who are going to ignore that information.  They'll claim you are adhering to crazy apologist theories and choose to ignore that they are also clinging to their accusatory theories with equal strength.  For people like you and me, we look at the information that surrounds the move itself and begin to think, no reasonable GM would do it unless there was something there.  For others, they will just claim Botterill is that unreasonable GM.

In the end, he's still going to believe that the Botterill vaccine causes autism.

Don't lump me in with anti-vaxers, buddy. I've had my shots.

 

[LTS]

1 minute ago, Drunkard said:

Don't lump me in with anti-vaxers, buddy. I've had my shots.

 

Yes, judging by your name and your take, a few too many. ?

[Drunkard]

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

That's all speculation. We don't know that a better offer was there from Carolina.

Maybe so, I couldn't find the link so I'll take your word for it. There are plenty of budget teams who would love to have a good player like O'Reilly, especially given his favorable contract. Don't you think it's likely that a team like Carolina, Arizona, or Ottawa would have been willing to beat what the Blues gave us for a good player with a $7.5 million cap hit who they would only have to pay $1 million to? Those teams have tons of former top 10 picks from many years of drafting high. I think it would be highly unlikely we wouldn't have been able to pry at least one player better than Tage Thompson out of their hands.

[darksabre]

Just now, Drunkard said:

Maybe so, I couldn't find the link so I'll take your word for it. There are plenty of budget teams who would love to have a good player like O'Reilly, especially given his favorable contract. Don't you think it's likely that a team like Carolina, Arizona, or Ottawa would have been willing to beat what the Blues gave us for a good player with a $7.5 million cap hit who they would only have to pay $1 million to? Those teams have tons of former top 10 picks from many years of drafting high. I think it would be highly unlikely we wouldn't have been able to pry at least one player better than Tage Thompson out of their hands.

Then why didn't those teams make better offers? Are their GMs all stupid? 

I think if someone had wanted to outbid Armstrong they would have. But they didn't. 

Choose your own adventure as to why that is.

[Drunkard]

12 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Then why didn't those teams make better offers? Are their GMs all stupid? 

I think if someone had wanted to outbid Armstrong they would have. But they didn't. 

Choose your own adventure as to why that is.

They wanted to wait for the Sabres to pay the bonus on July 1st before they traded for him. Budget owners can be that way. I've lost track of how many times I've read Senators and Hurricanes fans complain about their owners on HFboards. Botterill traded him to St. Louis because the Blues paid the bonus while the bargain bin teams were still waiting it out.

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, Drunkard said:

They wanted to wait for the Sabres to pay the bonus on July 1st before they traded for him. Budget owners can be that way. I've lost track of how many times I've read Senators and Hurricanes fans complain about their owners on HFboards. Botterill traded him to St. Louis because the Blues paid the bonus while the bargain bin teams were still waiting it out.

That's not Botterill's fault then. That's on the owners of these other teams. The Blues outbid them by paying the bonus.

Take it up with T-Pegs if you're mad that he didn't want to pay the bonus.

[Brawndo]

35 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

I was googling to try to find the link, but had no success. Someone on this very board posted a link a while back that said Carolina was interested in O'Reilly but not until after the Sabres paid his bonus on July 1st. Considering how they traded both Lindholm and Hanifin to Calgary and both of those players are better than anything we received from St. Louis, I don't think it's a leap that we could have gotten at least one of them if we had agreed to trade them O'Reilly after his bonus was paid. Botterill either set an arbitrary deadline or failed to convince a novice owner that setting an arbitrary deadline would severely hamper the value in a trade. Either way he failed.

That was me who posted this originally.

4 minutes ago, darksabre said:

That's not Botterill's fault then. That's on the owners of these other teams. The Blues outbid them by paying the bonus.

Take it up with T-Pegs if you're mad that he didn't want to pay the bonus.

This is the reason I posted it. 

[Drunkard]

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

That's not Botterill's fault then. That's on the owners of these other teams. The Blues outbid them by paying the bonus.

Take it up with T-Pegs if you're mad that he didn't want to pay the bonus.

I still blame Botterill because he's supposed to be the subject matter expect on all things Buffalo Sabres and it's his job to turn the organization into a winner. I don't doubt that Pegula likely instructed him to move him before the bonus was paid, but Botterill should have explained just had how badly not waiting would hurt the return in the trade and set back the organization that he is supposed to be leading to success. Pegula is a novice owner and given that Botterill came so highly regarded and recommended by the league it should have bought him enough clout to convince his boss.

[LGR4GM]

 

[Drunkard]

Just now, Brawndo said:

That was me who posted this originally.

This is the reason I posted it. 

Cool. I remembered reading it, but couldn't remember who posted it or where.

You guys seem to want to give Botterill a pass and that's fine but I'll continue to disagree.

Pegula has more money than God and he has every right to spent it how he pleases, but if that's his mindset then his introductory press conference was a lie. He cares more about who paid O'Reilly his $7.5 million bonus than winning. It means that he was willing to set the team back and all his big talk about drilling another gas well and starting today our purpose is to win the Stanley Cup was just nonsense and he let his ego get in the way of making the team better or at least not setting the rebuild back.

[darksabre]

4 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

I still blame Botterill because he's supposed to be the subject matter expect on all things Buffalo Sabres and it's his job to turn the organization into a winner. I don't doubt that Pegula likely instructed him to move him before the bonus was paid, but Botterill should have explained just had how badly not waiting would hurt the return in the trade and set back the organization that he is supposed to be leading to success. Pegula is a novice owner and given that Botterill came so highly regarded and recommended by the league it should have bought him enough clout to convince his boss.

Ifs and buts.

Botterill isn't Terry's boss, and if you want to be fair to Terry, the Sabres are a small market team not unlike some of the other teams who you say were unwilling to pay the bonus too.

String Terry up if you want, I wont stop you. But to say Botterill should have been able to will Terry into paying O'Reilly's bonus with cold hard logic is to oversimplify the realities of how people, especially business owners, make decisions.

[Drunkard]

22 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Ifs and buts.

Botterill isn't Terry's boss, and if you want to be fair to Terry, the Sabres are a small market team not unlike some of the other teams who you say were unwilling to pay the bonus too.

String Terry up if you want, I wont stop you. But to say Botterill should have been able to will Terry into paying O'Reilly's bonus with cold hard logic is to oversimplify the realities of how people, especially business owners, make decisions.

Fair enough. I place plenty of blame on Pegula as well, for the record, but I recognize he's a novice that happens to have veto power. I honestly don't think Botterill knew exactly how much trading Eeyore was going to set the team back though.

[Derrico]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

String Terry up if you want, I wont stop you. But to say Botterill should have been able to will Terry into paying O'Reilly's bonus with cold hard logic is to oversimplify the realities of how people, especially business owners, make decisions.

Man this is such a great point.  I"m sure it was Pegs telling Botts to make the move.  I'm not even going to string Terry up for that.  Can't blame him to be honest.

[Tondas]

2 minutes ago, Derrico said:

Man this is such a great point.  I"m sure it was Pegs telling Botts to make the move.  I'm not even going to string Terry up for that.  Can't blame him to be honest.

I can blame Terry.  He's a petroleum engineer telling a hockey expert which hockey player to trade.  Hire good hockey experts and let them work.  Terry has every right to tell Jbot, it's his team, but it's not the best way to run it.

[Randall Flagg]

3 hours ago, darksabre said:

If "everyone" knew O'Reilly was so good then they would have outbid St. Louis for him. They didn't though, did they?

We turned down better offers than what we got lol 

[nfreeman]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

We turned down better offers than what we got lol 

Such as?  Link?

[darksabre]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

Fair enough. I place plenty of blame on Pegula as well, for the record, but I recognize he's a novice that happens to have veto power. I honestly don't think Botterill knew exactly how much trading Eeyore was going to set the team back though.

I think this is fair.

The team was just as bad without O'Reilly as it was with him. Which means in some respects they must have improved, but not enough to overcome O'Reilly's absence. Which is on Jason.
 

[Randall Flagg]

21 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Such as?  Link?

Give me a minute. I have to go sift through a mountain of jame's posts on hf, he's the one I most recently remember recapping them. 

Off the top of my head, we supposedly turned down this guy straight up since we didn't want to pay the bonus:

 

Edit: the source is that Chad guy that Hoss is dubious about, so take that for what it's worth. Chad appears on WGR shows so he's not some idiot, but who knows what he really knows, but why would he lie too, is the thing.

The other trade was MTL: Poehling, Danault, 2nd. Poehling is going to be a stud and Danault >>> the NHL stuff we got. 

My only point is that our deal was not the best we could do, Botterill was just mistaken about the quality of the pieces he got, and assumed more was better. 

I also bet money that Chayka would have moved Domi for him straight up over galchenyuk since Chayka is an analytics nut and analytics saw through ROR's minus 23 and called him a Selke caliber player even in 17-18, but that's just me pontificating. And we know he was interested because there is video of him talking to Jason about ROR at the draft. I suspect Jason really just wanted volume, as that was the predominant narrative coming from the gossip guys.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Derrico]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Give me a minute. I have to go sift through a mountain of jame's posts on hf, he's the one I most recently remember recapping them. 

Off the top of my head, we supposedly turned down this guy straight up since we didn't want to pay the bonus:

What link says he was on the table other than Joe from Williamsville and John from HFboards?

[LTS]

Just now, Derrico said:

What link says he was on the table other than Joe from Williamsville and John from HFboards?

Damn.. give the man a minute.  He's been away for awhile.  His skills need time to recover.  

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, Derrico said:

What link says he was on the table other than Joe from Williamsville and John from HFboards?

That journalist named Chad who regularly appears on WGR. 

 

Just now, LTS said:

Damn.. give the man a minute.  He's been away for awhile.  His skills need time to recover.  

My fingers literally type slower now than they did six months ago because of this place lmao