Ralph Krueger to meet the Media Wednesday June 5th 10am

[darksabre]

11 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think it may take some time to sort the data into useful information though.  We know Skinner skates all over the place, but is that good?  We know Sabotka doesn't skate as much, but is that bad?  Would it make sense to come up with schemes that actually limit the "running around" that players like Skinner do, so they can sustain their performance over the whole game and not get tired?  Or can they direct a player like Sobotka to not skate hard all the time, but instead provide criteria for him on when he should skate hard?  In other words, can they look at the tracks of players on successful plays and determine how to apply the data from those tracks to turn losing plays into successful plays?  It isn't just how much a player skates, it's what effect they have on the game.

Yup, this is stuff that will take time to figure out. But the possibilities are almost endless, and you've got some very good use cases right there.

[Doohicksie]

26 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

The players manage their own changes, the coach just calls out who's next.

In every game you hear coaches calling "TIME!" and players going in for a change.  They don't do it every shift, but it's not uncommon.

[French Collection]

I’m not a techie but go for it Ralph.

Does player A skate 20mph without the puck but only15 mph while stickhandling?

Average distance covered per shift.

Is Risto more effective before 20 minutes and then has a drop off?

How close to his man are players on defensive coverage?

Smarter people than me can dream up uses and crunch the numbers into something meaningful. I just don’t need to see those numbers and manipulate them myself.

[pi2000]

Just now, WildCard said:

Did you watch his presser though? He very clearly said this is exactly what he won't do

I did, but it's a slippery slope.

Look, I'm not anti-data.  But for this team, in their current situation, focusing on player tracking data would be going down the wrong path imo.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

I did, but it's a slippery slope.

Look, I'm not anti-data.  But for this team, in their current situation, focusing on player tracking data would be going down the wrong path imo.

Since we don't know what that data shows, we can't say this. Also that isn't the only path and Kruger made that clear. He spent time talking about learning what tools players have and using them. This is making a mountain out of molehill for sure by focusing on 1 comment about player tracking which is something all NHL teams will be doing in the near future. 

[Stoner]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I want to bring in more Euro players just to hear him say their names. It's great. 

Correctly, I assume. I know it seems like a small point, but I've always worried about coaches and GMs who mangle their players' names. Jason says RistoLAYnen. Ruff said Grow-sick and such. It's a lack of respect. One of the million small things you do to have a winning organization.

[Doohicksie]

29 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Analysts will get stuck pouring over mountains of empirical data and turning it into useful information for coaches.

There.  I fixed it for you.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Doohickie

[pi2000]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

In every game you hear coaches calling "TIME!" and players going in for a change.  They don't do it every shift, but it's not uncommon.

Sorry, you're wrong.   This kind of thing phases out around Midget level.   Not once in my entire college career did my coach ever yell for a line to change.  Sure he's yelled at us on the bench if we were out there too long, but never directed at the players on the ice.

 

[pi2000]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Since we don't know what that data shows, we can't say this. Also that isn't the only path and Kruger made that clear. He spent time talking about learning what tools players have and using them. This is making a mountain out of molehill for sure by focusing on 1 comment about player tracking which is something all NHL teams will be doing in the near future. 

It's not a big deal, honestly.  It's just that everbody here is making such a weak argument for using that data, that it needs to be pointed out.

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, pi2000 said:

Sorry, you're wrong.   This kind of thing phases out around Midget level.   Not once in my entire college career did my coach ever yell for a line to change.  Sure he's yelled at us on the bench if we were out there too long, but never directed at the players on the ice.

Do you actually watch hockey?

 

A comparable situation would be continuing to build cars with fins on them because they pass the "eye test" of looking sleek and fast, never bothering to look at wind tunnel data.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, pi2000 said:

It's not a big deal, honestly.  It's just that everbody here is making such a weak argument for using that data, that it needs to be pointed out.

I think that the counter points you have made are weak as well. I have yet to hear a real good reason not to use that data or at least start to use the data. Us not knowing how the data will be used is not necessarily weak. I have seen several good suggestions for how the data could be used but I can think of some more if you like. 

Let's say that you track player A. Player has good fitness levels but in short intense battles they are not as good as they are in longer say open ice rushes. Maybe player tracking shows you that. They can do 2-3 rushes a shift but only 1 battle. So you look at how they train and discover they aren't focusing as much on that short busy and recovery that occurs in the battle. Now let us say this player is not one to rush up the ice because maybe they aren't the faster skater, so you can talk to them about being better in that short burst area of fitness and see how that impacts their game. 1 use of player tracking that the eye test alone isn't going to just teach you. I think there are multiple other ways. We don't know all the data they are getting with the gps data. If we knew that we could add other ways to use it. 

I have yet to see a strong argument why is should not be looked at. 

[Doohicksie]

The argument, and it would be valid if it were true, is that Krueger and his coaching staff would get so tangled up in data that it would impede their coaching.  I think Krueger will have an analytics staff that will look at the data and boil it down to information that can be presented to the coaching staff, and the coaching staff will use their experience ("eye test") to determine which findings are useful information that can be acted on, and which are just interesting data points of little practical use. I wouldn't be surprised if Kruger hires an analytics coach that does this for him, in much the same way there are video coaches who sort through game tapes to provide the HC with film that can be used to reinforce his points.

It won't be Krueger spending hours trying to sort the data using a big Excel spreadsheet when he should be game planning for the next opponent.  It will be a one hour meeting with his analytics staff, probably on a weekly to monthly basis.  Or his analytics coach briefing him a summary of the analytics.

[pi2000]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think that the counter points you have made are weak as well. I have yet to hear a real good reason not to use that data or at least start to use the data. Us not knowing how the data will be used is not necessarily weak. I have seen several good suggestions for how the data could be used but I can think of some more if you like. 

Let's say that you track player A. Player has good fitness levels but in short intense battles they are not as good as they are in longer say open ice rushes. Maybe player tracking shows you that. They can do 2-3 rushes a shift but only 1 battle. So you look at how they train and discover they aren't focusing as much on that short busy and recovery that occurs in the battle. Now let us say this player is not one to rush up the ice because maybe they aren't the faster skater, so you can talk to them about being better in that short burst area of fitness and see how that impacts their game. 1 use of player tracking that the eye test alone isn't going to just teach you. I think there are multiple other ways. We don't know all the data they are getting with the gps data. If we knew that we could add other ways to use it. 

I have yet to see a strong argument why is should not be looked at. 

It's a distraction to what the actual problems are with this team.   

When they become competitive  and have some measured amount of sustained  success, then I'm all for it.  Go ahead and turn over every stone.  

Let's say you're building a new house from the bottom up.  You don't start by picking out the color of your bathroom tile.

 

[Doohicksie]

Honestly I don't see complex analytics producing significant changes for the first year.  It will begin with baselining current players, then analyzing their performance against their own personal baselines and the baselines of the most effective players of the same position, then rolling the results out to the players in bits and pieces to get them to improve their games.  The baselining alone could take as much as a full season.

[Zamboni]

For gods sake PI ... it’s going to be A TOOL he will use. Not THE TOOL. Whether you like it or not. Too freaking bad. Among other analytics and the “eye test”, collectively it will tell and accurate story. One in which will drive his decision making game after game and during games.

“But I hope he doesn’t do this or doesn’t do that” 

It’s June. Get a grip bro. Good grief. 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

For gods sake PI ... it’s going to be A TOOL he will use. Not THE TOOL. Whether you like it or not. Too freaking bad. Among other analytics and the “eye test”, collectively it will tell and accurate story. One in which will drive his decision making game after game and during games.

“But I hope he doesn’t do this or doesn’t do that” 

It’s June. Get a grip bro. Good grief. 

I think he has a grip. I don't agree with him but I understand why he is skeptical. We have had 8 years of stupidity on this team. Until someone proves they are not a mistake we should be skeptical that they won't be.

Edited June 5, 2019 by LGR4GM

[That Aud Smell]

24 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Sorry, you're wrong.   This kind of thing phases out around Midget level.   Not once in my entire college career did my coach ever yell for a line to change.  Sure he's yelled at us on the bench if we were out there too long, but never directed at the players on the ice.

I'm trying to dig into my memory banks. For several seasons in and throughout the 90s, a friend from the old neighborhood had access to seats right near the Sabres bench. I sat there with him probably 12 times. I'm trying to think if I could ever recall one of Muckler, Nolan, or Ruff call guys off the ice. I seem to recall some very loud whistling - from time to time.

The other thing that immediately comes to mind is how players on the ice will routinely signal for a change. If they were being called off the ice, why signal?

19 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Do you actually watch hockey?

Bro - he played hockey. I thought we were clear on that.

Edited June 5, 2019 by That Aud Smell

[Curt]

2 hours ago, Zamboni said:

I thought he mentioned it as a tool that CAN be used as a part of analytics. Not that he WILL in fact actually do that. Maybe I heard it wrong.

The entire NHL will begin tracking player movement this coming season.  It’s not a question of IF Buffalo will do it.  It’s a question of HOW they will use the data.

[pi2000]

6 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

For gods sake PI ... it’s going to be A TOOL he will use. Not THE TOOL. Whether you like it or not. Too freaking bad. Among other analytics and the “eye test”, collectively it will tell and accurate story. One in which will drive his decision making game after game and during games.

“But I hope he doesn’t do this or doesn’t do that” 

It’s June. Get a grip bro. Good grief. 

Ha!  

I will say this... I was happy to hear he's having laptops loaded with game film from last season so he can review it and get to know what issues he's facing.

Unlike Housley who just g.ave everybody a clean slate and started from scratch and took 2 years just to get back to where he started.

Edited June 5, 2019 by pi2000

[spndnchz]

Talk the talk but walk the walk he’s got a lot to figure out. 

[North Buffalo]

21 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I'm trying to dig into my memory banks. For several seasons in and throughout the 90s, a friend from the old neighborhood had access to seats right near the Sabres bench. I sat there with him probably 12 times. I'm trying to think if I could ever recall one of Muckler, Nolan, or Ruff call guys off the ice. I seem to recall some very loud whistling - from time to time.

The other thing that immediately comes to mind is how players on the ice will routinely signal for a change. If they were being called off the ice, why signal?

Bro - he played hockey. I thought we were clear on that.

Yes I remember Ruff whistling a lot for players to change.

6 minutes ago, spndnchz said:

Talk the talk but walk the walk he’s got a lot to figure out. 

Everybody should have a plan, but what happens after you get hit in the face is important.

[nfreeman]

43 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

For gods sake PI ... it’s going to be A TOOL he will use. Not THE TOOL. Whether you like it or not. Too freaking bad. Among other analytics and the “eye test”, collectively it will tell and accurate story. One in which will drive his decision making game after game and during games.

“But I hope he doesn’t do this or doesn’t do that” 

It’s June. Get a grip bro. Good grief. 

I generally agree with the substance here, but take it down a notch please.

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

Do you actually watch hockey?

 

A comparable situation would be continuing to build cars with fins on them because they pass the "eye test" of looking sleek and fast, never bothering to look at wind tunnel data.

Pi's right. NHL players know when to come off the ice. They are not called off by the coaches.

[TrueBlueGED]

1 hour ago, WildCard said:

See and not remember as well in detail later. Coaches can see shots, pinches, scoring chances, saves with their own eyes too, and not remember exactly what lead to it, the impact of it, or who was on the ice for it later on too. 

Thaaaaaaaank you. The human memory is freaking terrible. 

[TrueBlueGED]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

Prime example of analysis paralysis.  Coaches will get stuck pouring over mountains of empirical data instead of teaching the game.

Which, of course, is why teams employ statistical analysts. It's not like the coach is going to be personally doing this stuff on his own.