OT: The Spoilerrific Avengers: Endgame Thread

[shrader]

@..., you started out by saying that Loki is back. But then later you say that all of the changes create their own universe. I’m on board with that, which means Loki isn’t actually back. He exists in his own parallel timeline now thanks to this movie. 

That same thing happens with Cap too. He lived a full life with Peggy Carter in another separate time line. He can’t live that full life with her without completely changing everything, particularly anything hydra related. “Honey, you know that shield group you formed? Yeah, most of them are actually hydra.”

so he’s in that parallel universe and must have used pym particles to get back there at the end. 

 

What i I really want to know is what was the wrong choice that the Ancient One made previously. I’d like for it to be something more than just not handing the stone to Banner in a previous time loop. 

[...]

I did not say "all of the changes create their own universe" I said "each timeline is its own universe".  Which, I admit, is probably splitting hairs when it comes to the mechanics of realities.

In other words, there is only one timeline per individual.  You can not go back and alter the current timeline - the timeline you're on already contains the alterations made in the past.  The Rogers thing at the end was a bit sloppy - it's not possible for Rogers et al to have been on the same timeline before he went back to marry Peggy, conveniently showing up to put a "Cap" on the movie (see what I did?).  In the Rogers (et al) timeline we've been following, Peggy married someone else as far as I recall.  Of course, if we had old Cap'n A on the timeline we had been following all along, he could have advised and helped to avoid a lot of tragedy, so I think the timeline we were on at the end of the movie was different than what it was at the beginning.  

So, that's a long way of saying we might be agreeing on this more than I think.  You're right, the Rogers thing at the end spoiled the certainty that Loki is back in whatever timeline we left at the end of the movie.

 

31 minutes ago, shrader said:

What i I really want to know is what was the wrong choice that the Ancient One made previously. I’d like for it to be something more than just not handing the stone to Banner in a previous time loop. 

Good question, I forgot about that one.

Edited May 6, 2019 by ...
The Ghost of Dwight Drane

[WildCard]

On 4/29/2019 at 1:00 PM, MODO Hockey said:

The movie was watchable at most, mediocre movie. The jokes were so bad that i was a shamed in the theater, give the movie 5.1 out of 10, mostly for the cgi.

Same. The movie was meh at best 

[JujuFish]

59 minutes ago, ... said:

Loki, obviously, is back, so look for him in this one.

Loki will be getting his own TV series on the upcoming Disney+ streaming service.

[...]

"That was a difficult winter. A blizzard had trapped half our battalion behind the German line. Steve... Captain Rogers, he fought his way through a HYDRA blockade that had pinned our allies down for months. He saved over a thousand men, including the man who would... who would become my husband as it turned out."

―Peggy Carter

[...]

1 minute ago, JujuFish said:

Loki will be getting his own TV series on the upcoming Disney+ streaming service.

Yeah, I think the timelines will be different. I'll have to wait until this one is streaming so I can see it again and figure out if they are trying to tie that timeline to the current one, or if now we're going to have to suffer through multiple timelines so they can do in these things what they want rather than keep them all connected.

[...]

So, FWIW, I just saw this tonight, so I'm new at the spoiler stuff.  Apparently this timeline/Rogers thing has already been discussed:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/avengers-endgame-captain-america-ending-isnt-what-it-seems-1205370

[LGR4GM]

10 hours ago, ... said:

You all will note that Steve Rogers did not "come back" with Mjolnir. I think the next Thor movie is him getting back on the path we saw him on at the end of Infinity War (while Quill searches for Gamora). Loki, obviously, is back, so look for him in this one.

I agree with those who thought the Thor arc went too far.  I did find it funny that when they were in the Asgardian Palace, all of the Asgard guards were referring to Rocket as "rabbit" like Thor does, which always gave me a chuckle in the other movies.

I'm not happy the Tony Stark era has passed by, but I thought that arc was very nicely done, totally the best part of the movie aside from the main plot.  I wonder if we see Marvel trying to strengthen Spider Man's importance to the MCU based on how much he meant to Stark.

The Cap'n America arc was fine, I thought.  Predictable.  I don't see how Falcon can become a replacement for Cap'm America unless he undergoes the same treatment Rogers and Bucky had.

I am disappointed in how Dr. Strange was used to forward, or, more accurately, not used to forward the End Game.  This is actually the most disappointing part of the movie, IMHO.  Essentially, the only thing Strange did was keep Stark alive at the end of Infinity War, and, thus, put them on the 1/14,000,605 road to success.  Having sucked up all of the pre-movie theories, I would have preferred something about manipulating the Time Stone or something.

However, they shot that down when Hulk was talking with the Ancient One where she explained (rightfully) whatever thread of time you're on is your only present and your actions on that timeline, no matter where you jump on, do not affect the future of that timeline. because those actions are the future of that timeline.  Lacking in that explanation, and therefore leading to some of confusion in this thread, I think, is a reinforcement of the concept that each timeline is its own universe.  Each individual is on their own timeline and regardless of whether you go forward or backward in time, it is always still the individual's present.  

I won't say I'm disappointed with it, but I think @TrueBlueGED and I are about 95% in agreement on the film overall.  

 

My advice, don't do this in the future. It just sets expectations in your head that the movie will never hit. 

[LTS]

On 5/5/2019 at 1:05 AM, Hoss said:

ban me from this forum i don’t care but every time i read this dumb ***** i just laugh in the face of whoever said it. it’s incredibly unintelligent and insecure.

so at the absolute worse what a few seconds of screen showing a handful of women with superpowers banding together did was pander to a specific group of people. what a crime.

it’s a movie about superheroes, how dare they pander to nerd culture.

there’s a couple hot guys in it, how dare they pander to those attracted to the male figure.

thor is fat but still able to fight masterfully, how dare they pander to the obese.

it’s not pandering, it’s called inclusivity (and not even in the way that triggers old dweebs who want to go back to when women were considered the property of their husbands). it’s a three-hour movie for christ’s sake. because they had a single small moment showing that women might choose to unite their powers in a single moment is “ridiculous.” get outta here with that lazy garbage.

in reacting to that scene in this way it’s clear you’ve got a major issue that needs some serious exorcising.

captain marvel got a fair bit of criticism for pandering to women which is hilarious because there’s a million male superheroes and nobody ever complained about that. when we left the theatre with my friend’s fiancé she noted that she never really cared about the superhero movies but legitimately enjoyed that one because she looks like her. that’s dope. that’s what matters.

Your response is really over the top and incredibly presumptive. Bringing fire to a subject matter that is prone to exploding isn't always the best choice. 

I will admittedly say that I rolled my eyes at that moment in the movie.  The reason?  It was simply too contrived.  In that way I feel that it undermines the message it is supposed to send. The message they had been building through a few movies up to that point. If they had simply let the scene come together organically without stopping to call it out and almost make it completely separate it would have been that much more powerful.  Instead, it leads to these kinds of discussions where people mock the scene because it feels out of place with the flow of the battle. It's almost like someone thought, "we better throw in a scene to placate the people who think women superheroes are important".  In that way, it cheapens the overall message.  They could have accomplished more by creating longer engagement between Thanos and Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch.  They could have made some of the "bigger" battles involving females. They could have done all that and sent a far more powerful message than just creating a single scene that would be so obvious that it would not need to called out and then they went ahead and called it out anyway.

I really enjoyed Captain Marvel, and Scarlet Witch has long been one of my favorite heroes (pre-movies).  In fact, I want more from her, because she's seriously kick ass.  That said, let me ask you about the statement I bolded, and it's just something to consider.

In giving praise the your friend's fiance do you not also provide justification for the male mindset?  She related to Captain Marvel, so suddenly she cared.  She did not care about the male superheroes.  In that way, she's saying that unless they are like me, I'm less likely to care about them. Males relating to male superheroes and not caring about female superheroes would be the equivalent.  I understand that your response may be "well, there are so many more male superheroes."  That's a true statement, and in that way there is an inequality. However, that blame can only be put on those who create the superheroes and not those who choose to like one superhero over another, correct?  

Note: This is different than people who say a female can't be a superhero.  I feel I need to make that point abundantly clear. That sentimentality is beyond absurd.

 

9 hours ago, ... said:

So, FWIW, I just saw this tonight, so I'm new at the spoiler stuff.  Apparently this timeline/Rogers thing has already been discussed:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/avengers-endgame-captain-america-ending-isnt-what-it-seems-1205370

It's an interesting, fairly well thought out, theory.  If that were to hold it would speak to incredible planning on the part of the Marvel Studios. 

For those who wanted more from some characters, I still maintain that those with reduced story points are the ones who will carry MCU Phase 4.  There will be a Dr. Strange 2, there's already Spider-Man (which officially ends MCU Phase 3 and transitions to 4). There will be Guardians 3 (Asguardians? Either way). There's undoubtedly more Captain Marvel (she should be one of the main characters from here on out).

The questions I have will be, how much more Black Panther will there be?  Will they move the Earth bound characters to simply fill the "TV series" role on the Disney+ streaming service?

 

[shrader]

It's funny, I didn't even notice the scene we're talking about right now.  But anyway...

18 minutes ago, LTS said:

 

and Scarlet Witch has long been one of my favorite heroes (pre-movies).  In fact, I want more from her, because she's seriously kick ass.

 

 

They certainly seem to be building her up quite a bit.  She kicked the crap out of Thanos.  I wonder if they ever do try to work in the X-Men if she would wind up being the vehicle for that.

[...]

1 hour ago, LTS said:

Note: This is different than people who say a female can't be a superhero.  I feel I need to make that point abundantly clear. That sentimentality is beyond absurd.

 

It's an interesting, fairly well thought out, theory.  If that were to hold it would speak to incredible planning on the part of the Marvel Studios. 

For those who wanted more from some characters, I still maintain that those with reduced story points are the ones who will carry MCU Phase 4.  There will be a Dr. Strange 2, there's already Spider-Man (which officially ends MCU Phase 3 and transitions to 4). There will be Guardians 3 (Asguardians? Either way). There's undoubtedly more Captain Marvel (she should be one of the main characters from here on out).

The questions I have will be, how much more Black Panther will there be?  Will they move the Earth bound characters to simply fill the "TV series" role on the Disney+ streaming service?

 

On the bolded, and this is not really directed at you, just jumping off the point: certain people, like Hollywood itself (generalizing) are "women-sensitive" these days to an absurd, immature level.  When the point in the movie arrived last night, my wife and I both looked at each other and said "girl power" and laughed.  My wife, BTW, is a woman. 

It was contrived and an obvious attempt to make a statement.  In movies like this where the line between reasonable suspension of disbelief and jumping the shark is so razor thin, they need to be very careful with maintaining that line.  When they throw in a contemporary, pandering message in an intense fight scene they leap off the line, blowing through the fourth wall and like snapping a finger (I did it again!), break the spell they worked 2:45 hours to put us in.  Stupid.

Also, philosophically speaking, the idea that someone starts to care about a character simply because they look like them and that this little moment "matters" in some big, sociological, evolutionary way is pathetic and depressing.

On the non-bolded: they seemed to have had some forethought early enough in the MCU series that building in references and planning how they're going to get out of the painted corner was built in and became more sophisticated as they went along.  I think the Star Trek reboot probably did a lot to give them the confidence to consider developing totally new timelines in film.  Obviously, the comic books have been doing it long prior, but film audiences are not comic book audiences.

I need to read more about "Phase 4".  I would like to see more Dr. Strange, etc, and there is still a ton to tap into from the Marvel comics.  I think the problem they're likely to have is finding someone like Robert Downey Jr. and, to a lesser degree, Chris Evans to anchor the next phase. 

I would argue that without Downey Jr. nailing Iron Man, the MCU would be facing the same scrutiny and issues the DC movies have faced.  As much as I like Benedict Cumberbatch, he's not Downey Jr. playing Tony Stark.  Brie Larson is one-dimensional and boring.  Tom Holland is good but they need to make him grow up, fast.  Zoe Saldana has some presence that I enjoy, but, again, none of the remaining stable seems strong enough.

It will be interesting to see how they split things up, and I agree that we're likely to see a lot more separation now that Disney has their streaming service coming.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by ...
The Ghost of Dwight Drane

[shrader]

1 hour ago, ... said:

On the bolded, and this is not really directed at you, just jumping off the point: certain people, like Hollywood itself (generalizing) are "women-sensitive" these days to an absurd, immature level.  When the point in the movie arrived last night, my wife and I both looked at each other and said "girl power" and laughed.  My wife, BTW, is a woman.

I don't know why, but the bolded line got a big laugh from me.

As for the rest and reading up on phase 4.  Good luck with that. They have not announced a thing yet about any films that will follow Spiderman.  I wonder if some interesting storyline driving moment may happen there and they want to keep it completely off the radar until the movie is released.

[...]

2 hours ago, shrader said:

I don't know why, but the bolded line got a big laugh from me.

As for the rest and reading up on phase 4.  Good luck with that. They have not announced a thing yet about any films that will follow Spiderman.  I wonder if some interesting storyline driving moment may happen there and they want to keep it completely off the radar until the movie is released.

Because it was meant to?  Mission accomplished!

On Phaze 4, I thought I saw a few references to it in the film-culture media I was scouring last night.  I'll post stuff whenever I get to it again if you want.

[LTS]

 

2 hours ago, shrader said:

I don't know why, but the bolded line got a big laugh from me.

As for the rest and reading up on phase 4.  Good luck with that. They have not announced a thing yet about any films that will follow Spiderman.  I wonder if some interesting storyline driving moment may happen there and they want to keep it completely off the radar until the movie is released.

Well... if you watched the Spider-Man Trailer #2 today you got some pretty big clues to where things are going.  

[shrader]

36 minutes ago, LTS said:

 

Well... if you watched the Spider-Man Trailer #2 today you got some pretty big clues to where things are going.  

Thanks for the heads up.  I was talking to a friend on saturday who told me they were holding off on a 2nd trailer due to spoiler reasons.  Time to check that out.

 

edit: @..., I meant to say that your line earlier got a bigger reaction from me than it should have.

Edited May 6, 2019 by shrader