If fans could fire an owner, would you fire Terry?

[Stoner]

23 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Cumulative as in the Sabres? Bills? Both?

From 2011? So 8 years?

again ... link. Thanks!

 

11-12 to 18-19. Sabres, of course. You have to go year by year and add up the cap space.

[Zamboni]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

11-12 to 18-19. Sabres, of course. You have to go year by year and add up the cap space.

I can’t find it. 

For the third time... can you please post the link to the data you are seeing. 

Thanks in advance. Or are you making this stuff up? 

[Stoner]

spotrac.com. One T. You'll have to hunt around like I did. There's not one page with the Sabres' cap space shown year by year, at least not that I could see.

Do you really doubt that the Sabres are that much under the cap since 2011? Putting ***** teams on the ice saves a lot of money.

And, no, my point isn't that Terry is cheap. It's that if he gets credit for non-salary cap spending like eating coaches' salaries, fixing up the lockerroom, scouting, etc., it should be pointed out he's saved a ton on the salary side to invest in those things.

[Zamboni]

49 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

spotrac.com. One T. You'll have to hunt around like I did. There's not one page with the Sabres' cap space shown year by year, at least not that I could see.

Do you really doubt that the Sabres are that much under the cap since 2011? Putting ***** teams on the ice saves a lot of money.

And, no, my point isn't that Terry is cheap. It's that if he gets credit for non-salary cap spending like eating coaches' salaries, fixing up the lockerroom, scouting, etc., it should be pointed out he's saved a ton on the salary side to invest in those things.

I can’t find what you are seeing. 

So I’ll just reply blindly to the original point, which isn’t my preference...

55 mil. Spread out over 8 years is an average 6.87 mil.

Is it more cap room than most GM’s operate? Yes.

Is it massively ZOMG lower? Not really.

Most wise GM’s (or if you prefer, owners, although it usually isn’t) give themselves 3-6 mil. in cap room for “just in case” emergency scenarios. You know this.

Dumb or risk taking GM’s go right against the cap (and often get burned) with less then 2 mil. to play with during the season. You also know this.

So 55 mil. over 8 years isn’t anything THAT abnormal. But it seems like you brought it up like it’s an anomaly or way off from what other GM’s (or if you prefer owners) do. It’s definitely slightly more. Meh ... no big deal.

Also of note.... you know Pegula was 100% on board with the tanking plan to get Reinhart, and one of McDavid/Eichel. So that absolutely required to shed most of the higher salary guys (who are often the most talented) to all but guarantee a bottom finish. Which in turn threw them well below the cap. 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Zamboni

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

This is unintentionally funny.

Intentional.  But clearly too subtle for most. 

[Darryl Shannon's +/-]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

spotrac.com. One T. You'll have to hunt around like I did. There's not one page with the Sabres' cap space shown year by year, at least not that I could see.

Do you really doubt that the Sabres are that much under the cap since 2011? Putting ***** teams on the ice saves a lot of money.

And, no, my point isn't that Terry is cheap. It's that if he gets credit for non-salary cap spending like eating coaches' salaries, fixing up the lockerroom, scouting, etc., it should be pointed out he's saved a ton on the salary side to invest in those things.

This isn't counting the buyouts, is it?  Leino, Ehrhoff and Hodgson.  That should close that 55M gap. 

The only time I've ever wavered about Pegula not using his money fully for the good of the team was when he supposedly refused to pay O'Reilly's bonus prior to trade.  

If memory serves, the regehr trade was sweetened by taking the corpse of Kotalik too. 

I'd rather see more money thrown to the fans to make our experience better. Lower concessions and items from team store. Give more to STH's.  Inject life into the arena, have areas where kids can play. Get live bands. Be creative, have fun. 

 

[msw2112]

I think Terry is a good owner.  It's been a rough ride and there hasn't been success yet, but he'll get there.  A few thoughts:

1)  The tank:  whether you agree with it or not, there was precedent for it being a successful strategy (Pittsburgh and Chicago)

2)  Hiring Black and others from the Pittsburgh organization - again, it makes sense to bring in people who have been successful elsewhere

3)  LaFontaine and Murray - I admit that this whole scenario was very odd and can't explain it - LaLa seemed to make sense at the time, not sure about Murray

4)  Bylsma - The guy won a cup and finished at the top of the standings (with highly talented young high draft picks), so it made sense

5)  Botterill - Was a big part of a very successful organization, well educated & smart guy, played in the league and in the market

6)  Housley - He was widely considered the top assistant available - the hot coaching candidate on the rise - also played in the league and in the market

7)  Always willing to spend the money for free agents, facilities, etc.

8) Made a huge effort to hire Babcock - the best available coach in years, but Babcock elected to go to Toronto.  I think that if Babcock had signed, the Sabres would be a playoff team team and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

9)  His vast investments in the City of Buffalo and the redevelopment of downtown are icing on the cake.

I think that Terry has taken similar steps with the Bills.  I couldn't understand the Rex hire and his support of Brandon, but all of his moves were well-intentioned and I think that he FINALLY got it right with Beane and McDermott and the same will eventually happen with the Sabres.  I think Botterill can be successful if paired with a good coach.

Edited April 15, 2019 by msw2112

[That Aud Smell]

On 4/13/2019 at 11:31 PM, PASabreFan said:

We're up to almost 26% of a decent sample size of hardcore fans who would fire the owner if they could. That's pretty remarkable.

Given how online takery skews negative and how bad the team’s been for so long, I wasn’t sure what you meant.

On 4/14/2019 at 12:10 AM, dudacek said:

After eight consecutive seasons out of the playoffs, including three years where they finished dead last, and everyone else has been fired? Do you mean it’s remarkable it’s so low?

I thought maybe this is what was meant.

On 4/14/2019 at 9:36 AM, PASabreFan said:

No. To actually want the guy gone, given how effectively he insulated himself and build up credit for himself? Remarkable. 

I don’t follow this.

[Stoner]

3 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

Given how online takery skews negative and how bad the team’s been for so long, I wasn’t sure what you meant.

I thought maybe this is what was meant.

I don’t follow this.

More than one in four serious fans want to send the man over the Falls without a barrel — we're not talking about simply disapproving of the job he's done. They want him gone, even with all the non-hockey stuff he did that made people like him (the presser, establishing himself as a fan, Harbour Centre, buying the Bills, etc.). I find that remarkable. I don't know how many ways I can say it.

[nfreeman]

Something in here is remarkable, all right — it’s the Orwellian spin of insisting that a 75-25 rejection of a tiresome crusade somehow constitutes a victory for the crusader.   

[Swedesessed]

I think Terry is an owner that has great intentions and his 'heart is in the right place' I truly believe Terry wants to go right by Buffalo and provide the fans with a great product and win because he genuinely cares about the city and the teams that he owns.

But as we know, caring and being a fan just isn't enough.

Sabres need a President at the top to oversee everything top to bottom. I still think JBot is the right man for this job and wish we hired this kind of GM back in 2014 and THEN hired a guy like GMTM now after the rebuild went successful. We had it reverse.

 

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Something in here is remarkable, all right — it’s the Orwellian spin of insisting that a 75-25 rejection of a tiresome crusade somehow constitutes a victory for the crusader.   

Such is the age we live in.

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

More than one in four serious fans want to send the man over the Falls without a barrel — we're not talking about simply disapproving of the job he's done. They want him gone, even with all the non-hockey stuff he did that made people like him (the presser, establishing himself as a fan, Harbour Centre, buying the Bills, etc.). I find that remarkable. I don't know how many ways I can say it.

I understand you find it remarkable. For my part, I find it somewhat ... remarkable as well, but probably for precisely the opposite reason you do. (I'd really thought it'd be a majority of the votes saying "fire the owner," or close to it -- given how badly the team has performed since the 2011-2012 season.)

In any case, if you look again at my post, I was saying that I didn't follow a specific part of your thinking. And still don't.

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Something in here is remarkable, all right — it’s the Orwellian spin of insisting that a 75-25 rejection of a tiresome crusade somehow constitutes a victory for the crusader.   

For my part, I generally don't find @PASabreFan's criticism of Terry Pegula to be tiresome. If anything, his skepticism about the guy proved prescient.

[nfreeman]

4 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

For my part, I generally don't find @PASabreFan's criticism of Terry Pegula to be tiresome. If anything, his skepticism about the guy proved prescient.

I think the jury is still well out.  The on-ice results have been terrible, but as I've said previously, I think evaluating ownership on those terms requires a much longer time horizon than 8 seasons, especially when the idiotic tank is dropped smack in the middle of that period.  And the "I don't trust these rich DBs -- I know he's trying to rip us off somehow" theme that the OP has repeatedly expressed hasn't been borne out in the slightest.

[Stoner]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I think the jury is still well out.  The on-ice results have been terrible, but as I've said previously, I think evaluating ownership on those terms requires a much longer time horizon than 8 seasons, especially when the idiotic tank is dropped smack in the middle of that period.  And the "I don't trust these rich DBs -- I know he's trying to rip us off somehow" theme that the OP has repeatedly expressed hasn't been borne out in the slightest.

You know you've won the argument when people feel the need to start making stuff up about your position.

[That Aud Smell]

4 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I think the jury is still well out.  The on-ice results have been terrible, but as I've said previously, I think evaluating ownership on those terms requires a much longer time horizon than 8 seasons, especially when the idiotic tank is dropped smack in the middle of that period.  And the "I don't trust these rich DBs -- I know he's trying to rip us off somehow" theme that the OP has repeatedly expressed hasn't been borne out in the slightest.

I will continue to disagree with the 8-season sample size being too small. And will again not touch the tank issue.

I'm not sure where the "I don't trust the rich DBs" stuff is coming from. I know I've grown to distrust or mistrust (?) Terry Pegula as a pro sports owner. But it's not because he's rich.** It's because he makes bad decisions.

** Being absurdly rich is a prerequisite for the role he occupies, after all.

[Wyldnwoody44]

A billionaire bought the team, he's adding to Buffalo in general, and there's only so much he can do. 

 

I place the blame on the players sucking, not playing with heart, whatever ya wanna call it. 

Terry has made some questionable calls, but he's a billionaire owner with good intentions and he gets to make that call every day of the week. 

I guess the alternative is a hockey team in Houston and no more SS, ill pass on that 

[That Aud Smell]

1 minute ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

A billionaire bought the team, he's adding to Buffalo in general, and there's only so much he can do. 

I place the blame on the players sucking, not playing with heart, whatever ya wanna call it. 

Terry has made some questionable calls, but he's a billionaire owner with good intentions and he gets to make that call every day of the week. 

I guess the alternative is a hockey team in Houston and no more SS, ill pass on that 

I tend to agree with @PASabreFan that this is regularly stated as a proposition that tends to insulate Terry Pegula from criticism. And I also tend to agree that it's, at best, a questionable proposition, and, at worst, a fallacious one.

Hehe. I said fallacious.

Also, I think I may now understand what PA was getting at with Terry being insulated.

[atoq]

Can someone please summarize how the Pegula's have invested in Buffalo outside of the sports franchises? This is an honest question because its been mentioned in this thread a few times and not an attempt at snark or a reflection of my views on the OP. I am familiar with the Harbor Center and Fairmont Creamery Building, but have been living out of the area for awhile and am not sure if there are additional projects in development.

[Wyldnwoody44]

35 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I tend to agree with @PASabreFan that this is regularly stated as a proposition that tends to insulate Terry Pegula from criticism. And I also tend to agree that it's, at best, a questionable proposition, and, at worst, a fallacious one.

Hehe. I said fallacious.

Also, I think I may now understand what PA was getting at with Terry being insulated.

With all the time negatives that OSP had, the one good was a no move clause which was awesome and completely changes the way I look at him. 

So it was OSP that was insulated more than TP. So Terry simply agreed to it. 

Let me ask, if you became a billionaire tomorrow and bought the Sabres, would you be inclined to tinker a little, at least in the beginning? I know damn well I'd be putting my hands on that team and I have some semblance of self control (albeit, not a ton) 

Would you (not you personally) rather have a Jerry Jones owner, or an owner that you don't hear a peep from, irregardless of how the team is doing?

TP is far from perfect and this subject goes into deep layers I'm not familiar with, and probably won't become familiar with, but on the surface, I'm not going to hate on a guy that honestly seems like he is trying with good intentions. 

[That Aud Smell]

8 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

Let me ask, if you became a billionaire tomorrow and bought the Sabres, would you be inclined to tinker a little, at least in the beginning? I know damn well I'd be putting my hands on that team and I have some semblance of self control (albeit, not a ton) 

Would you (not you personally) rather have a Jerry Jones owner, or an owner that you don't hear a peep from, irregardless of how the team is doing?

TP is far from perfect and this subject goes into deep layers I'm not familiar with, and probably won't become familiar with, but on the surface, I'm not going to hate on a guy that honestly seems like he is trying with good intentions. 

I have no issue with any owner tinkering, or meddling, for that matter. It's their team.

The decisions just better be good ones, more times than not.

I'm not sure what you're asking in terms of the type of owner that I (but not me personally?) would prefer to have. If I do have a preference, it's for the sort of owner who's mostly hands-off on the sports personnel side of things. With that said, I understand the need and desire for an owner to have a hand in making decisions such as a decision to draft a franchise QB.

The decisions just better be good ones, more times than not.

I also tend to agree that Terry operates in good faith, with good intentions. Increasingly, that's not enough for me to say that I support him.

[Wyldnwoody44]

5 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I have no issue with any owner tinkering, or meddling, for that matter. It's their team.

The decisions just better be good ones, more times than not.

I'm not sure what you're asking in terms of the type of owner that I (but not me personally?) would prefer to have. If I do have a preference, it's for the sort of owner who's mostly hands-off on the sports personnel side of things. With that said, I understand the need and desire for an owner to have a hand in making decisions such as a decision to draft a franchise QB.

The decisions just better be good ones, more times than not.

I also tend to agree that Terry operates in good faith, with good intentions. Increasingly, that's not enough for me to say that I support him.

I get what you're saying, what decisions can ya point to that you would wholeheartedly say we're good and bad from Terry, just honestly curious? 

[That Aud Smell]

3 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

I get what you're saying, what decisions can ya point to that you would wholeheartedly say we're good and bad from Terry, just honestly curious? 

I can’t create an inventory right now.

I did recently create a short list of Terry’s bad decisions/bad decision making instances — in another thread, I think.

For present purposes: I think Terry is susceptible to being bamboozled — both by sycophants (Brandon) and bullsh1t artists (Ryan).

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, atoq said:

Can someone please summarize how the Pegula's have invested in Buffalo outside of the sports franchises? This is an honest question because its been mentioned in this thread a few times and not an attempt at snark or a reflection of my views on the OP. I am familiar with the Harbor Center and Fairmont Creamery Building, but have been living out of the area for awhile and am not sure if there are additional projects in development.

Some pretty big concerts, from what it seems in this thread.