2019-20 Sabres Prospects

[LGR4GM]

Why is Mitts a right wing? He's a center who shoots left. 

[triumph_communes]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I'm pissy because there are players we should have drafted and didn't. I'd rather build a well rounded team instead of using multiple draft picks on low end defenders when high forwards were sitting there available. Why are you so blind to the fact we draft like garbage? Is it because you think Botterill is great and his ideas are great? Is it because you started off believing we were drafting good under him and now you can't change your mind because of cognitive dissonance? Is that since I am not paid you believe the paid ppl because you are incapable of questioning their authority? What's your reasoning? Now, I am being pissy. 

It isn't hindsight. I reacted to most of these picks with these names and said wtf. I believe you famously said if my opinion counted for anything I would be paid for it. 

We DID draft like garbage, hence the rebuild.  Murray drafted even poorer.  Not one 2nd or beyond hit except for.... a 7th rounder!  Oh, and he traded away half of his firsts for busts as well.

 

Botterill?  WAY too soon for anyone to tell.  Please, tell me WHO in the 2018 draft Botterill should've picked instead in the 2nd round that would change anything right now?  I'll give you a hint, there's literally only one NHL goal scored by any forward picked in the 2nd round or later from the 2018 draft, so your argument is total *****.

Who should Botterill have chosen over Mittelstadt in 2017?  If you're going to name Thomas, keep in mind there were ELEVEN other GMs who passed on Thomas between them that have committed the 'oh so obvious mistake' that LGR4GM didn't make... like gosh.  Chytril?  TWELVE other GMs.  There's only THREE players after Mittelstadt who have even played a season's worth of games from the 2017 draft.

 

Saying Botterill is terrible at drafting is making a claim that you're a better scout than all the teams paid to do it.  It is TOO EARLY to tell.  And even the experts who try have the Sabres roughly in the top third of the league for prospect pools, which as this point is largely Botterill's doing.  Therere's TWENTY GMs that the experts are saying have been doing worse.

What do we have?  Not many forwards, but what has Botterill been doing so far?  Let's see:

Leading WHL scorer

Team USA captain (aka the bust)

OHL goalie of the year, WJC Gold starting goalie

3rd round boom bust prospects.. booming

18 yr olds

Oh and Mittelstadt, one of three guys drafted at his position or later that have played a season or more (all with similarish stats).  He may not live up to top-line LW expectations, but he's already played beyond bust category.

 

 

 

Why aren't you a GM?

Edited January 29, 2020 by triumph_communes

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

We DID draft like garbage, hence the rebuild.  Murray drafted even poorer.  Not one 2nd or beyond hit except for.... a 7th rounder!  Oh, and he traded away half of his firsts for busts as well.

 

Botterill?  WAY too soon for anyone to tell.  Please, tell me WHO in the 2018 draft Botterill should've picked instead in the 2nd round that would change anything right now?  I'll give you a hint, there's literally only one NHL goal scored by any forward picked in the 2nd round or later from the 2018 draft, so your argument is total *****.

Who should Botterill have chosen over Mittelstadt in 2017?  If you're going to name Thomas, keep in mind there were ELEVEN other GMs who passed on Thomas between them that have committed the 'oh so obvious mistake' that LGR4GM didn't make... like gosh.  Chytril?  TWELVE other GMs.  There's only THREE players after Mittelstadt who have even played a season's worth of games from the 2017 draft.

 

Saying Botterill is terrible at drafting is making a claim that you're a better scout than all the teams paid to do it.  It is TOO EARLY to tell.  And even the experts who try have the Sabres roughly in the top third of the league for prospect pools, which as this point is largely Botterill's doing.  Therere's TWENTY GMs that the experts are saying have been doing worse.

What do we have?  Not many forwards, but what has Botterill been doing so far?  Let's see:

Leading WHL scorer

Team USA captain (aka the bust)

OHL goalie of the year, WJC Gold starting goalie

3rd round boom bust prospects.. booming

18 yr olds

Oh and Mittelstadt, one of three guys drafted at his position or later that have played a season or more (all with similarish stats).  He may not live up to top-line LW expectations, but he's already played beyond bust category.

 

 

 

Why aren't you a GM?

Blindly follow along. It is what you are good at. 

[triumph_communes]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Blindly follow along. It is what you are good at. 

awww, I was looking forward to you actually putting meat behind your claims.  Good to know you're a windbag

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

awww, I was looking forward to you actually putting meat behind your claims.  Good to know you're a windbag

I have already done that but you are too dense to read it. Why should I do it a 2nd time? Just so you can ignore it again and continue being a follower. I know independent thought is hard so why don't you run along, Botterill called and he misses his lapdog. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by LGR4GM

[triumph_communes]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I have already done that but you are too dense to read it. Why should I do it a 2nd time? Just so you can ignore it again and continue being a follower. I know independent thought is hard so why don't you run along, Botterill called and he misses his lapdog. 

All you've done is listed out our current prospects and made bold claims they're all busts.

 

Not once have you listed an alternative player you would've picked that isn't a bust for the same draft pick.  Please, during Botterill's tenure, tell me who you would've picked instead that changes the outlook?

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

awww, I was looking forward to you actually putting meat behind your claims.  Good to know you're a windbag

Hell in your last alone you ignored what I was saying. You randomly started talking about Mittelstadt, a pick that made perfect sense at the time it was done. You also tossed in Cozens, I know exactly where Cozens was ranked on my list and I was happy we got him. Ignore the things I am discussing and ignore me. I don't get paid so go follow those who do so I can stop explaining to you why you are wrong. 

3 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

All you've done is listed out our current prospects and made bold claims they're all busts.

 

Not once have you listed an alternative player you would've picked that isn't a bust for the same draft pick.  Please, during Botterill's tenure, tell me who you would've picked instead that changes the outlook?

Are you ***** kidding me? Are you? I seriously want to know. I have done this multiple times for multiple picks. Go find it yourself. 

[triumph_communes]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Hell in your last alone you ignored what I was saying. You randomly started talking about Mittelstadt, a pick that made perfect sense at the time it was done. You also tossed in Cozens, I know exactly where Cozens was ranked on my list and I was happy we got him. Ignore the things I am discussing and ignore me. I don't get paid so go follow those who do so I can stop explaining to you why you are wrong. 

Ok, so where we're at:  You've claimed Botterill can't draft, yet you agree with all of his top-10 picks so far.  Given that graduated prospects 80% comes from the first round, there's going to be a large anchor required for the remaining 20% to wholly undermine Botterill's drafting record, but lets keep this going..

Tell me all the other picks that were bad and who you would've picked instead

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Ok, so where we're at:  You've claimed Botterill can't draft, yet you agree with all of his top-10 picks so far.  Given that graduated prospects 80% comes from the first round, there's going to be a large anchor required for the remaining 20% to wholly undermine Botterill's drafting record, but lets keep this going..

Tell me all the other picks that were bad and who you would've picked instead

I already have, you just don't pay attention. 

[LGR4GM]

I will do 2019 for you.

Ryan Johnson, should have been Hoglander, Roberston, Pinto, or Kaliyev

Eric Portillo, I don't hate this pick but I don't love it. Legare and Beaucage would also have been in the mix. 

Aaron Huglen, meh I would have looked too Case McCarthy or Dustin Wolf

Filip Cederqvist, not bad and actually a decent idea. No problem here, might have looked at Keean Washkurak

Lucas Rousek, overager, would have taken Marshall Warren. 

But I will give you this, I have the benefit of hindsight. I know who would go next. That gives me an unfair advantage. That said, the 2nd and 3rd round picks I would have looked elsewhere and mentioned so immediately. Portillo has grown on me as a pick. The rest, meh. I think they could have taken some other options. The rounds I dislike are 2-4 from the Sabres in bother 2018 and 2019. I will be curious to see what they do in 2020. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by LGR4GM

[triumph_communes]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I will do 2019 for you.

Ryan Johnson, should have been Hoglander, Roberston, Pinto, or Kaliyev

Eric Portillo, I don't hate this pick but I don't love it. Legare and Beaucage would also have been in the mix. 

Aaron Huglen, meh I would have looked too Case McCarthy or Dustin Wolf

Filip Cederqvist, not bad and actually a decent idea. No problem here, might have looked at Keean Washkurak

Lucas Rousek, overager, would have taken Marshall Warren. 

But I will give you this, I have the benefit of hindsight. I know who would go next. That gives me an unfair advantage. That said, the 2nd and 3rd round picks I would have looked elsewhere and mentioned so immediately. Portillo has grown on me as a pick. The rest, meh. I think they could have taken some other options. The rounds I dislike are 2-4 from the Sabres in bother 2018 and 2019. I will be curious to see what they do in 2020. 

rofl 2019. So you know SO much better than all these GMs

 

I want to know your 2017 picks. No 2019 picks matter for the next three years and have no impact on the team. 

[WildCard]

 

[dudacek]

Interesting with how often Tim Murray’s 2014 draft gets buried, the Athletic gives it an A-, behind just the Bruins and the Oilers.

Basically, two upper roster players in Samson and VO, an NHLer in Lemieux, and a guy who still has a slim chance in Johansson.

https://theathletic.com/1580591/2020/02/05/pronmans-final-grades-auditing-the-2014-nhl-draft/

[GASabresIUFAN]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Interesting with how often Tim Murray’s 2014 draft gets buried, the Athletic gives it an A-, behind just the Bruins and the Oilers.

Basically, two upper roster players in Samson and VO, an NHLer in Lemieux, and a guy who still has a slim chance in Johansson.

https://theathletic.com/1580591/2020/02/05/pronmans-final-grades-auditing-the-2014-nhl-draft/

The biggest issue with this draft was the length of time it look for VO to make an impact and he traded Lemieux away before he had a chance to add depth to our organization.  I will always wonder if TM hadn’t been in such a hurray and kept our picks, would we be having depth issues now?

[Weave]

43 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The biggest issue with this draft was the length of time it look for VO to make an impact and he traded Lemieux away before he had a chance to add depth to our organization.  I will always wonder if TM hadn’t been in such a hurray and kept our picks, would we be having depth issues now?

We didn't have enough NHL capable players and we had no veterans for our young kids.  TM didn't have the luxury of patience.  He needed to fill a roster with players good enough to allow the tank fruit to develop.  He had to give up assets to do it.  Otherwise we would have been dressing Mezaros and Neidermayer again.

You can make a good argument that he traded assets for the wrong players.  That's legit.  But that's also not the argument being made here.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Weave

[GASabresIUFAN]

9 minutes ago, Weave said:

We didn't have enough NHL capable players and we had no veterans for our young kids.  TM didn't have the luxury of patience.  He needed to fill a roster with players good enough to allow the tank fruit to develop.  He had to give up assets to do it.  Otherwise we would have been dressing Mezaros and Neidermayer again.

You can make a good argument that he traded assets for the wrong players.  That's legit.  But that's also not the argument being made here.

He had no cap concerns.  He didn’t have to rush. he could have signed vets to help the kids along and suffer for a couple of more years as the kids matured.  Instead he tried to rush the process and it’s failed.  It gave us a bad team in cap hell while sacrificing our organizational depth that we are still trying to dig out from.

[Weave]

33 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He had no cap concerns.  He didn’t have to rush. he could have signed vets to help the kids along and suffer for a couple of more years as the kids matured.  Instead he tried to rush the process and it’s failed.  It gave us a bad team in cap hell while sacrificing our organizational depth that we are still trying to dig out from.

What vets was he going to sign off the street?  The guys that would sign at the end of the tank were the same type of players we've complained about at the bottom of our roster for years.  Washed up junk and barely ever was'.  The only way we get talent like Kane, ROR, and Lehner is by giving up assets.  Otherwise it's more of Strachan, Mezaros, Dalpe, Carlo Colaiacovo, and Erod.  Let's not forget that this team still hasn't risen back to the high water mark that TM's team rose to after the tank. 

And letting kids suffer for another couple of years is a lousy way to develop them.  There is a reason JBott has prioritized getting a winning team in Rochester.  It's a huge development aid to put them in positions to succeed.  Putting players in position to fail gets you players that lose their love for the game.  I can't believe this isn't self evident.

I don't buy that we are in cap hell.  I don't buy that there are moves to be made now that our cap situation is keeping from happening.  The moves aren't there.  And if they are there good teams find a way to make them.  Every year we proclaim surprise at what team X did at the deadline given their cap. 

Coming out of the tank the cupboards were BARE.  FA's that would sign to an all time bad team were basically junk.   Real players required real assets get moved.  Murray's strategy didn't fail.  The idea that we could crawl out of a 0 depth situation with half a roster is what failed.  Punch Imlach reincarnated was going to fail.  Scotty Bowman would have failed.  Lou Lamoriello would have failed.  It was a flawed plan, not a flawed execution.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Weave

[LGR4GM]

It was flawed execution. It was always going to take a little time to recover. Fire selling the youth for veterans ***** the future while putting a bandaid on the present. Welcome back to the future. 

[#freejame]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The biggest issue with this draft was the length of time it look for VO to make an impact and he traded Lemieux away before he had a chance to add depth to our organization.  I will always wonder if TM hadn’t been in such a hurray and kept our picks, would we be having depth issues now?

Lemieux’s agent said he wouldn’t sign in Buffalo. I believe he wasn’t even under contract at the time of the trade, we simply controlled his rights. 

[LGR4GM]

 

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by LGR4GM

[WildCard]

Nothing we can do about it now Liger

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, WildCard said:

Nothing we can do about it now Liger

I know. But as I was told several times that I don't know what I am talking about in regards to drafting, I figured what the hell, why not mention it. 

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I know. But as I was told several times that I don't know what I am talking about in regards to drafting, I figured what the hell, why not mention it. 

While I respect your opinion and in depth analysis, a guy tearing up the OHL is hardly vindication. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I know. But as I was told several times that I don't know what I am talking about in regards to drafting, I figured what the hell, why not mention it. 

Who was it in the '84-'85 season that had 66?

[GASabresIUFAN]

As to Robertson.  The Sabres didn’t have a second rd pick.  He went 53rd to the Leafs. When you go 53rd it means most teams in the NHL past on you once and sometimes twice.  It’s not like he was a sure fire 1st rd pick or talent.

I went back and looked at my draft list.  I had Robertson 32nd.  Behind Kaliyev, Pinto and Brink. If the Sabres had gone with a forward at 31, my guess is that they would have grabbed one of those three ahead of Robertson.  It will be interesting to see how smallish Robertson does once he starts playing Pro hockey.

As to Robertson, other forward vs Johnson; Johnson was not a left field pick.  He was 40th on my board with 1st rd grades from many of the analysts I follow, including the hockey news and McKeens. Robertson was ranked significantly behind Johnson on both of those lists.  

Without a 2nd rd pick and given the higher ranked forwards that slipped in the draft, Robertson was never going to be a Sabres unless he fell into the 3rd rd.

Edited February 7, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN