Sam Reinhart's bridge deal and his long term outlook.

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, inkman said:

I feel like whatever truth their ever was behind this sentiment has long left the game. You need players with courage and fortitute to play through contact and be creative in the high risk zones but you don't need a 6'5" goon on their wing to keep other goons at Bay.  

I think the Sabres do have some players that play that way but a few need to be weeded out who are averse to contact and shy away from high risk areas. 

I think you hit the nail on the head. You need players willing to battle through contact, go to the high risk areas, and make a play there. 

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, inkman said:

I feel like whatever truth their ever was behind this sentiment has long left the game. You need players with courage and fortitute to play through contact and be creative in the high risk zones but you don't need a 6'5" goon on their wing to keep other goons at Bay.  

I think the Sabres do have some players that play that way but a few need to be weeded out who are averse to contact and shy away from high risk areas. 

I'm with you in part. I agree the goons are gone or leaving (a few like Reaves left) but we in no way are tough enough as a team to play with teams like the 2 in the final. I'm not even sure we can outhit or outmuscle Toronto, and they are pretty soft too. 

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm with you in part. I agree the goons are gone or leaving (a few like Reaves left) but we in no way are tough enough as a team to play with teams like the 2 in the final. I'm not even sure we can outhit or outmuscle Toronto, and they are pretty soft too. 

I agree with you. I wonder how that changes when we mature.

Im thinking in particular about Dahlin and Mittelstadt who are among our worst offenders at the moment, but have very competitive personalities and the frames to get a lot stronger.

[nfreeman]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm with you in part. I agree the goons are gone or leaving (a few like Reaves left) but we in no way are tough enough as a team to play with teams like the 2 in the final. I'm not even sure we can outhit or outmuscle Toronto, and they are pretty soft too. 

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I agree with you. I wonder how that changes when we mature.

Im thinking in particular about Dahlin and Mittelstadt who are among our worst offenders at the moment, but have very competitive personalities and the frames to get a lot stronger.

They have nasty on D and there is a reasonable chance it stays that way if guys like Borgen, McCabe and Risto stick around, plus Dahlin as @dudacek notes.

It is lacking at forward in the top 9 though.

 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I agree with you. I wonder how that changes when we mature.

Im thinking in particular about Dahlin and Mittelstadt who are among our worst offenders at the moment, but have very competitive personalities and the frames to get a lot stronger.

 

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

They have nasty on D and there is a reasonable chance it stays that way if guys like Borgen, McCabe and Risto stick around, plus Dahlin as @dudacek notes.

It is lacking at forward in the top 9 though.

 

I think Dahlin will be fine for sure. I'd just like to see him have time to fill out his frame and fully develop all his skills before having to throw his (future) weight around. I liked the idea of pairing him with Bogo earlier when Bogo was healthy and at the time our most physical guy. Hopeful for Borgen, not sure about McCabe. Really not sure about the Montour/Dahlin pairing.

Mittlestadt is another story entirely. Its been discussed often but why he wasn't developed with a full AHL season I have no idea. Definitely not ready and no idea how he develops now. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

 

I think Dahlin will be fine for sure. I'd just like to see him have time to fill out his frame and fully develop all his skills before having to throw his (future) weight around. I liked the idea of pairing him with Bogo earlier when Bogo was healthy and at the time our most physical guy. Hopeful for Borgen, not sure about McCabe. Really not sure about the Montour/Dahlin pairing.

Mittlestadt is another story entirely. Its been discussed often but why he wasn't developed with a full AHL season I have no idea. Definitely not ready and no idea how he develops now. 

I’m not so sure about the “Mittelstadt wasn’t ready” narrative.

About 400 forwards played regularly last year. Casey was tied for 215th in goals and 244th for points, putting him pretty much solidly as a 3rd liner offensively.

Guys with similar point totals included Burakovsky, Steen, Pearson, Kempe, Beauvillier, Maroon, Bennett, Jost, Barbashev, Jarnkrok, Bjugstad, Donato, Virtanen, Copp, Wood, Roslovic, Brassard, Sprong, Turris, Armia, Lowry, Hintz and Clifford.

He certainly was nowhere near ready to be an effective 2nd line centre. But as a bottom-six offensive depth player learning the league, I don’t think he was over his head at all. I think it was a testament to his skill level that he was able to put up the numbers he did given his physical immaturity and the fact that prior to this season he had played maybe 60 games at a level higher than High school hockey.

Edited June 11, 2019 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

 

I think Dahlin will be fine for sure. I'd just like to see him have time to fill out his frame and fully develop all his skills before having to throw his (future) weight around. I liked the idea of pairing him with Bogo earlier when Bogo was healthy and at the time our most physical guy. Hopeful for Borgen, not sure about McCabe. Really not sure about the Montour/Dahlin pairing.

Mittlestadt is another story entirely. Its been discussed often but why he wasn't developed with a full AHL season I have no idea. Definitely not ready and no idea how he develops now. 

Mittelstadt was fine. He almost hit his projected point total dead on. If he had any competent wingers he would have. 

[PerreaultForever]

12 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m not so sure about the “Mittelstadt wasn’t ready” narrative.

About 400 forwards played regularly last year. Casey was tied for 215th in goals and 244th for points, putting him pretty much solidly as a 3rd liner offensively.

Guys with similar point totals included Burakovsky, Steen, Pearson, Kempe, Beauvillier, Maroon, Bennett, Jost, Barbashev, Jarnkrok, Bjugstad, Donato, Virtanen, Copp, Wood, Roslovic, Brassard, Sprong, Turris, Armia, Lowry, Hintz and Clifford.

He certainly was nowhere near ready to be an effective 2nd line centre. But as a bottom-six offensive depth player learning the league, I don’t think he was over his head at all. I think it was a testament to his skill level that he was able to put up the numbers he did given his physical immaturity and the fact that prior to this season he had played maybe 60 games at a level higher than High school hockey.

I guess the better wording would be Casey wasn't ready fro the role assigned to him. As a 3rd line centre I wouldn't have any issues with it but I think he would have learned more and developed better as a top minutes guy in Rochester rather than floundering as a 2C. If his play had steady improved I'd be on board with you but it did the reverse as the games got tougher and he was clearly in too deep.

Interesting you mention Donato. Similar player for sure, but also of note the Bruins moved him down the depth chart quickly when he didn't fully buy in, sent him down for a long spell and ultimately deemed him expendable. Just sayin' seeing as they're in the final and all. 

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Mittelstadt was fine. He almost hit his projected point total dead on. If he had any competent wingers he would have. 

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "fine." Bar is pretty low in this town. Totally agree about the wingers though. No question. Hence my view that without at least 2 solid FA wingers added to this roster we will once again have no chance. 

[LGR4GM]

11 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I guess the better wording would be Casey wasn't ready fro the role assigned to him. As a 3rd line centre I wouldn't have any issues with it but I think he would have learned more and developed better as a top minutes guy in Rochester rather than floundering as a 2C. If his play had steady improved I'd be on board with you but it did the reverse as the games got tougher and he was clearly in too deep.

Interesting you mention Donato. Similar player for sure, but also of note the Bruins moved him down the depth chart quickly when he didn't fully buy in, sent him down for a long spell and ultimately deemed him expendable. Just sayin' seeing as they're in the final and all. 

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "fine." Bar is pretty low in this town. Totally agree about the wingers though. No question. Hence my view that without at least 2 solid FA wingers added to this roster we will once again have no chance. 

The condescension is getting old. For a rookie with a college to nhl point equivalency in year 1 of 34 points in 82 games, the fact he got 31 points in 83 games is fine.

The bar for me is very high because I think the because Buffalo bull$hit is just that, complete and utter bull. Defending rookie Casey who had trash wingers and was not deployed properly to still hit his equivalency is fine. Reading people defend 6 YEAR PRO and VETERAN Ristolainen who is still garbage on defense because he "clears the front and hits" is the definition of a low bar IMPO.

[nfreeman]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The condescension is getting old. For a rookie with a college to nhl point equivalency in year 1 of 34 points in 82 games, the fact he got 31 points in 83 games is fine.

The bar for me is very high because I think the because Buffalo bull$hit is just that, complete and utter bull. Defending rookie Casey who had trash wingers and was not deployed properly to still hit his equivalency is fine. Reading people defend 6 YEAR PRO and VETERAN Ristolainen who is still garbage on defense because he "clears the front and hits" is the definition of a low bar IMPO.

I don't think there is anything wrong with being dissatisfied with Mittsy's season last year.  He's young and has a ton of potential, and no one wants to unload him at this point, but I think most of us were expecting more last year.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with being dissatisfied with Mittsy's season last year.  He's young and has a ton of potential, and no one wants to unload him at this point, but I think most of us were expecting more last year.

Botterill certainly was. 

But I fall more in line with LGR's views on this matter, on the whole. It reflects poorly on the GM, not really Casey. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Thorny

[Curt]

Just now, Thorny said:

Botterill certainly was. 

Maybe he was, but I think he was also expecting more from Berglund!

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Curtisp5286 said:

Maybe he was, but I think he was also expecting more from Berglund!

There was a lot of talk that Berglund was brought in to be 2C and then didn't live up to, or earn, that slot.  In truth neither did Mitts.  What I don't get is, why didn't XHCPH take the long view and recognize that Mitts as a younger player needed to develop, and could have had less pressure and just let him play 3C and give Berglund a longer chance at 2C?  Okay so his production wasn't 2C-worthy, but neither was Mitts'.  When the glaring hole at 2C was identified, they should have simply let Mitts play a level of competition that would best help his development.  He should have been at 3C.

And who knows?  Given the chance, Bergie might have eventually found his stride at 2C.  Instead he felt like a spare part on a broken machine.  Yeah, for the money he was getting he should have sucked it up.  But I still think it would have been better for the team overall in the long run to just let him play 2C... even if he wasn't worthy.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

There was a lot of talk that Berglund was brought in to be 2C and then didn't live up to, or earn, that slot.  In truth neither did Mitts.  What I don't get is, why didn't XHCPH take the long view and recognize that Mitts as a younger player needed to develop, and could have had less pressure and just let him play 3C and give Berglund a longer chance at 2C?  Okay so his production wasn't 2C-worthy, but neither was Mitts'.  When the glaring hole at 2C was identified, they should have simply let Mitts play a level of competition that would best help his development.  He should have been at 3C.

And who knows?  Given the chance, Bergie might have eventually found his stride at 2C.  Instead he felt like a spare part on a broken machine.  Yeah, for the money he was getting he should have sucked it up.  But I still think it would have been better for the team overall in the long run to just let him play 2C... even if he wasn't worthy.

So, from my view, Mitts didn’t really play a 2nd line role last season.  There was no 2nd line.  Every line apart from Eichel’s played about the same ES mins.  If you want to get super technical, Mitts did not have the 2nd most ES time among Cs.  Should Larsson have played 15 mins ES while Mitts played 9?  Would it have benefited Mitts to center Girgensons or Thompson more often?  The middle six was abysmal.  There not many good options.

If Berglund was given 15 ES mins per game, would he have been happy and stuck around?  I’m doubtful and I would think that part of him falling out of favor relatively quickly may have been that he mentally already had one foot out the door.

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The condescension is getting old. For a rookie with a college to nhl point equivalency in year 1 of 34 points in 82 games, the fact he got 31 points in 83 games is fine.

The bar for me is very high because I think the because Buffalo bull$hit is just that, complete and utter bull. Defending rookie Casey who had trash wingers and was not deployed properly to still hit his equivalency is fine. Reading people defend 6 YEAR PRO and VETERAN Ristolainen who is still garbage on defense because he "clears the front and hits" is the definition of a low bar IMPO.

It's NOT condescension. It's being fed up with losing. It's being fed up with watching players leave and be better elsewhere. It's being fed up with next year, next year, young potential, blah blah blah and then the same old crap on the ice. So what is it for you this year, maybe it was all Housley's fault and with him gone it'll all be fine? We were a crap team and right now we are still a crap team. All JBot has done so far this off season is overpay a guy most of the league and outside journalists reacted to with a what? he got how much? So at the moment, it'll be same old crap again and our so called bright future stars will what? suddenly lead the league? 

Come on, is praising Mitts play is your bar for success then yes, your bar is too damn low. You think he would have lasted more than half a season with the big club in Boston? St. Louis? Any other good playoff team? Not a chance. 

Praising Risto? No. He has to be better too. They all have to be better.A lot better. And JBot has to draft really well and we need several additional FAs. We need a lot. Really, aren't you tired of losing too????

[LGR4GM]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's NOT condescension. It's being fed up with losing. It's being fed up with watching players leave and be better elsewhere. It's being fed up with next year, next year, young potential, blah blah blah and then the same old crap on the ice. So what is it for you this year, maybe it was all Housley's fault and with him gone it'll all be fine? We were a crap team and right now we are still a crap team. All JBot has done so far this off season is overpay a guy most of the league and outside journalists reacted to with a what? he got how much? So at the moment, it'll be same old crap again and our so called bright future stars will what? suddenly lead the league? 

Come on, is praising Mitts play is your bar for success then yes, your bar is too damn low. You think he would have lasted more than half a season with the big club in Boston? St. Louis? Any other good playoff team? Not a chance. 

Praising Risto? No. He has to be better too. They all have to be better.A lot better. And JBot has to draft really well and we need several additional FAs. We need a lot. Really, aren't you tired of losing too????

Good lord this is exactly what I mean. It's a completely condescending take criticizing me for what? Expecting mittelstadt to be what he was? So what? The condescending trash part is all the bolded garbage. 

Also when the ***** did I praise his play. Stop putting words in my mouth because you built up a player in your mind to be better than he was going to be. 

Oh and for the record St Louis was trash for half the season until they got good goaltending so yea, he would have stuck. 

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by LGR4GM

[PerreaultForever]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Good lord this is exactly what I mean. It's a completely condescending take criticizing me for what? Expecting mittelstadt to be what he was? So what? The condescending trash part is all the bolded garbage. 

Also when the ***** did I praise his play. Stop putting words in my mouth because you built up a player in your mind to be better than he was going to be. 

Oh and for the record St Louis was trash for half the season until they got good goaltending so yea, he would have stuck. 

 

Really don't get why you read my posts as if they were all about you. I'm talking about my team, the Sabres. Are you them? It's shifting to me vs. you but you are the one who wants it that way. When I said initially the bar was low it was about Buffalo in general. No f'n idea why you want to take it personally but have at it. I got no use for this personal attack bs. 

[LGR4GM]

I suppose we'll just agree to disagree about the state of mitts on this team. 

[inkman]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's NOT condescension. It's being fed up with losing. It's being fed up with watching players leave and be better elsewhere. 

How long is that list?  

ROR - Same

E. Kane - Same

Vanek - Worse

Pominville - Same or worse

Miller - Worse 

Briere - Same

Drury - Worse

Myers - Same or worse

Campbell - Same

Stafford - Worse

MacArthur - Better

Paille - Same

Gerbe - Same

Ennis - Worse

Butler - Same

Gaustad - Worse

Foligno - Same 

McNabb - Same or better 

Kassian - Same

There are a ton more but I don't see any trend where players went elsewhere and got better. 

 

[LTS]

Hallelujah inky.  

I get that people are sick of losing, but y'all gotta be more rational about why it happened.  It's unfortunate that so many people act this way in life now (not just on a Sabres fan forum).  They get all bent over why things aren't the way they want them to be and then start throwing crap at the walls to see what sticks.  Run around like the sky is falling and simply refuse to accept that sometimes, things continue in a certain way that cause a negative outcome.  Worse yet, they'll  fail to understand that the lack of stability within their lives is what exacerbates the problem but because they are so desperate to try and fix everything immediately (based on things being bad for too long) they will continue to make/demand rapid fire changes.  Those changes only lead to the same problem, and the cycle repeats itself.

No one here is happy with the Sabres losing for the past however many years.  Not a single one.

[LGR4GM]

I can be satisfied with Mittelstadt's first year and still unhappy we lost.