MakeSabresGrr8Again Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 28 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: I know you aren't. I was just contrasting head coaching experience. Keefe has been a head coach more recently at a professional level. I think many view Martin as a failed head coach that we shouldn't give a 4th chance to. How long has Gronberg been coaching at a "professional" level? Just asking. I've been sold on him as our "out-of-the-box" choice over any AHL coach. He's coach professional NHL players and against them. The Swedes have 7 medals in the last 10 years (3 golds). I think he would do wonders for all the Swedes we have put our future up against. Again, just my opinion and you are much welcome to yours. I don't think we could go wrong either way though, but my choice would be ....Gronberg?
... Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said: This is the equivalent of the Bills hiring Dick Jauron. JBot will be on the curb in two years, Jack will be 25 and we will be starting our 4th rebuild in 10 years. Rinse repeat... Buffalo Sports main problem is not a curse, but a refusal to hire competent progressive management. It's a lack of understanding the fan base. We are far more sophisticated than the Pegulas give us credit for. When we boo the team, it's not simply because we want a winning team, like children would cry to get an ice cream cone. We boo because we understand exactly WTF is playing out before our eyes. Floating the Jacques Martin tease is an insult to the intelligence of your average Sabres fan, IMHO. Edited April 24, 2019 by ... The Ghost of Dwight Drane 3 1
French Collection Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 No to Martin. I think the league has passed him by. His resume won't wow the players or the fan base.
Eleven Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 28 minutes ago, ... said: Floating the Jacques Martin tease is an insult to the intelligence of your average Sabres fan, IMHO. Well, Botterill isn't the one who floated it. I'll blame him if he hires the guy, but I'm not going to blame him for the news of the day. 3
... Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 Just now, Eleven said: Well, Botterill isn't the one who floated it. I'll blame him if he hires the guy, but I'm not going to blame him for the news of the day. You know the source?
Eleven Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, ... said: You know the source? Everything I saw early mentioned the Sabres and the Sens in the same sentence, so I'm going with an educated guess that it was Martin or his agent, since neither team would report on what the other is doing. Edited April 24, 2019 by Eleven
nfreeman Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 Not psyched about Martin. Not psyched about Gronborg either -- I think they need someone who is familiar with the NHL game, including the players and coaches he'll be opposing. 1
Brawndo Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 If it’s Martin or Gronberg, they should just promote Taylor and give him veteran assistants. I do wonder if some of the names such as D.J. Smith or Sheldon Keefe have said No Thanks based on the turnover in the position? I really hope not
Gatorman0519 Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 58 minutes ago, ... said: It's a lack of understanding the fan base. We are far more sophisticated than the Pegulas give us credit for. When we boo the team, it's not simply because we want a winning team, like children would cry to get an ice cream cone. We boo because we understand exactly WTF is playing out before our eyes. Floating the Jacques Martin tease is an insult to the intelligence of your average Sabres fan, IMHO. Well said... I couldn’t agree more
Radar Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ... said: It's a lack of understanding the fan base. We are far more sophisticated than the Pegulas give us credit for. When we boo the team, it's not simply because we want a winning team, like children would cry to get an ice cream cone. We boo because we understand exactly WTF is playing out before our eyes. Floating the Jacques Martin tease is an insult to the intelligence of your average Sabres fan, IMHO. I hope you're not implying fans should hire a coach. Have you suffered through an hour of sports show call in. The concern I have about Martin is his age and time since being head coach. I could care less about personality and how great he is with media etc. Edited April 24, 2019 by Radar
Torpedo Forecheck Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 Just now, Radar said: I hope you're not implying fans should hire a coach. Have you suffered through an hour of sports show call in. Maybe it's a lack of understanding by the fanbase. I mean they have to know more than the guys in charge.
Eleven Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 19 minutes ago, nfreeman said: Not psyched about Martin. Not psyched about Gronborg either -- I think they need someone who is familiar with the NHL game, including the players and coaches he'll be opposing. Good point.
Thorner Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 1 hour ago, TrueBlueGED said: It's always funny to me how risk is framed. Martin is safe because he was a head coach who made the playoffs in the past. But that past was a decade ago. The guy hasn't been a head coach in 8 years. Eight! There's a huge risk to hiring him. Agree. Also, I don't agree with the post you were responding to, that he'd be likely to get them to the playoffs next year. If he did that, he might actually have been a good choice.
nfreeman Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, Brawndo said: I do wonder if some of the names such as D.J. Smith or Sheldon Keefe have said No Thanks based on the turnover in the position? I really hope not I think this is unfortunately pretty likely.
Thorner Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Brawndo said: If it’s Martin or Gronberg, they should just promote Taylor and give him veteran assistants. I do wonder if some of the names such as D.J. Smith or Sheldon Keefe have said No Thanks based on the turnover in the position? I really hope not If the Sabres have moved on to Martin I'd venture the wording that the Sabres FAILED to land McLellan seems more accurate. So I'd say that's certainly possible not only guys like that have said no, but also some of the vets. Edited April 24, 2019 by Thorny
WildCard Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 17 minutes ago, Brawndo said: If it’s Martin or Gronberg, they should just promote Taylor and give him veteran assistants. I do wonder if some of the names such as D.J. Smith or Sheldon Keefe have said No Thanks based on the turnover in the position? I really hope not Well and in a few more years, maybe even one, those guys can inherit Tampa/Toronto instead. Especially for Keefe; he's been with Dubas and all of these guys for years, he's just chomping at the bit to see Babcock go
MakeSabresGrr8Again Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 20 minutes ago, Eleven said: Good point. Many people think of Gronberg as a Swede only (not saying you are one of them). He has coached in the US at the college and CHL levels. He has coached NHL players and likely helped in their development also. He has coached against NHL players at the international level. He's not some inexperienced coach with a short resume and the Swedish team has won 7 medals in the last 10 years (3 golds). We also have Dahlin, Vickio, Asplund, Larsson, Pilut, and others in the system that could possibly flourish under him. 1
... Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, Radar said: I hope you're not implying fans should hire a coach. Have you suffered through an hour of sports show call in. The concern I have about Martin is his age and time since being head coach. I could care less about personality and how great he is with media etc. Obviously not. The callers to WGR are a mere sliver of the total fan base, so if you think that's who Sabres fans are you're pretty mistaken. Those are Sabres fans who call talk shows. This is not to say the info coming from WGR is poor, just the callers are, and many times it's difficult for the show hosts to hide their impatience with those callers. Do you know how big hockey is around here? How many kids and adults play in some sort of league? That in itself raises the understanding of the game and cognizance of what should or should not be done to escalate chances at winning. The general social atmosphere around here involves discussing hockey, discussing what the Sabres do. Nearly anyone interested in the team learns about hockey organically. Few people don't want to share what they think or know. I would consider this to be a sophisticated hockey market. Therefore, you can get away with a tank, like we did. You can explain what a re-building process is and it will buy the organization "time" because, generally, Sabres fans understand why things are they way they are and understand how the game works. Between what WGR talks about, the Athletic and the News, not to mention the entirety of the interwebz, we get a lot of solid information and education on hockey (just like anything else). People around here eat it up. We all know advanced stats exist, we all know they need to be used as a tool to aid in winning. The fans, in general, recognize: Murray was an attempt to be contenders within a short amount of time. Nolan was re-hired because fans love him and we needed to tank. Bylsma was a superficial hire based on availability, name recognition, with no real respect for the fact that he didn't earn his ring. Botterill was, perhaps, the first thoughtful hire by the Pegulas. Housely was a disaster that no one expected. So, now, do they retreat to the "we just need to get into the off-season to please them all" camp? Because if they go this route, the odds are good we're going to want this guy fired after a while, or that, like Martin's record (and Ruff's), he might get you to the big dance once, but you won't win it. The goal was to win Cups...with a "s". Or do they take a chance on someone new who is ostensibly on the "cutting edge" of hockey game management? Whose future in the NHL is yet unknown, but, like a first round pick, whose potential is unlimited? What do you think the fans would appreciate more? 1
Marvin Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 In some respects, no one can be a hire we can be satisfied with. Someone who has won a Cup as a head coach gets the brand that "aside from Scotty Bowman, no one has won a Cup with more than one team." Someone who has not won a Cup as an NHL coach is a retread and is unimaginative. Someone who does not have experience as an NHL head coach doesn't have experience. So what do we want? I can always give objections to anyone. On the other hand, I can live with Martin, Ruff, Keefe, Gronberg, etc. I can't think of anyone obvious who is available who would flat out excite me.
Curt Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Brawndo said: If it’s Martin or Gronberg, they should just promote Taylor and give him veteran assistants. I do wonder if some of the names such as D.J. Smith or Sheldon Keefe have said No Thanks based on the turnover in the position? I really hope not They don’t even have the option of talking to DJ Smith or Keefe yet, well I guess Smith can as of last night. Those guys have been working. Also it’s hard to invision one of them saying no thanks to even interviewing for a job that would be a massive massive promotion and pay raise, as well as fulfilling a major career goal. 1
dudacek Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, nfreeman said: I think this is unfortunately pretty likely. Let’s look at the turnover that preceded the other openings this year: Flyers: Gordon .5, Hakstol 2.5, Berube 2 Panthers: Boughner 2, Rowe 1, Gallant 2 Oilers: McLellan 3, Nelson .5, Eakins 1.5 Senators: Boucher 2, Cameron 2, McLean 3 Ducks: Carlyle 3, Boudreau 5, Carlyle 5 Kings: Desjardins 1, Stevens 1, Sutter 5 Blues: Yeo 1.5, Hitchcock 5, Payne 1.5 Hawks: Quenneville 10, Savard 2, Yawney 1.5 And last years Flames: Gulutzan 2, Hartley 3, Sutter 3 Hurricanes: Peters 4, Muller 2, Maurice 3 Stars: Hitchcock 1, Ruff 4, Gulutzan 1.5 Canadiens: Therrien 3.5, Cunneyworth 1, Martin 2.5 Islanders: Weight 1.5, Capuano 6, Gordon 2 Rangers: Vigneault 5, Torts 4, Renney 4 Coaches get fired if they don’t win. The Sabres record with turnover is nothing to be proud of, but it’s not unusual and I doubt it will deter many coaches -particularly non-established coaches - from pursuing the job. Smith was not available to talk to prior to yesterday and Keefe won’t be until the Marlies are knocked out. Edited April 24, 2019 by dudacek 3
Zamboni Posted April 24, 2019 Author Report Posted April 24, 2019 1 minute ago, dudacek said: Let’s look at the other openings: Flyers: Gordon .5, Hakstol 2.5, Berube 2 Panthers: Boughner 2, Rowe 1, Gallant 2 Oilers: McLellan 3, Nelson .5, Eakins 1.5 Senators: Boucher 2, Cameron 2, McLean 3 Ducks: Carlyle 3, Boudreau 5, Carlyle 5 Kings: Desjardins 1, Stevens 1, Sutter 5 Blues: Berube .5, Yeo 1.5, Hitchcock 5 Hawks: Colliton 1, Quenneville 10, Savard 2 And last years Flames: Gulutzan 2, Hartley 3, Sutter 3 Hurricanes: Peters 4, Muller 2, Maurice 3 Stars: Hitchcock 1, Ruff 4, Gulutzan 1.5 Canadiens: Therrien 3.5, Cunneyworth 1, Martin 2.5 Islanders: Weight 1.5, Capuano 6, Gordon 2 Rangers: Vigneault 5, Torts 4, Renney 4 Coaches get fired if they don’t win. The Sabres record with turnover is nothing to be proud of, but it’s not unusual and I doubt it will deter many coaches -particularly non-established coaches - from pursuing the job. Smith was not available to talk to prior to yesterday and Keefe won’t be until the Marlies are knocked out. Thanks for doing that work. Very interesting ...
IKnowPhysics Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 13 minutes ago, ... said: The fans, in general, recognize: Murray was an attempt to be contenders within a short amount of time. Tim Murray was hired (Jan 2014) based on his scouting and talent evaluation prowess, seen as a necessary rebuild skill for a Sabres team that was midway through its first tank season. I don't know if anyone thought this would be a fast rebuild, but we knew we had to hit on the draft picks. His tutelage under uncle Bryan Murray was seen as a strong asset. Nolan was re-hired because fans love him and we needed to tank. Nolan was hired by Pat LaFontaine in November 2013 to replace Ron Rolston (HC since April and was terrible). I think LaFontaine thought Nolan deserved another chance and pushed for him. LaFontaine would leave for an undisclosed reason when Ryan Miller and Steve Ott were traded to STL (the moment intentional tank was irreversibly cemented into the roster). I don't think LaFontaine was ever in favor of the tank, therefore, I don't think Ted Nolan was intentionally hired to be in on the tank. Bylsma was a superficial hire based on availability, name recognition, with no real respect for the fact that he didn't earn his ring. Tim Murray was advised by Craig Patrick, who was GM of the Penguins from 1989 to 2006, saw the players he drafted win the Cup under Bylsma (hired to Pens in 2008). I think Bylsma was an easy buy based on his short but successful experience, but I also suspect Patrick strongly supported this hire and Tim Murray, being a "numbers guy," couldn't turn down Bylsma's record. I still wonder if Bylsma was ever given a proper roster, given that he had us at ~.500 and Housley would go on to tank us, but the bar was set at "playoffs" at the time. I think the Pegulas saw flaws in both Murray and Bylsma leading to no playoffs and culture issues, prompting both to be fired. Botterill was, perhaps, the first thoughtful hire by the Pegulas. Botterill is the first GM hired directly by the Pegulas with no other senior adviser (like LaFontaine). Housely was a disaster that no one expected. Agreed. Housley was praised for some elements of a successful Nashville team, but these didn't translate to success in Buffalo. He took a middling team under Bylsma and made it worse. If I may, I'd like to tailor this a little, bolded. 2
Stoner Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) Is this anything?: Botterill has admitted he didn't do a good enough job with the roster. He's coming into a critical year 3 under an owner who is seen as someone who likes to fire people. Suddenly having enough to win with and make the playoffs with is hardly a given, and if the team underperforms again, Botterill is probably gone. As much as coaching for one year and then collecting on two or three or four years of the rest of the contract sounds fantastic, who wants to move his life with the very real chance it'll be one season and done? Especially unattractive for a first-time head coach. And it can't sound that great for someone who already has rep and cred. I wonder how much all of that could be hurting the search. Edited April 24, 2019 by PASabreFan
In The Buff Posted April 24, 2019 Report Posted April 24, 2019 3 hours ago, ... said: STL 1986–87 80 32 33 15 – 79 1st in Norris 2 4 .333 Lost in First round STL 1987–88 80 34 38 8 – 76 2nd in Norris 5 5 .500 Lost in Second round OTT 1995–96 38 10 24 4 – (41) 6th in Northeast 0 0 – Missed Playoffs OTT 1996–97 82 31 36 15 – 77 3rd in Northeast 3 4 .429 Lost in First round OTT 1997–98 82 34 33 15 - 83 5th in Northeast 5 6 .455 Lost in Second round OTT 1998–99 82 44 23 15 - 103 1st in Northeast 0 4 .000 Lost in First round OTT 1999–2000 82 41 28 11 2 95 2nd in Northeast 2 4 .333 Lost in First round OTT 2000–01 82 48 21 9 4 109 1st in Northeast 0 4 .000 Lost in First round OTT 2001–02 80 38 26 9 7 94 3rd in Northeast 7 5 .583 Lost in Second round OTT 2002–03 82 52 21 8 1 113 1st in Northeast 11 7 .611 Lost in Conf. Finals OTT 2003–04 82 43 23 10 6 102 3rd in Northeast 3 4 .429 Lost in First round FLA 2005–06 82 37 34 – 11 85 4th in Southeast 0 0 – Missed Playoffs FLA 2006–07 82 35 31 – 16 86 4th in Southeast 0 0 – Missed Playoffs FLA 2007–08 82 38 35 – 9 85 3rd in Southeast 0 0 – Missed Playoffs MTL 2009–10 82 39 33 – 10 88 4th in Northeast 9 10 .474 Lost in Conf. Finals MTL 2010–11 82 44 30 – 8 96 2nd in Northeast 3 4 .429 Lost in First round MTL 2011–12 32 13 12 – 7 (78) 5th in Northeast - - - (fired) I don't see any Stanley Cups there. Lots of first round exits. Probably very similar to Lindy's record. Unless he's an actual proponent of using advanced stats as a tool, and actually uses them, I'd prefer to take a chance on a "modern" style coach. A lot of those early playoff exits were at the hands of our Sabres & the Leafs. Hasek & Joseph were probably a big part in their defeats. But yeah I agree i'd rather have someone else. Although from what I've read, Martin does a good job with coaching up younger players & of course he is experienced. I'd just prefer someone with more upside. If JBotts hires Martin its almost as if Pittsburghs coaches are to the Sabres as the Carolina Panthers players are to the Buffalo Bills. On one hand it makes sense since theres that familiarity but also seems very safe & uninspiring.
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