The 2019 Stanley Cup Final. St Louis vs Boston

[Drunkard]

29 minutes ago, SDS said:

Very rational take. ?

My next take will be even more rational when he trades Ristolainen away for another handful of magic beans. Maybe we'll be lucky enough to watch Ristolainen play for the Cup next season for Tampa Bay while we get to discuss how great it was that we got JT Miller, Ryan Callahan, and some other garbage camp dump plus a late round first for a prime aged right handed defenseman under a solid contract who can be counted on to stay healthy and put up 40 points of offense. I can't wait.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Drunkard

[SwampD]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Never saw him play with that much intensity in a single game here - ever. 

Yes you have.

[Zamboni]

10 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Yes you have.

most fans have. Not all. And even if one has a very short term memory and can’t remember, It doesn’t take much effort (unless one is freakin laaaaazy) to search for video evidence of ROR “playing with intensity” for COL, BUF and STL before last nights playoff game. It’s just whiners dismissing, denying, and doing what they do best. Yawn ...

Edited June 4, 2019 by Zamboni

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Drunkard said:

I could say the same about Berglund, Sobotka, and Thompson and that collection of bums can't even measure up to a bad day for O'Reilly. That late first rounder better turn into a clone of Mark Messier.

No one's going to disagree that the return didn't measure up and ROR was a subtraction. No question about that. The issue that can never be resolved cause we just get rumors and no concrete facts is 1) did he demand a trade out behind closed doors and 2) were there cancerous locker room issues in or around him (perhaps related to his desire to get out). So in other words rock and a hard place no win situation for the Sabres. Best to end it and move on if you want to rebuild.

I personally think ROR is a self centered egotist who took the money here but quit on us. Not the kind of guy you can build a team around but at the same time the kind of guy who demands you treat him like the star. When motivated he can be great, and in this game he was, but he has not been great in the playoffs as a whole, he fits better into a veteran team with other leaders. I don't want him to win, but he just might. If so he can take his winnings and buy himself a Tim Horton's to crash into any time he wants.

There is one missing piece to the trade though besides the pick. A lot of money and cap space saved so if JBot spends that wisely this FA season that has to be added to the final analysis. If not, ya, trade was a bust, but then I wish we still had Compher and Zadorov.

Edited June 4, 2019 by PerreaultForever

[Pimlach]

19 hours ago, WildCard said:

For all we know he could have been a hard no but damn is watching Vince Dunn painful right now in light of Tage 

I heard Bots was trying to get Robert Thomas (injured) in the trade not Dunn, but all Armstrong would offer was Thompson.   

Dunn is developing into very good defenseman.  

I still hold hope to Tage, maybe it clicks for him soon.  

[SDS]

21 hours ago, WildCard said:

For all we know he could have been a hard no but damn is watching Vince Dunn painful right now in light of Tage 

What St Louis offered says as much as why JB thought he had to be moved. 

[WildCard]

29 minutes ago, SDS said:

What St Louis offered says as much as why JB thought he had to be moved. 

Confused me here 

[Neo]

6 minutes ago, WildCard said:

Confused me here 

Not much demand for ROR factored into JBot’s evaluation of his own  asset.  I speak SDS.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Neo

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, Neo said:

Not much demand for ROR factored into JBot’s evaluation of his own  asset.  I speak SDS.

Hindsight proving the lopsidedness of this deal can reasonably lead us to the conclusion that a few GMs may be kicking themselves that they didnt step up with a better package. Or we can conclude one or both of two things happened here:

1) The hockey industry was generally aware of the reasons ROR was on the block and that made them reluctant to pay a king’s ransom

2) The hockey industry generally thought Berglund was a 20-goal man and Sobotka was a solid bottom-sixer and therefore was reluctant to match a king’s ransom.

And, of course there were the mitigating circumstances of the bonus interfering and the possibility of Botterill getting better offers and failing to recognize them for what they were.

Would we be as upset if the trade were with:

Calgary for Ferland, Frolik, Kylington a 2nd and what turned out to be pick 26

or Carolina for Williams, Rask, Fleury a 2nd and what turned out to be pick 28

Edited June 5, 2019 by dudacek

[Brawndo]

The July 1st Deadline was a contributor to the return being horrible. 

Carolina was interested in a deal with Elias Lindholm rumored to be  part of the package coming back to Buffalo as long as the Sabres paid the bonus 

Given the fact he was traded to Calgary at the draft, there seems to credence to this.

 

 

[Wyldnwoody44]

[Drunkard]

17 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

No one's going to disagree that the return didn't measure up and ROR was a subtraction. No question about that. The issue that can never be resolved cause we just get rumors and no concrete facts is 1) did he demand a trade out behind closed doors and 2) were there cancerous locker room issues in or around him (perhaps related to his desire to get out). So in other words rock and a hard place no win situation for the Sabres. Best to end it and move on if you want to rebuild.

I personally think ROR is a self centered egotist who took the money here but quit on us. Not the kind of guy you can build a team around but at the same time the kind of guy who demands you treat him like the star. When motivated he can be great, and in this game he was, but he has not been great in the playoffs as a whole, he fits better into a veteran team with other leaders. I don't want him to win, but he just might. If so he can take his winnings and buy himself a Tim Horton's to crash into any time he wants.

There is one missing piece to the trade though besides the pick. A lot of money and cap space saved so if JBot spends that wisely this FA season that has to be added to the final analysis. If not, ya, trade was a bust, but then I wish we still had Compher and Zadorov.

O'Reilly wasn't a quitter by any stretch. Berglund (the guy Botterill saw enough value in to trade for him) was the quitter. Even if O'Reilly did ask for a trade it was done privately. Whether it happened or not though is almost irrelevant. The guy was under contract. He's doesn't get moved just because he asked and he certainly doesn't get moved on some arbitrary deadline when the value coming back is garbage. It was public knowledge for almost 2 seasons that Duchene wanted out of Colorado but the Avs GM didn't let that force his hand into accepting a garbage return. That's on Botterill, even if the Pegulas told him they wanted him traded (which we don't even know for sure) because as the newly hired subject matter expert on running the team, he should have better explained to his bosses that trading our cow for magic beans would set the team back.

I also find it difficult to see any cap space saved as some positive when the guy in charge of using that cap space thought it was wise to spend cap space on guys like Berglund and Sobotka. There wasn't even any cap space saved for last season when the trade happened and the only reason we saved any space at all last season or this upcoming season is because Berglund ran home with his tail between his legs.

[Drunkard]

13 hours ago, SDS said:

What St Louis offered says as much as why JB thought he had to be moved. 

Then you hold onto the player until you get a better offer. The Avalanche did that with Duchene and ended up with a top 5 pick.

I do think there's a good chance that the Pegulas were still pissed at him for his alleged drunk driving dust up right after signing his big contract and it's certainly possible that his Eeyore attitude in the end of season interviews may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but it's on Botterill to explain to them how setting an arbitrary deadline to get him out would hurt the team.

[PerreaultForever]

10 hours ago, Drunkard said:

O'Reilly wasn't a quitter by any stretch. Berglund (the guy Botterill saw enough value in to trade for him) was the quitter. Even if O'Reilly did ask for a trade it was done privately. Whether it happened or not though is almost irrelevant. The guy was under contract. He's doesn't get moved just because he asked

I'm not sure how you think you can start a new era and change the attitude and start moving forward with the arrival of a new #1 overall pick if the second best guy in your locker room doesn't want to be there and just goes through the motions to be paid or worse sits out (unlikely, but possible)? It's all about timing, and in this case I really don't see what JBot could have done if ROR demanded a trade. The house had to be cleaned of anyone who didn't want to be here.

As for the return, I think there was no better offer and ya, the owner wanted to save the bonus money, so the GM does what the owner wants obviously.

As for the cap, the bonus money goes against the cap does it not? It's just divided over the time period. I don't waste my life trying to figure out cap math much but I'm pretty sure there was a lot of money saved and even more with Berglund gone so it MUST be spent to get better for sure.

 

[Taro T]

54 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not sure how you think you can start a new era and change the attitude and start moving forward with the arrival of a new #1 overall pick if the second best guy in your locker room doesn't want to be there and just goes through the motions to be paid or worse sits out (unlikely, but possible)? It's all about timing, and in this case I really don't see what JBot could have done if ROR demanded a trade. The house had to be cleaned of anyone who didn't want to be here.

As for the return, I think there was no better offer and ya, the owner wanted to save the bonus money, so the GM does what the owner wants obviously.

As for the cap, the bonus money goes against the cap does it not? It's just divided over the time period. I don't waste my life trying to figure out cap math much but I'm pretty sure there was a lot of money saved and even more with Berglund gone so it MUST be spent to get better for sure.

 

The way the CBA reads, how much a player counts against the cap is averaged over the length of the contract and gets charged against the cap each day during the regular season that the player is in the NHL.  So, unless there is some weird clarification memo we don't know about, then had Buffalo paid the bonus then traded O'Reilly (rather than what they did which was trade him before the bonus was due), the entire cap hit would've been charged to the Blues daily even though the Sabres had actually paid the bulk of the cash.

It'll be interesting to see if a similar situation arises in the future &/or this "loophole" in the CBA gets addressed in the next CBA.  As this would appear to be another way for big money teams to buy cap space (& also allow low budget teams hit the cap floor with minimal cash outlays) and unfairly have a larger effective cap than other teams.  Had the Sabres paid O'Reilly they would've spent $7.5MM in actual cash that wouldn't have counted against their own cap at all.

[Sabel79]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

It'll be interesting to see if a similar situation arises in the future &/or this "loophole" in the CBA gets addressed in the next CBA.  As this would appear to be another way for big money teams to buy cap space (& also allow low budget teams hit the cap floor with minimal cash outlays) and unfairly have a larger effective cap than other teams.  Had the Sabres paid O'Reilly they would've spent $7.5MM in actual cash that wouldn't have counted against their own cap at all.

It’s also lockout insurance since the bonuses get paid no matter what, and the bulk of the contract is paid out early on.  Guaranteed this is a big reason why the next lockout happens. 

[Drunkard]

52 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not sure how you think you can start a new era and change the attitude and start moving forward with the arrival of a new #1 overall pick if the second best guy in your locker room doesn't want to be there and just goes through the motions to be paid or worse sits out (unlikely, but possible)? It's all about timing, and in this case I really don't see what JBot could have done if ROR demanded a trade. The house had to be cleaned of anyone who didn't want to be here.

As for the return, I think there was no better offer and ya, the owner wanted to save the bonus money, so the GM does what the owner wants obviously.

As for the cap, the bonus money goes against the cap does it not? It's just divided over the time period. I don't waste my life trying to figure out cap math much but I'm pretty sure there was a lot of money saved and even more with Berglund gone so it MUST be spent to get better for sure.

 

Well I'm glad I'm not a season ticket holder then. To save $7.5 million dollars they cost us a golden opportunity to get better or at least break even on the trade and instead, they set back the rebuild significantly. Murray set up his contract to be extremely friendly to unload after that bonus was paid. Not just this past year, but really every year of the contract. If Pegula had only decided to drill another gas well like he previously stated, just imagine what O'Reilly would have brought in through trade with a cap hit of $7.5 million but a salary of just $1 million.

Cash poor teams like Carolina, Ottawa, and Arizona love contracts like that. I still would have preferred to keep O'Reilly but if they had to move him getting a young defenseman from Carolina or a former blue chipper that Ottawa or Arizona has drafted over the last 5 years would have made it easier to accept. 

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/st-louis-blues/ryan-oreilly-6353/

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Sabel79 said:

It's also lockout insurance since the bonuses get paid no matter what, and the bulk of the contract is paid out early on.  Guaranteed this is a big reason why the next lockout happens. 

 True.

[Eleven]

I started a lockout thread for you all ....

Edited June 6, 2019 by Eleven

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, Eleven said:

I started a lockout thread for you all ....

Yes, Liger ...

[Eleven]

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Yes, Liger ...

Use it.

[WildCard]

 

[WildCard]

 

[#freejame]

27 minutes ago, WildCard said:

 

I can’t even begin to imagine how ***** playing hockey without being able to open one’s mouth would be. Don’t think I could do it. How would he throw up?

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, #freejame said:

I can’t even begin to imagine how ***** playing hockey without being able to open one’s mouth would be. Don’t think I could do it. How would he throw up?

Through his nose. I've done it