2019-2020 Lineup

[WildCard]

14 hours ago, Taro T said:

Really expecting at least 1 more move.  

For now, anticipating that Vesey gets pencilledin with Eichel & Skinner and that Johansson gets 1st crack at 2C.  But it just looks like Botterill is building up assets to trade for either a true 2C or a true 2RW.

With no additional major move, would expect

Skinner - Eichel - Vesey

Olofsson - Johansson - Reinhart

Sheary - Mittelstadt - Rodrigues

Girgensons - Larsson - Okposo

Press box - Wilson

McCabe - Montour

Dahlin - Miller

Bogosian - Ristolainen

Press box - Pilut, Scandella

Which would have Hunwick, Borgen, Elie, Thompson, Asplund, Nylander, & Sobotka assigned to Ra-cha-cha along with Lazar and the other recent signings along with Hickey & Redmond.  Do Borgen, Thompson, Asplund, &/or Nylander need to clear waivers to go down?

Just seems like they have too much tweener talent and moving a couple of guys like Sheary, Ristolainen, & a prospect would be a goal of Botterill to add to that 2nd line.  Don't know if that would get a move made, but have to believe Botterill's trying for something like that.

Problem is, Vesey - Sheary - Skinner are all so bad defensively, you really have to separate them IMO

[Randall Flagg]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

  

I am in favour of adding a fast winger on an expiring contract who goes to the net and has consistently put up 15-20 goals, at the cost of a 3rd rounder. Depth breeds competition, depth overcomes injuries and slumps, depth creates options.This team is woefully short of mid-roster players and I’ll take as many lotto tickets as I can.

But that comes with the caveat that the depth has the ability to contribute at an NHL level, as opposed to a Pouliot-style placeholder who is going to be out of the league in a year.

On the surface, Vesey seems more the former than the latter, but as I said earlier, I have only a very superficial knowledge of the player. If you think he is just another Pouliot that our hockey department has improperly identified as something greater then I agree with your conclusion. If he has a chance to be another Conor Sheary - and I’ve been disappointed with Sheary - I’ll make the trade every time.

How the investment might marry the team to the player doesn’t worry me in the slightest, even disregarding the possibility that Krueger might be as inflexible as Housley was.

It’s a 3rd rounder. GMs toss them around like frisbees.

 

I like the principle of Sheary and Scandella trades too, but the fact remains that I'm comfortable with exactly three Sabres NHL forwards in more than marginal roles on winning teams, and when we keep adding to the pile of ones I'm uncomfortable stating the same, it starts to get a bit tiresome, especially as the pitchforks are starting to come out on the good players (one already gone, and the spotlight on other three are coming shortly whether it's their fault or not (and it won't be, given all roster considerations these 5 seasons)) because of this other stuff not being nearly good enough. 

I get that Sobotka sucks and Brassard may well be better, but that doesn't mean I have any interest in trying to make that trade. I feel the same about Vesey and a hundred other NHL players. Hindsight tells me that about Sheary, ESPECIALLY since Bott's lack of inclination to waive vets (or even worse - an actual appreciation of Hunwick's game) meant I had to watch a bunch of Matt Hunwick as well. 

You talk about constant incremental improvement, but I don't think hockey works that way with the type of players we're talking about. You rapidly hit a ceiling on what your team can do if you only make moves like this (not saying we are), and that ceiling is not a playoff team, it's whatever you'd expect from a lineup of Jimmy Veseys, Conor Shearys, Patrik Berglunds, Vlad Sobotkas (because these two were sold to us the same way by the same people and posters this time last year). There comes a point where I'm not interested, and that point is right now. I'm not bitching that Vesey is here, but let's not do any more of this, because the lineup is now full enough with this kind of player that any additional Vesey or Sheary trade will essentially be a lateral move at best. And it's moved us from a 78 point team to a ...76 point team with a win streak after two years, and the current roster looks like a 78-82 point team. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, TrueBlueGED said:

I'll never understand the Sheary disappointment unless you expected him to produce like he did when skating with Sidney Crosby. 

I’m not overly disappointed with his production overall, but I can’t understand anyone not being disappointed in the fact he put up 1 goal in a 40 game stretch where the team was crumbling and desperate for secondary scoring. It’s not like he was creating and just not finishing, he was positively Sobotka-esque in being Death Valley for offence.

Beyond that, I expected a better forechecker and a guy who would create more chances through his speed and I expected a guy who was more tenacious on the puck. He rarely separated his man from the puck and seemed to lose more battles than any other Sabre. If he wasn’t scoring, he wasn’t bringing much.

He was an NHL hockey player when producing but brought nothing to the table when he wasn’t.

Bringing it back to the fact this is the Vesey thread, if Vesey is essentially a clone, then I am still OK with that, because it’s still an improvement over what Sobotka and Thompson and Wilson and probably Pominville brought to the middle six.

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I like the principle of Sheary and Scandella trades too, but the fact remains that I'm comfortable with exactly three Sabres NHL forwards in more than marginal roles on winning teams, and when we keep adding to the pile of ones I'm uncomfortable stating the same, it starts to get a bit tiresome, especially as the pitchforks are starting to come out on the good players (one already gone, and the spotlight on other three are coming shortly whether it's their fault or not (and it won't be, given all roster considerations these 5 seasons)) because of this other stuff not being nearly good enough. 

I get that Sobotka sucks and Brassard may well be better, but that doesn't mean I have any interest in trying to make that trade. I feel the same about Vesey and a hundred other NHL players. Hindsight tells me that about Sheary, ESPECIALLY since Bott's lack of inclination to waive vets (or even worse - an actual appreciation of Hunwick's game) meant I had to watch a bunch of Matt Hunwick as well. 

You talk about constant incremental improvement, but I don't think hockey works that way with the type of players we're talking about. You rapidly hit a ceiling on what your team can do if you only make moves like this (not saying we are), and that ceiling is not a playoff team, it's whatever you'd expect from a lineup of Jimmy Veseys, Conor Shearys, Patrik Berglunds, Vlad Sobotkas (because these two were sold to us the same way by the same people and posters this time last year). There comes a point where I'm not interested, and that point is right now. I'm not bitching that Vesey is here, but let's not do any more of this, because the lineup is now full enough with this kind of player that any additional Vesey or Sheary trade will essentially be a lateral move at best. And it's moved us from a 78 point team to a ...76 point team with a win streak after two years, and the current roster looks like a 78-82 point team. 

This post sure seems to be packing a lot of baggage from the O’Reilly trade.

What was wrong with that trade was not that we acquired three lottery tickets and two pieces of filler. It was the fact we gave up a difference maker to do so.

It would be nice if we could pull off another Skinner trade, but it’s OK to make deals along the margins until one comes along.

The 99 Sabres went to the finals with a captain acquired as a lottery ticket when we dumped off a star and roster built on ho-hum trades and signings:

Ruuttu (indirectly) for Hasek

Barnaby for Barnes

Wilson for Warrener

May for Sanderson

A 5th for Woolley 

Moore and Miller for Satan

Muni for Shannon and Grosek

Varada was a lottery ticket from the Bodger sell-off

Patrick and Ward were cheap free agents

Even though it seems likely I will grow to enjoy his play as much as I enjoy that of Vlad and Conor, I don’t think acquiring Jimmy Vesey is going to break us. And it might even help us.

You know that despite the O’Reilly debacle and the moves of a coach you consider a certified idiot, the team still improved by 14 points, right? ?

[TrueBlueGED]

Just now, dudacek said:

This post sure seems to be packing a lot of baggage from the O’Reilly trade.

What was wrong with that trade was not that we acquired three lottery tickets and two pieces of filler. It was the fact we gave up a difference maker to do so.

It would be nice if we could pull off another Skinner trade, but it’s OK to make deals along the margins until one comes along.

The 99 Sabres went to the finals with a captain acquired as a lottery ticket when we dumped off a star and roster built on ho-hum trades and signings:

Ruuttu (indirectly) for Hasek

Barnaby for Barnes

Wilson for Warrener

May for Sanderson

A 5th for Woolley 

Moore and Miller for Satan

Muni for Shannon and Grosek

Varada was a lottery ticket from the Bodger sell-off

Patrick and Ward were cheap free agents

Even though it seems likely I will grow to enjoy his play as much as I enjoy that of Vlad and Conor, I don’t think acquiring Jimmy Vesey is going to break us. And it might even help us.

You know that despite the O’Reilly debacle and the moves of a coach you consider a certified idiot, the team still improved by 14 points, right? ?

Shouldn't the bar be where the team was when Botterill was hired, not where it was after he inadvertently captained it into the toilet year 1? I'm assuming that's why you have the emoji, but still, there are people who really think progress has been made. 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Shouldn't the bar be where the team was when Botterill was hired, not where it was after he inadvertently captained it into the toilet year 1? I'm assuming that's why you have the emoji, but still, there are people who really think progress has been made. 

The bar for Botterill, sure.

I thought we were talking about the efficacy of trading a third for Vesey.

[dudacek]

I guess where I am is that even though I don’t like the player, I am OK with the move.

Edited July 8, 2019 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This post sure seems to be packing a lot of baggage from the O’Reilly trade.

What was wrong with that trade was not that we acquired three lottery tickets and two pieces of filler. It was the fact we gave up a difference maker to do so.

It would be nice if we could pull off another Skinner trade, but it’s OK to make deals along the margins until one comes along.

The 99 Sabres went to the finals with a captain acquired as a lottery ticket when we dumped off a star and roster built on ho-hum trades and signings:

Ruuttu (indirectly) for Hasek

Barnaby for Barnes

Wilson for Warrener

May for Sanderson

A 5th for Woolley 

Moore and Miller for Satan

Muni for Shannon and Grosek

Varada was a lottery ticket from the Bodger sell-off

Patrick and Ward were cheap free agents

Even though it seems likely I will grow to enjoy his play as much as I enjoy that of Vlad and Conor, I don’t think acquiring Jimmy Vesey is going to break us. And it might even help us.

You know that despite the O’Reilly debacle and the moves of a coach you consider a certified idiot, the team still improved by 14 points, right? ?

Being 100% honest here - the ROR trade was as far from my mind as the price of toilet paper in Cuba while I was making that post. I'd be happy to find the posts where that exact same justification was made though, because it happened a thousand times over, and one of the two guys was a major reason why we sucked so bad anyway, so it really isn't always the case that these moves are good for the team even if it seems like it at the time.

And as far as your last point goes - I'm aware of the standings improvement of last season's team to the one before, but it's that type of squinting and broad-brush-painting that makes a team continue to be awful, and people who look at things moreobjectively continue to make predictions like usage-tweaking the "cancer" leading to 75 point Selke seasons, or nailing down the final standings points within 1 correctly before the season starts ?  . Is that really how you'd like to analyze things? keeping coaching equal, it's really replacing a Selke caliber 2C with the worst center depth situation in the league that led to the improvement? That's the implication of all of the information you chose to include in that sentence. It wasn't a stretch of goaltending that we haven't seen in years, during an early part of the schedule, after which we were the worst team in the NHL still for about 60 games? A stretch in which the math shows that a return to previous season's goaltending would have made the results indistinguishable from the previous season in the standings as well? A stretch in which every metric said we were the worst in the league at generating and preventing chances? It had nothing to do with our most important player being paired with a 40 goal player that wasn't here the year before, a pairing that finally made him a net positive player in all meaningful areas, instead of a winger that scored less and with which Eichel paired to be one of the worst goals-against duos out there? A fourth line that went from tank-level bad Jordan Nolan and Pouliot and Josefson to actually getting ***** done? The addition of THREE puck moving defensemen that are all better than 4 of the regular defensemen we saw the previous season? Let's employ some nuance here duda 

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I guess where I am is that even though I don’t like the player, I am OK with the move.

I was okay with the first four times we made moves to do things like this, but I have a suspicion that Vesey is worse at hockey than Sheary, and that our needs have moved far past the point of needing to "upgrade" what will probably actually be Sheary's spot with Jimmy Vesey 

[dudacek]

The way I look at it is that Johansson and Vesey are probably better than Sobotka and Thompson and could therefore improve our starting 12, just like Miller and Montour are probably better than Beaulieu and Scandella or whoever gets dropped into the 7 slot to make room.

I get that we’d be better off grabbing top six players than bottom six players, but I don’t see why it’s wrong to improve our bottom six. Grabbing Sheary didn’t stop Botterill from grabbing Skinner

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

 

I was okay with the first four times we made moves to do things like this, but I have a suspicion that Vesey is worse at hockey than Sheary, and that our needs have moved far past the point of needing to "upgrade" what will probably actually be Sheary's spot with Jimmy Vesey 

This probably better represents what I meant with the baggage comment: I’m tired of Botterill acquiring players that don’t end up making a difference too.

As for the rest of your post, it seems to be about Vesey only tangentially, in that you are sick of acquiring Veseys and want more Skinners. Me too.

Edited July 8, 2019 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The way I look at it is that Johansson and Vesey are probably better than Sobotka and Thompson and could therefore improve our starting 12, just like Miller and Montour are probably better than Beaulieu and Scandella or whoever gets dropped into the 7 slot to make room.

I get that we’d be better off grabbing top six players than bottom six players, but I don’t see why it’s wrong to improve our bottom six. Grabbing Sheary didn’t stop Botterill from grabbing Skinner

Cuz this may well not have happened and we may now have more evidence than before that Botts' pro talent evaluation is whack 

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Cuz this may well not have happened and we may now have more evidence than before that Botts' pro talent evaluation is whack 

You’ve been away for awhile, but I have been very vocal in making this criticism of Botts.

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by dudacek

[TrueBlueGED]

6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Cuz this may well not have happened and we may now have more evidence than before that Botts' pro talent evaluation is whack 

 

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

You’ve been away for awhile, but I have been very vocal in making this criticism of Botts.

This is the crux of it to me. I don't have problems with Botterill trying to improve the depth of the team, but there are very real questions about whether his moves actually do that.

[dudacek]

I find I get bogged down in the details sometimes (was it a good idea to acquire Jimmy Vesey) and what I actually think about the team gets lost.

I think Jack Eichel is an elite talent who gets unfairly blamed around here for the failures of the roster around him. He checks all the boxes. The criticisms of his maturity were fair but he answered them positively for me last year. He stands up well against the league’s other top young centres and I am perfectly happy with him as our franchise centre. Signing him to his current contract is probably Botterill’s best and certainly his most underrated move.

Jeff Skinner surprised me with his tenacity and his ability to come up big in clutch situations last year. He is terrible at passing the puck and setting up his linemates and not a particular good weapon on the PP, but his job is to score goals and he is among the best in the league at that role and he continues to create even when the puck isn’t going in. He is a puckhound whose ability to harass opponents is too frequently dismissed. I think it is unfair to not give Botterill credit for acquiring him as cheaply as he did. It was an outstanding trade. I think Botterill got played on his contract. He overpaid by about $1 million and he probably didn’t have to. That said, keeping him was essential, even if it meant an overpay.

My love for Sam Reinhart is well-known in these parts. His shot is meh, but the rest of his physical skills are understated and underrated. He’s always in the right place and always moving the puck to the right places at the right times. There is no one better on this team at getting to pucks along the boards, protecting them and then making a good play and there is no one better at seeing all 10 guys on the ice and exploiting what they are doing. He is also one tough, durable hockey player who never hesitates to take a pounding in the high traffic areas to make a play. I think he is miscast as Eichel’s netfront sidekick because even though he does that well, he has more to give. I am encouraged with the recent talk about him being asked to drive the second line because I think he has another level I hope Ralph can tap. I want the puck in his hands. Botterill’s decision to bridge him was shortsighted.

I don’t think they should play together, but I do think we can win a cup with these three as our first line.

Edited July 8, 2019 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

25 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I find I get bogged down in the details sometimes (was it a good idea to acquire Jimmy Vesey) and what I actually think about the team gets lost.

I think Jack Eichel is an elite talent who gets unfairly blamed around here for the failures of the roster around him. He checks all the boxes. The criticisms of his maturity were fair but he answered them positively for me last year. He stands up well against the league’s other top young centres and I am perfectly happy with him as our franchise centre. Signing him to his current contract is probably Botterill’s best and certainly his most underrated move.

Jeff Skinner surprised me with his tenacity and his ability to come up big in clutch situations last year. He is terrible at passing the puck and setting up his linemates and not a particular good weapon on the PP, but his job is to score goals and he is among the best in the league at that role and he continues to create even when the puck isn’t going in. He is a puckhound whose ability to harass opponents is too frequently dismissed. I think it is unfair to not give Botterill credit for acquiring him as cheaply as he did. It was an outstanding trade. I think Botterill got played on his contract. He overpaid by about $1 million and he probably didn’t have to. That said, keeping him was essential, even if it meant an overpay.

 My love for Sam Reinhart is well-known in these parts. His shot is meh, but the rest of his physical skills are understated and underrated. He’s always in the right place and always moving the puck to the right places at the right times. There is no one better on this team at getting to pucks along the boards, protecting them and then making a good play and there is no one better at seeing all 10 guys on the ice and exploiting what they are doing. He is also one tough, durable hockey player who never hesitates to take a pounding in the high traffic areas to make a play. I think he is miscast as Eichel’s netfront sidekick because even though he does that well, he has more to give. I am encouraged with the recent talk about him being asked to drive the second line because I think he has another level I hope Ralph can tap. I want the puck in his hands. Botterill’s decision to bridge him was shortsighted.

 I don’t think they should play together, but I do think we can win a cup with these three as our first line.

I completely agree with every single word and wish I could sum it up like that. 

You know what situation is coming up on the horizon in my ongoing Sabre nightmare that has been the last two to six seasons? Going into this season as constructed, finishing with 78 points like this roster might suggest, and then deciding to move the third player you talk about for more culture purposes as a result. 

[triumph_communes]

Given the interview responses, I feel like it's more likely that Johansson ends up playing center.  Whether Mittelstadt or Johansson get more minutes (being the true 2nd or 3rd line) will just depend on how they play, but I expect a much improved Mittelstadt and for that line to get sheltered the most anyway:

 

Skinner-Eichel-Rodrigues/Thompson/Nylander

Sheary-Mittelstadt-Reinhart

Smith/Oloffson/Rodrigues/Nylander-Johansson-Vesey

Girgensons-Larsson-Okposo

 

I think any combination of LW/RW really works in this Top-9, except that Reinhart needs to be kept away from Eichel.

 

One thing to keep in mind about Krueger:  He will keep lines together to a fault, as he believes as certain pairings face adversity they learn together.  Different philosophy as our last few coach's.  I'm not sure how far into the season it will be until he settles on his lines though.

Edited July 8, 2019 by triumph_communes

[dudacek]

The good news is Botterill may have doubled our collection of middle-six forwards this summer.

The bad news is we still only have four of them, three are complementary guys, and the one true 2nd liner is brittle and not suited to being a fourth forward.

I don’t like Marcus Johansson’s play in traffic, but he can be very effective on the perimeter and excels on the rush. Nice smarts, nice hands, nice feet and he can execute at high speeds. He looked good in the playoffs after two years of looking not so good. I think he could be very effective as Jack’s sidekick, or driving offence against bottom pairing defencemen. I fear he will be in over his head if he is asked to centre a 2nd line, particularly with lesser wingers. He’s not really a centre and not really an alpha. I hope he can stay healthy. But he is a genuine second-tier talent added to a roster that desperately needed some. A nice signing by Botterill at a price well worth the gamble.

I really hope Kyle Okposo can find a comfort zone in the level of player he is now rather than the player he thinks he should be. He needs to discover that less can be more and reinvent his game in the back half of his career. He puts far too much pressure on himself to create with his body when he should be letting the puck do the work for him. He’s obviously lumbering through the neutral zone, but he’s still a big man with good power, a solid wrist shot and a good passer in the O-zone when he’s in the right headspace. I like his work ethic, and think he can still put up 15 goals and 30-40 points if he adopts a more Pominville approach to the game. I know I’m in the minority in this, but I also think he can still be useful on the power play. He’s illsuited to the game the Sabres want to play, but I look at what Pat Maroon did and can hope. Not much Botterill can do here except guide him into the right role.

I’ve talked Vesey to death upthread. He’s got NHL feet and an NHL frame and can score goals but his game has been less than the sum of his parts. Hopefully, his pending UFA status, and/or chemistry with Jack of Sam can catch lightning in a bottle. Worth Botterill’s gamble of a 3rd round pick

Like Vesey, I talked Sheary a lot up-thread and like Vesey he is a soft, inconsistent one-way player who can be effective offensively when paired with with the right teammates. I like him in a seventh forward role, where he adds speed and depth scoring. His flaws are exposed without support from higher in the lineup. Worth the 4th-rounder and Hunwick’s contract.

The middle six remains this team’s fatal flaw and why acquiring a 2nd line centre is so important.

Edited July 8, 2019 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

@dudacek and @Randall Flagg

I don’t think Jbot got played by Skinner.  He had no choice but to sign him.  He had almost no leverage, which means Skinner set the price and Jbot had to pay it.  It also wasn’t a bad overpayment, at least according to The Athletic.   https://theathletic.com/1066908/2019/07/08/what-are-the-chances-a-free-agent-is-worth-his-new-contract/  They estimate we should have paid him 66.2 over the 8 years ($8.275).  However with no leverage, a losing team and keeping him was the top priority, I think Jbot did what he could.

The Athletic article does point out what we all know to well with big $ UFAs is that the deals look OK for a few years, but then they crash and burn (see KO, Moulson, Ehrhoff, Leino etc...) 69% of the time (players are traded or bought out).

The Skinner deal will eventually go that way as well, but if we get 5 good years, we should be happy.

We also somewhat overpaid for Johansson ($7.8 Value), but I love the term of only 2 years and he won’t block kids coming up from the minors.  

Also I agree with Dudacek that we are much deeper team whether or not you love the moves Jbot has made.  We are arguably 9-10 deep on D and have about 14-15 legit NHL forwards, but admittedly still lacking some quality in the top 6.  It’s a nice problem to have when you see two recent former 1st rd picks in Nylander and Thompson might not be able to crack the NHL lineup.  Now whether or not all this depth translates to the playoffs next season is up to Coach Ralph and the players.  

 

 

 

[Randall Flagg]

I think that if Jason had done his job adequately elsewhere, Skinner would have less leverage - we very clearly needed him to have any semblance of offense, and didn't have the "well we're a good team" pull. He would no doubt love to play on a contender. Jason had to fight through issues he created to make sure he kept a player he simply HAD to keep. 

But that doesn't take away from the fact that I view the Skinner trade and signing as a complete positive and have zero qualms about either overall.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The good news is Botterill may have doubled our collection of middle-six forwards this summer.

The bad news is we still only have four of them, three are complementary guys, and the one true 2nd liner is brittle and not suited to being a fourth forward.

I don’t like Marcus Johansson’s play in traffic, but he can be very effective on the perimeter and excels on the rush. Nice smarts, nice hands, nice feet and he can execute at high speeds. He looked good in the playoffs after two years of looking not so good. I think he could be very effective as Jack’s sidekick, or driving offence against bottom pairing defencemen. I fear he will be in over his head if he is asked to centre a 2nd line, particularly with lesser wingers. He’s not really a centre and not really an alpha. I hope he can stay healthy. But he is a genuine second-tier talent added to a roster that desperately needed some. A nice signing by Botterill at a price well worth the gamble.

I really hope Kyle Okposo can find a comfort zone in the level of player he is now rather than the player he thinks he should be. He needs to discover that less can be more and reinvent his game in the back half of his career. He puts far too much pressure on himself to create with his body when he should be letting the puck do the work for him. He’s obviously lumbering through the neutral zone, but he’s still a big man with good power, a solid wrist shot and a good passer in the O-zone when he’s in the right headspace. I like his work ethic, and think he can still put up 15 goals and 30-40 points if he adopts a more Pominville approach to the game. I know I’m in the minority in this, but I also think he can still be useful on the power play. He’s illsuited to the game the Sabres want to play, but I look at what Pat Maroon did and can hope. Not much Botterill can do here except guide him into the right role.

I’ve talked Vesey to death upthread. He’s got NHL feet and an NHL frame and can score goals but his game has been less than the sum of his parts. Hopefully, his pending UFA status, and/or chemistry with Jack of Sam can catch lightning in a bottle. Worth Botterill’s gamble of a 3rd round pick

Like Vesey, I talked Sheary a lot up-thread and like Vesey he is a soft, inconsistent one-way player who can be effective offensively when paired with with the right teammates. I like him in a seventh forward role, where he adds speed and depth scoring. His flaws are exposed without support from higher in the lineup. Worth the 4th-rounder and Hunwick’s contract.

To me, Okposo (since he isn't retiring not getting traded) should be the 4RW and the right 1/2 wall on the 2nd PP.  Realizing that makes the 4th line less of a shutdown line than it was with Berglund, but it also will pitch in a goal or 2, & the Bergy ship has already sailed. 

Really don't expect he can skate remotely fast enough to be on the 2nd line & as I'd like to have Mittelstadt C the 3rd line, would prefer he not end up there.  His size won't be needed to keep people from taking liberties with Casey and he's not got the wheels to be useful in the rush.

[GASabresIUFAN]

9 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I think that if Jason had done his job adequately elsewhere, Skinner would have less leverage - we very clearly needed him to have any semblance of offense, and didn't have the "well we're a good team" pull. He would no doubt love to play on a contender. Jason had to fight through issues he created to make sure he kept a player he simply HAD to keep. 

But that doesn't take away from the fact that I view the Skinner trade and signing as a complete positive and have zero qualms about either overall.

I’m confused?  Is this a reference to ROR?  Jbot needed to find Jack a sniper and did.  He properly let Kane walk as he wasn’t a good fit with Eichel’s game and we had no adequate replacement for Kane in our prospect pipeline. Even had we kept ROR, we still needed a sniper for Jack.  There is literally nothing Jbot could have done to address that situation other then what he did.  Keeping ROR may have made the team better, but Skinner would still have most of the leverage, because we had no adequate replacement mostly thanks to TM’s terrible drafting and player development.

Edited July 8, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[WildCard]

 

[Randall Flagg]

24 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’m confused?  Is this a reference to ROR?  Jbot needed to find Jack a sniper and did.  He properly let Kane walk as he wasn’t a good fit with Eichel’s game and we had no adequate replacement for Kane in our prospect pipeline. Even had we kept ROR, we still needed a sniper for Jack.  There is literally nothing Jbot could have done to address that situation other then what he did.  Keeping ROR may have made the team better, but Skinner would still have most of the leverage, because we had no adequate replacement mostly thanks to TM’s terrible drafting and player development.

It's a reference to every move he's made in his first two years. He made a team that was so bad it fired its entire front office such that its best season couldn't match that front office's worst, and that hampered Skinner negotiations, because it's clear how badly we needed him to stay, and that we don't have something to offer him that winning teams do. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[dudacek]

I was glad to see those analytics posted recently that backed up my eye test: Johan Larson is a really effective 4th line player. He gets his body on everything and consistently scrapes off chunks of skin in the process. I like his smarts and most of the time I like his battle, although the latter tends to waver at times. His hands and feet are lacking, but I am surprised he hasn’t put up more points given his IQ and the way he protects the puck. He was pacing for 30 points in his rookie year and again the year he blew out his elbow, but he’s never shown that since. You win with guys like this on the fourth line. Somewhat surprised and certainly happy that Botterill qualified him.

Some see Zemgus as exactly in the role he should be. I still don’t think he’s comfortable in that skin. I like his effort and his skating and fearlessness and his work on the P.K. Although he is mostly responsible in his own zone, I question his IQ. He’s very much a bull chasing a red flag, who is frequently worked by opposing defencemen. I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen him make a good pass and what has happened to those Latvian locomotive goals he used to score off the rush? I think he’s better suited to a two-way game than a purely defensive one and needs to be the chaser with two more cerebral linemates. But I also think that will never happen here. I’m good with him as a 4th liner but think he’d benefit from a change of scenery.

Ive said it before and I will say it again: the Sabres will be good when Evan Rodrigues can be properly slotted as their 10th forward. I simultaneously really like the guy and his approach, and think he is the most overrated player on the roster. I love his ability to play virtually any of the 12 forward slots in a pinch. I love his constant effort and the fact he is consistently trying things that he shouldn’t be capable of doing. But what you try isn’t as important as what you do and the fact is that he is just not talented enough to overcome the fact that he can be knocked over by a squirt from a water bottle. I like the idea of him being better than the other team’s fourth liners and a threat to the guys on his own team to move up the lineup due to their injury or ineffectiveness. I’ll consider guys like Vesey and Nylander a success only when they can demonstrate they are more effective than ERod. I see the fact that Housley took so long to see he was an upgrade on Thompson and Sobotka as more of a Housley problem than a Botterill problem. I don’t have a good feel for what Botterill thinks of him.

For all the ***** he took, I thought Vladimir Sobotka was reasonably reliable in his own zone last year. He went to the right places, eliminated his man and made safe decisions with the puck. But his relative responsibility in his own zone couldn’t hope to compensate for the devastating crater he put into our attack. He couldn’t pass, he couldn’t shoot, he couldn’t carry the puck and he couldn’t get open. His only move on the opponents’ side of centre was the soft dump into the corner. That even seemed to be his choice on those rare occasions he found himself with open ice in the slot. I will cry if he is in the starting lineup this October. His acquisition is an obvious black mark on Botterill’s player evaluation skills.

Scott Wilson is a placeholder, a hard-working, decent-skating pro who is perfectly adequate as an injury fill or 4th-liner who shouldn’t be used as anything more. Remi Elie might turn into that, but he has yet show he’s ready for even that role. They are both examples of the many players Botterill has cheaply acquired that have done very little in blue and gold.

i think the Sabres have more than enough serviceable depth players - especially once you factor in their unproven talent - once they fix their problems in the middle six.

Edited July 8, 2019 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

@dudacek If Jbot does trade Risto for the long awaited 2C you’ll get your wish as Erod Will then be our 10th forward.