2019 Stanley Cup Playoffs First Round

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, LTS said:

Would you tell the Saints to suck it up because the refs screwed up pass interference?

The Vegas penalty and the Saints call are simply not comparable injustices.  Just stop with that stuff.

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

The Vegas penalty and the Saints call are simply not comparable injustices.  Just stop with that stuff.

Why not? Honestly asking, although I agree they are different. 

[Swedesessed]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Why not? Honestly asking, although I agree they are different. 

 

If Vegas had a 1 goal lead or was tied I would say its comparable, at the time of the bad call Vegas had a 3 goal lead, even with a 5 min major, to give up 4 goals is horrendous. Also the Vegas coach, when it was 3-2 boom timeout should have been taken he waited until 3-3 when it was too late.

[Doohicksie]

16 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Why not? Honestly asking, although I agree they are different. 

In addition to what Swede said, there is also the fact that the Saints call was a total miss of a call that should have been made, versus the Vegas call was incorrect in the matter of degree (a penalty should have been called and they called it, but it should have only been a minor penalty).  Also, there was no reasonable excuse for the Saints call; it was at the primary focus point of the play with no players between the official and the infraction.  In last night's game, the ref *thought* he saw a cross-check to the face (that's what they told Gallant).  You can see in the replay that wasn't the case, but in real time that's what they thought happened.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Doohickie

[Taro T]

10 minutes ago, Swedesessed said:

 

If Vegas had a 1 goal lead or was tied I would say its comparable, at the time of the bad call Vegas had a 3 goal lead, even with a 5 min major, to give up 4 goals is horrendous. Also the Vegas coach, when it was 3-2 boom timeout should have been taken he waited until 3-3 when it was too late.

He didn't take the timeout at 3-3.  That delay was to clean debris from the ice.  He took it around the late PP.

[Doohicksie]

A blown call was a setback, but doesn't excuse the utter, record-breaking* collapse of the Knights. 

 

*No other team has given up 4 goals during a 5 minute penalty in the playoffs.  It's only happened twice (if I remember correctly what the broadcasters said last night) in regular season play.

Just now, Taro T said:

He didn't take the timeout at 3-3.  That delay was to clean debris from the ice.  He took it around the late PP.

The point is, he should have taken it at 3-2.

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

In addition to what Swede said, there is also the fact that the Saints call was a total miss of a call that should have been made, versus the Vegas call was incorrect in the matter of degree (a penalty should have been called and they called it, but it should have only been a minor penalty). 

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

 

Also, there was no reasonable excuse for the Saints call; it was at the primary focus point of the play with no players between the official and the infraction.  In last night's game, the ref *thought* he say a cross-check to the face (that's what they told Gallant).  You can see in the replay that wasn't the case, but in real time that's what they thought happened.

In the playoffs, in the 3rd period of game 7, that cross check is never called.  Ever.  Should it be?  Yes, but that's a totally different discussion.

The ONLY reason it was called at all was Pavelski got injured, so the officials tried to recollect in their discussion what they THOUGHT they saw, or more accurately, what they believed they should have seen.  Clearly none of the 4 saw the play cleanly as there was no way the cross check was given with intent to injure.  Yet, they chose to give a 5.

It was absolutely a horrible call, but Gallant has to recover and steady the ship at 3-2.  He didn't.

And that call rivaled the one against the Saints in egregiousness.  But Fleury has to make the 1st save.  He can't give San Jose that extra adrenaline boost.  And, as stated before, Gallant needs to be better there as well.  His team needed a chance to reflect & breathe to do their jobs & he didn't give them that.

 

[Mustache of God]

Really hope Carolina pulls out the upset tonight.

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

A blown call was a setback, but doesn't excuse the utter, record-breaking* collapse of the Knights. 

 

*No other team has given up 4 goals during a 5 minute penalty in the playoffs.  It's only happened twice (if I remember correctly what the broadcasters said last night) in regular season play.

The point is, he should have taken it at 3-2.

No, the point here was a poster stated something that wasn't accurate.  Most likely because the broadcasters made the same erroneous statement initially.  My post simply clarified what actually happened for those that didn't stay up late enough to watch it themselves.  There was no further opining.

[WildCard]

4 minutes ago, Mustache of God said:

Really hope Carolina pulls out the upset tonight.

Boo this man

[Mustache of God]

2 minutes ago, WildCard said:

Boo this man

This round has been wild enough already, a Carolina upset in Washington would be the icing on the cookie. 

[Eleven]

46 minutes ago, Mustache of God said:

Really hope Carolina pulls out the upset tonight.

***** Carolina.

[SDS]

Where can I get access to the crystal ball that shows that if a timeout was taken all would have magically been well for Vegas?

Or is there data that says PK effectiveness increases X amount immediately following a timeout?

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

20 minutes ago, SDS said:

Where can I get access to the crystal ball that shows that if a timeout was taken all would have magically been well for Vegas?

Or is there data that says PK effectiveness increases X amount immediately following a timeout?

Uh oh....this is the wrong place to ask for data. How long have you been a Mod on here? LOL

You are probably gonna get some FU% chart or a BS% Fenwick result that you didn't want to really see.

Or my post...LOL

Good luck either way.

[Eleven]

23 minutes ago, SDS said:

Where can I get access to the crystal ball that shows that if a timeout was taken all would have magically been well for Vegas?

Or is there data that says PK effectiveness increases X amount immediately following a timeout?

Do you still coach soccer?  If there were a sudden and overwhelming momentum shift and you had the ability to take a timeout (I know there are no timeouts in soccer), wouldn't you?  You see it in college basketball all the time in that situation.

[SDS]

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

Do you still coach soccer?  If there were a sudden and overwhelming momentum shift and you had the ability to take a timeout (I know there are no timeouts in soccer), wouldn't you?  You see it in college basketball all the time in that situation.

The assumption is if he did take the time out all would have been well. No one knows that, but fans always take the unknown, wrap it up in a cylindrical package and jam it up the backside of their target as if it were a proven alternative. It is not. Obviously if something fails, everyone says something else should have been done. No one knows if the alternative would have worked. It’s all a fallacy.

It’s like icing the kicker. You are choosing one unknown scenario for another. 

Best case scenario is that you can collect some data that says a TO increases PK percentage some fraction of the overall success percentage. The rest lies in an alternative universe somewhere. 

8 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Uh oh....this is the wrong place to ask for data. How long have you been a Mod on here? LOL

You are probably gonna get some FU% chart or a BS% Fenwick result that you didn't want to really see.

Or my post...LOL

Good luck either way.

I’m a recent hire. 

[Eleven]

5 minutes ago, SDS said:

The assumption is if he did take the time out all would have been well. No one knows that, but fans always take the unknown, wrap it up in a cylindrical package and jam it up the backside of their target as if it were a proven alternative. It is not. Obviously if something fails, everyone says something else should have been done. No one knows if the alternative would have worked. It’s all a fallacy.

It’s like icing the kicker. You are choosing one unknown scenario for another. 

Best case scenario is that you can collect some data that says a TO increases PK percentage some fraction of the overall success percentage. The rest lies in an alternative universe somewhere. 

I’m a recent hire. 

It's not proven, true, but if it were the Sabres in that situation, I'd be screaming for a timeout.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

In addition to what Swede said, there is also the fact that the Saints call was a total miss of a call that should have been made, versus the Vegas call was incorrect in the matter of degree (a penalty should have been called and they called it, but it should have only been a minor penalty).  Also, there was no reasonable excuse for the Saints call; it was at the primary focus point of the play with no players between the official and the infraction.  In last night's game, the ref *thought* he saw a cross-check to the face (that's what they told Gallant).  You can see in the replay that wasn't the case, but in real time that's what they thought happened.

This doesn't wash, though, with regard to the ref on that side of the ice who had a clear view of the draw. If he thought he saw a cross check to the chops - why did his hand not go up?

[Doohicksie]

5 minutes ago, SDS said:

The assumption is if he did take the time out all would have been well.

The assumption was that that any competent coach and team should have been able to stop the bleeding, since no other team in playoff history allowed 4 goals in the same 5 minute major.

No, there's no guarantee a timeout would have fixed anything, but it was the most obvious move for a coach to try to stop the moment of the other team and perhaps quiet the crowd a bit.

[LGR4GM]

We know what did not work though. Not taking the timeout did not work. 

[Doohicksie]

2 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

This doesn't wash, though, with regard to the ref on that side of the ice who had a clear view of the draw. If he thought he saw a cross check to the chops - why did his hand not go up?

I don't know.  I was just repeating what I read in the aftermath.  That's what Gallant said he was told.  It's possible that in the heat of the moment there wasn't a clear view and the ref judged the crosscheck from the aftermath, and made an honest mistake.  But I'm not saying it's a good call.  But neither should it have been a death sentence for the Knights' season.

[That Aud Smell]

22 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I don't know.  I was just repeating what I read in the aftermath.  That's what Gallant said he was told.  It's possible that in the heat of the moment there wasn't a clear view and the ref judged the crosscheck from the aftermath, and made an honest mistake.  But I'm not saying it's a good call.  But neither should it have been a death sentence for the Knights' season.

Right, right.

I just think the explanation that the refs offered made a bad call somehow worse.

[Wyldnwoody44]

2 hours ago, Mustache of God said:

Really hope Carolina pulls out the upset tonight.

JJ, is that you? 

[Assquatch]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

I’m a recent hire. 

Hovering over your username has revealed this to be false, oh leader of our short bus.

[LTS]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

The Vegas penalty and the Saints call are simply not comparable injustices.  Just stop with that stuff.

How are they not comparable?  Both are related 100% to actions of officials blowing a call that lead to an extremely favorable outcome for the opposing team.

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

In addition to what Swede said, there is also the fact that the Saints call was a total miss of a call that should have been made, versus the Vegas call was incorrect in the matter of degree (a penalty should have been called and they called it, but it should have only been a minor penalty).  Also, there was no reasonable excuse for the Saints call; it was at the primary focus point of the play with no players between the official and the infraction.  In last night's game, the ref *thought* he saw a cross-check to the face (that's what they told Gallant).  You can see in the replay that wasn't the case, but in real time that's what they thought happened.

And if the call were a minor penalty there would have been 1 PP goal scored and that would be that.

There's no reasonable excuse for the refs call last night except that someone was thinking "Jesus christ, the captain is bleeding from the head on the ice and we missed something so we better call something."  They didn't think there was a cross-check at all (let alone one to the face) as was indicated by no referee signalling a penalty. It stinks to high hell of 100% immediate revisionist history once the OUTCOME of the play was realized. 

Regardless of all of that. It's a blown call by an official that leads to an extremely favorable outcome for the opposing team. They are comparable.

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

Do you still coach soccer?  If there were a sudden and overwhelming momentum shift and you had the ability to take a timeout (I know there are no timeouts in soccer), wouldn't you?  You see it in college basketball all the time in that situation.

I've coached hockey.  I've called timeout before and watched as nothing changed whatsoever.

Keep in mind, you call the timeout and you've given the other team carte blanche to squeeze that blue line or interfere with the goaltender. One missed call by an official and a goal is scored and there's no chance for Vegas to review it.  It's not like there wasn't some precedent for these officials to screw up a call, right?  ?