2019-2020 Lineup

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Yup. Botterill doesn't have to make any more moves if he doesn't want to. As it stands today:

Dahlin - Montour

McCabe - Ristolainen

Scandella - Miller

(Scratched - Nelson

AHL - Jokiharju

IR - Pilut, Bogosian)

---

Ideally Ristolainen is moved for a forward, and Jokiharju can swap in for Risto and probably improve the defense as a result. Once Pilut draws back in we are looking at what looks to be to be a very solid, puck-moving unit:

Dahlin - Miller

Pilut - Montour

McCabe - Jokiharju

---

...but with Pilut unlikely to start the season, I do see an opening and need for Jake Gardiner, in an ideal world. If not, we are looking at Scandella unfortunately still playing on our left side. 

Dahlin - Miller

Gardiner - Montour

McCabe - Jokiharju

That's a good looking D. 

 

 

Ah, you had me until Gardiner.

[#freejame]

Neither Montour or Miller are top pairing D men. Montour is a 3/4 and Miller is 4/5. Joker has a better chance of developing into a 2/3 than either of those two have of providing better defense than Risto at 25 minutes. 

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, #freejame said:

Neither Montour or Miller are top pairing D men. Montour is a 3/4 and Miller is 4/5. Joker has a better chance of developing into a 2/3 than either of those two have of providing better defense than Risto at 25 minutes. 

But Miller on the powerplay, with that 105 mph slapper? (Yes, he cracked Iafrate range in an AHL all-star game.)  Might be worth it.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Eleven

[inkman]

Chicks dig a hard PP Slapper

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

But Miller on the powerplay, with that 105 mph slapper? (Yes, he cracked Iafrate range in an AHL all-star game.)  Might be worth it.

He’s an interesting add. He’s certainly not someone you want out there against Marchand or Tavares, but he’s been dominant as a five.

I’m curious to see where he fits in on the PP. He’s not one of our five best players, but he might be the best at playing the top of the umbrella. I can see him being very effective in a Jason Woolley role as a 3rd pair/PP specialist.

Really, they’re clearly trying to assemble a fast-break blueline and it will be interested to see how it works, with what might be the most mobile, least gritty defence corps ever assembled in Buffalo.

Edited August 29, 2019 by dudacek

[Eleven]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

, least gritty defence corps ever assembled in Buffalo.

And there's the scary part.  They need McCabe and one of Bogosian or Ristolainen.

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, Eleven said:

And there's the scary part.  They need McCabe and one of Bogosian or Ristolainen.

I tend to agree, but we’re old school.

There’s a chance we could be at the head of the curve going all in with this style. 

Krug and Grelczyk? Makar and Girard? Hamilton, Falk and Slavin?

Karlsson and Burns? Some teams having some pretty good success with these kind of guys over the Bogosian types.

Edited August 29, 2019 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, Eleven said:

And there's the scary part.  They need McCabe and one of Bogosian or Ristolainen.

Why? This comes up so often and yet I never receive an answer that makes any sense. Just some vague references to grit and playoffs. Zone exits are more strongly correlated to winning than hits. 

[LGR4GM]

For example why does Dahlin need a Bogo or a Risto? What if Miller, Montour, and Jokiharju are better defenders but less gritty, should we get rid of one of them because of that? 

[Eleven]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Why? This comes up so often and yet I never receive an answer that makes any sense. Just some vague references to grit and playoffs. Zone exits are more strongly correlated to winning than hits. 

 

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

For example why does Dahlin need a Bogo or a Risto? What if Miller, Montour, and Jokiharju are better defenders but less gritty, should we get rid of one of them because of that? 

No.  You've got a nice set of four defensemen there.  One of the others should be a guy who is able to put lumber in the back of whomever is screening or otherwise disturbing a goaltender.  Winning teams have that guy, or, more likely, two of them.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Eleven

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Eleven said:

 

No.  You've got a nice set of four defensemen there.  One of the others should be a guy who is able to put lumber in the back of whomever is screening or otherwise disturbing a goaltender.  Winning teams have that guy, or, more likely, two of them.

Why can't those guys do that? Why shouldn't 6'3" 195lb Rasmus Dahlin learn to move guys from in front of his net? Why wouldn't the feisty Jokiharju? In todays NHL you need more from a defender than just that. Jake McCabe is probably the closest thing to a modern "shutdown" defender but the league is changing, we are going to see 5 man attacks with the defenders heavily involved in the play. It is the natural evolution of what Ruff did when he talked about defenders pitching. Now they won't just pinch and punch it back behind the net, they will take it there themselves. On the defensive side, skating and zone exits are going to be king. It is great that you disrupted the screen but tips are more deadly than point shots, so it is more important to lock down their stick than cross check them 20 times. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

 

No.  You've got a nice set of four defensemen there.  One of the others should be a guy who is able to put lumber in the back of whomever is screening or otherwise disturbing a goaltender.  Winning teams have that guy, or, more likely, two of them.

Yep.  It's good to have some variety in what skills (and playing physical is a skill) the team has to keep from getting killed by bad match ups or to be ready when a situation calls for it.

Having your 5 & / or 6 slightly different than 1-4 isn't necessarily a bad thing.  And if Dahlin ends up what he's supposed to be, it might even make sense to pair him occasionally or even typically W/ the 5 like LA used to do w/ McNabb & Doughty.

[LGR4GM]

I am not saying we can't have those guys but that should never be a determining factor for who gets playing time. 

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Yep.  It's good to have some variety in what skills (and playing physical is a skill) the team has to keep from getting killed by bad match ups or to be ready when a situation calls for it.

Having your 5 & / or 6 slightly different than 1-4 isn't necessarily a bad thing.  And if Dahlin ends up what he's supposed to be, it might even make sense to pair him occasionally or even typically W/ the 5 like LA used to do w/ McNabb & Doughty.

I think it makes the most sense to pair him with Jokiharju. Both can skate and pass very well. Both smart players. 

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think it makes the most sense to pair him with Jokiharju. Both can skate and pass very well. Both smart players. 

When Jokiharju is ready for top line duty, that is very possible.  But it would be very risky at present as it isn't even a given that Dahlin will be ready to be the #1 right out of the gate.

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

When Jokiharju is ready for top line duty, that is very possible.  But it would be very risky at present as it isn't even a given that Dahlin will be ready to be the #1 right out of the gate.

I will bet that Dahlin is ready to be #1 right out of the gate. He was the #1 at the end of last season and he will only be better after 4 months of mental and physical maturity. 

[LGR4GM]

It is weird to me. Eichel was called the 2nd coming and pumped up and adored. Mittelstadt last summer was given similar treatment. There was a clear bandwagon of people who believed they were going to breakout that coming season or at least be big contributors and be able to play 1c or 2c. With Dahlin, there is talk of him being maybe first pairing this year and some talk of him getting 45 points... the kid has no foreseeable ceiling. He can be 1st ballot hall of fame name on the cup and multiple Norris trophies good. I have no doubt he will be the #1 defender this season for Buffalo. it is everyone else jockeying for position behind him. 

[SwampD]

44 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Why? This comes up so often and yet I never receive an answer that makes any sense. Just some vague references to grit and playoffs. Zone exits are more strongly correlated to winning than hits. 

This is true, but who was talking about hits?

Edited August 29, 2019 by SwampD

[LGR4GM]

15 hours ago, Thorny said:

Yup. Botterill doesn't have to make any more moves if he doesn't want to. As it stands today:

Dahlin - Montour

McCabe - Ristolainen

Scandella - Miller

(Scratched - Nelson

AHL - Jokiharju

IR - Pilut, Bogosian)

---

Ideally Ristolainen is moved for a forward, and Jokiharju can swap in for Risto and probably improve the defense as a result. Once Pilut draws back in we are looking at what looks to be to be a very solid, puck-moving unit:

Dahlin - Miller

Pilut - Montour

McCabe - Jokiharju

---

...but with Pilut unlikely to start the season, I do see an opening and need for Jake Gardiner, in an ideal world. If not, we are looking at Scandella unfortunately still playing on our left side. 

Dahlin - Miller

Gardiner - Montour

McCabe - Jokiharju

That's a good looking D. 

 

 

Pilut is a vital component to this team. Unless Scandella magically comes back to life under Krueger. 

2 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Who was talking about hits?

It is referenced often in regards to physicality. 

[darksabre]

I'm just gonna say it: I wouldn't be shocked to see Bogo back next year on a cheap deal if his recovery takes.

[SwampD]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

 

It is referenced often in regards to physicality. 

I know. It's just annoying that its all that some people (not just you) mention when talking about physicality. It's even more annoying when some people completely disregard physicality as if it plays no part in winning (not that you did that.)

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I'm just gonna say it: I wouldn't be shocked to see Bogo back next year on a cheap deal if his recovery takes.

This. You can’t go too heavy on the kids and you do need an element of moose.

mcCabe/Bogo with Borgen coming

Montour/Miller with Pilut and Jokiharju coming

That should be a well-balanced corps around Dahlin next year.

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I know. It's just annoying that its all that some people (not just you) mention when talking about physicality. It's even more annoying when some people completely disregard physicality as if it plays no part in winning (not that you did that.)

True and a valid point. Battles along the wall and behind the net also are physical parts of the game an very important to winning. 

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It is weird to me. Eichel was called the 2nd coming and pumped up and adored. Mittelstadt last summer was given similar treatment. There was a clear bandwagon of people who believed they were going to breakout that coming season or at least be big contributors and be able to play 1c or 2c. With Dahlin, there is talk of him being maybe first pairing this year and some talk of him getting 45 points... the kid has no foreseeable ceiling. He can be 1st ballot hall of fame name on the cup and multiple Norris trophies good. I have no doubt he will be the #1 defender this season for Buffalo. it is everyone else jockeying for position behind him. 

Eichel also has his detractors and has had them nearly since day 1.

As near as I can tell, nobody is dissing Dahlin.  EVERYBODY expects him to be truly special.  And he is truly good right now.  But he is 19 and still learning & growing.  And, though you believe he was the Sabres top D man at the end of last season, even the Sabres considered his to be the 2nd pairing in 6 of the final 7 games and he got almost 0 PK time the entire year.

He definitely ran out of some steam down the stretch.  He'd have a couple bad give aways each game that weren't happening earlier and was still having issues with odd man rushes.  And that isn't saying he didn't do a LOT of good things.  He did.  There's a reason he was runner up in the Calder voting.  He earned that.

But, were he to walk away today, he isn't a HoFer nor has he been considered for a Norris nor even played a single meaningful NHL game post December.  Wouldn't be surprised if by the end of this season, he is their top D-man, but probably wouldn't put money on it.  (The following year, that's another story. ? ). And, will wait until he actually gets time on the PK before annointing him the 1.

I'd say Montour was the best D-man after he arrived, but there may be some new toy glow still on that opinion.  Let's see how he does full year.

 

And, as for Mittelstadt, my views on Mitts have been stated enough.

[darksabre]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This. You can’t go too heavy on the kids and you do need an element of moose.

mcCabe/Bogo with Borgen coming

Montour/Miller with Pilut and Jokiharju coming

That should be a well-balanced corps around Dahlin next year.

People around here will ***** a brick but I think, despite his injury plagued career, most GMs would see him as a good value add for the third pairing. Get him on a 2 x 2 deal and get him under 20 minutes a night and you're not going to worry too much about his injuries.