Botterill: Thoughts on Last Season

[darksabre]

On 5/17/2019 at 12:53 PM, Brawndo said:

That’s the impression I got as well. In particular when Botterill said Reinhart can drive his own line and Housley insisted on him being with Jack 

Not letting Reinhart have his own line all season was Housley's biggest mistake. The team was obviously better when Sam could drive his own line and Housley simply refused to accept it. 

[matter2003]

On 5/17/2019 at 11:25 AM, Weave said:

Worst roller coaster ever.

Up the big first hill, super cool first drop, and then a sustained long, slow drop into the abyss.

Had the best record in hockey in late november and followed it by the worst record in hockey the rest of the way. Not sure that has ever been done before.

[Thorner]

On 5/19/2019 at 2:29 PM, darksabre said:

Not letting Reinhart have his own line all season was Housley's biggest mistake. The team was obviously better when Sam could drive his own line and Housley simply refused to accept it. 

If only he had a boss who disagreed with him, who could have stepped up in season and forced him to make the change..

Edited May 20, 2019 by Thorny

[darksabre]

24 minutes ago, Thorny said:

If only he had a boss who disagreed with him, who could have stepped up in season and forced him to make the change..

GMs don't micromanage coaches like that in the NHL. I'm sure they had conversations about it, but (and I know Botts even said this on WGR) lineup decisions are up to Phil. 

If Phil didn't take his GM's advice, welp, there's one reason why he's not around now. 

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

GMs don't micromanage coaches like that in the NHL. I'm sure they had conversations about it, but (and I know Botts even said this on WGR) lineup decisions are up to Phil. 

If Phil didn't take his GM's advice, welp, there's one reason why he's not around now. 

I'd have settled for an earlier firing then, I guess, once it became apparent to Botterill that he wasn't going to listen to reason. But I take your point. 

[PalmTreeMafia]

On 5/17/2019 at 4:59 PM, PerreaultForever said:

I'm pretty sure he knows the real stuff and these sort of things are just empty media answers. He knows Casey was an inadequate 2C. He was hoping he'd be a rookie sensation but he knows he wasn't but he's not going to say it cause it makes himself and Casey look bad. So he's going to try to find a 2C but if he can't we will hear more stuff about developing our own players. Same for all other positions. It's good diplomacy, but ultimately empty and meaningless.

He better do a lot more than try this off-season. JBot seems to be all about player development and building a winning organization super slowly from the ground up. But if he doesn't fill the glaring roster holes (#2 center, top-6 winger at bare minimum) in Buffalo NOW and this team has a 2019-20 season similar to the past 2 (or doesn't make the playoffs within the next 2 seasons), he'll find himself fired.

[dudacek]

Botterill’s significant moves, graded

Hiring Housley: fail

Overhauling the amateur scouting squad: TBD

 Building depth: meh at best (Sheary, Scandella, Pominville, Beaulieu, Hutton, Pilut, Wilson, Pouliot, Josefson...)

Overhauling the development system: TBD, trending positively

Signing Eichel To long-term deal: TBD, trending to be a very good move

Trading Kane: TBD

Trading ROR: failing

Trading for Skinner: win

Signing Reinhart to a bridge: win today, could be troubling long-term

Trading for Montour: TBD

Hiring Krueger:TBD

Signing Skinner: TBD, win today, but troubling long-term

Cap management: TBD, trending positively

 

Did I miss anything? (I think most of us agree he doesn’t get to claim Dahlin)

Edited June 13, 2019 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Botterill’s significant moves, graded

Hiring Housley: fail

Overhauling the amateur scouting squad: TBD

 Building depth: meh at best (Sheary, Scandella, Pominville, Beaulieu, Hutton, Pilut, Wilson, Pouliot, Josefson...)

Overhauling the development system: TBD, trending positively

Signing Eichel To long-term deal: TBD, trending to be a very good move

Trading Kane: TBD

Trading ROR: failing

Trading for Skinner: win

Signing Reinhart to a bridge: win today, could be troubling long-term

Trading for Montour: TBD

Hiring Krueger:TBD

Signing Skinner: TBD, win today, but troubling long-term

Cap management: TBD, trending positively

 

Did I miss anything? (I think most of us agree he doesn’t get to claim Dahlin)

Disagree.  He purposely fielded a terrible team the first year to get us out from under TM's cap mistakes and to do a mini tank.  How else do  you describe signing Josefson, Pouliot, Nolan, Griffith, Tennyson and others? 

[PerreaultForever]

Lots of "TBD" on that list. 

Let's see, what has he actually done that we know for sure is good?

Trading for Skinner - yes.

Drafting Dahlin - lucky but yes. 

Drafting Luukkonen - looks like a yes. 

Improving Rochester - yes.

Anything else?

 

[Thorner]

35 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Botterill’s significant moves, graded

Hiring Housley: fail

Overhauling the amateur scouting squad: TBD

 Building depth: meh at best (Sheary, Scandella, Pominville, Beaulieu, Hutton, Pilut, Wilson, Pouliot, Josefson...)

Overhauling the development system: TBD, trending positively

Signing Eichel To long-term deal: TBD, trending to be a very good move

Trading Kane: TBD

Trading ROR: failing

Trading for Skinner: win

Signing Reinhart to a bridge: win today, could be troubling long-term

Trading for Montour: TBD

Hiring Krueger:TBD

Signing Skinner: TBD, win today, but troubling long-term

Cap management: TBD, trending positively

 

Did I miss anything? (I think most of us agree he doesn’t get to claim Dahlin)

One unqualified "win". 

His drafting seems promising, is that counted under "Overhauling the development system"?

Edited June 13, 2019 by Thorny

[dudacek]

We’ve seen positive signs from the scouting staff like Lukkonen and Laaksonen, and we had a really good year in Rochester, but building a deep pipeline is something you simply can’t pass judgement on until you see a steady stream of NHLers. 

It should take five years to begin fairly grading this. It’s been two.

50 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Disagree.  He purposely fielded a terrible team the first year to get us out from under TM's cap mistakes and to do a mini tank.  How else do  you describe signing Josefson, Pouliot, Nolan, Griffith, Tennyson and others? 

First of all, he got Dahlin with lottery balls. It was the definition of luck, the luckiest thing to happen to the Sabres since they were forced to play Hasek.

Secondly, I’d describe Josefson etc. as a series of bad free agent placeholders from a GM who either overrated their abilities, or underrated the needs of his team. I’ve seen no evidence he tanked, and if he did, that was pretty stupid in a system where you are more likely to pick 4th than 1st in a year where there was no Eichel runner up prize.

Edited June 13, 2019 by dudacek

[Thorner]

21 minutes ago, dudacek said:

We’ve seen positive signs from the scouting staff like Lukkonen and Laaksonen, and we had a really good year in Rochester, but building a deep pipeline is something you simply can’t pass judgement on until you see a steady stream of NHLers. 

It should take five years to begin fairly grading this. It’s been two.

First of all, he got Dahlin with lottery balls. It was the definition of luck, the luckiest thing to happen to the Sabres since they were forced to play Hasek.

Secondly, I’d describe Josefson etc. as a series of bad free agent placeholders from a GM who either overrated their abilities, or underrated the needs of his team. I’ve seen no evidence he tanked, and if he did, that was pretty stupid in a system where you are more likely to pick 4th than 1st in a year where there was no Eichel runner up prize.

I don't necessarily agree to a 5 year timeline. I lean more towards 3. At least if you are speaking about the judgment of a GM's work as a whole and not specifically just pipeline development. 

[tom webster]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

We’ve seen positive signs from the scouting staff like Lukkonen and Laaksonen, and we had a really good year in Rochester, but building a deep pipeline is something you simply can’t pass judgement on until you see a steady stream of NHLers. 

It should take five years to begin fairly grading this. It’s been two.

First of all, he got Dahlin with lottery balls. It was the definition of luck, the luckiest thing to happen to the Sabres since they were forced to play Hasek.

Secondly, I’d describe Josefson etc. as a series of bad free agent placeholders from a GM who either overrated their abilities, or underrated the needs of his team. I’ve seen no evidence he tanked, and if he did, that was pretty stupid in a system where you are more likely to pick 4th than 1st in a year where there was no Eichel runner up prize.

Lasksonen is not his.

[pi2000]

I liked the Montour deal.

But not starting Mittlestadt and Thompson in Rochester was a failure. 

Hutton signing, meh.

[Zamboni]

It’s a situation ...

I’m more of a glass half full kinda guy usually and not a Debbie downer negative Nancy. So I’ll say this ...

He should have done more during the season once the losses started piling up.

I understand why he didn’t fire Housley during the season. He truly believed in him and wanted to see if he can right the sinking ship. It’s not the worst thought and hope to have as a GM. What’s done is done. 

Firing Housley was the right thing to do and the timing was right too. It remains to be seen if RK is the answer. For JB’s sake, he better be.

ROR trade should have been better. It created a massive hole that may take several seasons to replace. It’s been talked to death over and over. Enough said.

I know all GM’s do this, but I’m glad he’s not shy about looking to Euro leagues to grab help. For both the Sabres and the Amerks.

Amerks look the strongest and the most complete they’ve looked in years. Like all teams they have holes to address still. 

Glad he moved Kane.

Glad he signed Skinner.

Glad he acquired Montour.

Getting Hutton was nice. He and Ullmark are a better tandem than how Lehner and Johnson played 2 years ago. Hutton is a great placeholder for Ullmark and perhaps UPL in a couple years. With better coaching, system and in game adjustments. The goaltending should be even better.

Draft picks he made are fine at this point. Work in progress naturally. 

He has moved a lot of guys in and out the two off seasons he’s had. At least in my opinion he has. 

 

 

 

[TrueBlueGED]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

Lasksonen is not his.

Huh? He was drafted in 2017, Botterill's first offseason as GM. Maybe confusing him with Olofsson or Asplund? 

[dudacek]

5 hours ago, Thorny said:

I don't necessarily agree to a 5 year timeline. I lean more towards 3. At least if you are speaking about the judgment of a GM's work as a whole and not specifically just pipeline development. 

I’m talking specifically pipeline

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

Lasksonen is not his.

3rd round in his first year.

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, Zamboni said:

It’s a situation ...

I’m more of a glass half full kinda guy usually and not a Debbie downer negative Nancy. So I’ll say this ...

He should have done more during the season once the losses started piling up.

I understand why he didn’t fire Housley during the season. He truly believed in him and wanted to see if he can right the sinking ship. It’s not the worst thought and hope to have as a GM. What’s done is done. 

Firing Housley was the right thing to do and the timing was right too. It remains to be seen if RK is the answer. For JB’s sake, he better be.

ROR trade should have been better. It created a massive hole that may take several seasons to replace. It’s been talked to death over and over. Enough said.

I know all GM’s do this, but I’m glad he’s not shy about looking to Euro leagues to grab help. For both the Sabres and the Amerks.

Amerks look the strongest and the most complete they’ve looked in years. Like all teams they have holes to address still. 

Glad he moved Kane.

Glad he signed Skinner.

Glad he acquired Montour.

Getting Hutton was nice. He and Ullmark are a better tandem than how Lehner and Johnson played 2 years ago. Hutton is a great placeholder for Ullmark and perhaps UPL in a couple years. With better coaching, system and in game adjustments. The goaltending should be even better.

Draft picks he made are fine at this point. Work in progress naturally. 

He has moved a lot of guys in and out the two off seasons he’s had. At least in my opinion he has. 

 

 

 

Not firing Housley midseason wasn't necessarily entirely his decision.  Pretty sure the Pegulas wanted Housley (don't have proof of that, but the hire reeked of Brandon & Botterill was rumored to like somebody else back then too).

Botterill wasn't going to fire him right after the play started to tail off (though in hindsight ...) & without bringing in reinforcements after Berglund walked, how does he say "it's the coach, not the Eichel & Hutton injuries & lack of a 2C" before the All Star break?

And by the time the season was hopeless, if the owners liked the guy (& they seemed to), can see them saying "let him ride it out."  Botterill canned him the day after this debacle was done.

Agreed that with the way things played out, he was fired at the appropriate time; but not entirely convinced Housley was his guy.

[nfreeman]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Disagree.  He purposely fielded a terrible team the first year to get us out from under TM's cap mistakes and to do a mini tank.  How else do  you describe signing Josefson, Pouliot, Nolan, Griffith, Tennyson and others? 

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

First of all, he got Dahlin with lottery balls. It was the definition of luck, the luckiest thing to happen to the Sabres since they were forced to play Hasek.

Secondly, I’d describe Josefson etc. as a series of bad free agent placeholders from a GM who either overrated their abilities, or underrated the needs of his team. I’ve seen no evidence he tanked, and if he did, that was pretty stupid in a system where you are more likely to pick 4th than 1st in a year where there was no Eichel runner up prize.

@dudacekbeat me to it.  There is NFW that JB tanked that first season -- it would've been an idiotic move due to the low odds of landing Dahlin, and JB isn't stupid.  And there were no tank-like moves that were also cap-related.

 

[tom webster]

3 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Huh? He was drafted in 2017, Botterill's first offseason as GM. Maybe confusing him with Olofsson or Asplund? 

First,

Man, I’m getting old. Would have swore GMTM drafted him.

 

Second,

I don’t give JBOT any credit or blame for 2017 draft other then maybe Casey. He was hired six weeks before draft and is on record as relying on GMTM’s staff and his rating method. 

Furthermore, most NHL GM’s rely almost entirely on their staff after the first, maybe second round. GMTM was one of few GM’s that was hands on when it came to actually going out and watching prospects.

[LGR4GM]

4 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Huh? He was drafted in 2017, Botterill's first offseason as GM. Maybe confusing him with Olofsson or Asplund? 

Should have taken David Farrance at #89 and Laaksonen at #99 but Bryson at least has a shot. 

[TrueBlueGED]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Should have taken David Farrance at #89 and Laaksonen at #99 but Bryson at least has a shot. 

Your ability to get worked up over mid-round picks never ceases to amaze me. I don't mean that critically, either. You obviously enjoy deep diving the draft, so good on you. I just can't get myself to care about draft picks after maybe pick 15 in the first round. All these guys are 3+ years away from mattering.

Edited June 13, 2019 by TrueBlueGED

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Your ability to get worked up over mid-round picks never ceases to amaze me. I don't mean that critically, either. You obviously enjoy deep diving the draft, so good on you. I just can't get myself to care about draft picks after maybe pick 15 in the first round. All these guys are 3+ years away from mattering.

Yea but if GMTM had drafted the way I wanted in 2015, Brock Boeser would be a Sabre. 3 years comes quick and if you start successfully drafting it isn't 3years away, it is every year. Imagine if you made Bourbon and so 15 years ago you started the process of taking 1/10th of your barrels and putting them away. You have done that for 15 years and now every year you get a 15yr old bourbon. The initial wait sucked but now you reap those rewards every year. 

For example in 2015 we picked up Guhle. That directly allowed us to get Montour. You always gotta draft good and you have to hit on 1 of those picks in rounds 3-7 each year to really make it count. 

[Doohicksie]

6 hours ago, tom webster said:

Lasksonen is not his.

[Doohicksie]

4 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Huh? He was drafted in 2017, Botterill's first offseason as GM. Maybe confusing him with Olofsson or Asplund? 

 

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m talking specifically pipeline

3rd round in his first year.