O’Reilly for Montour

[dudacek]

So pending the final Blues game and Sobotka being discarded this off-season, it seems fairly likely the trade will settle into

O’Reilly and Guhle for

Montour, Thompson and a second.

 

Discuss.

Edited April 6, 2019 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

Still a bad a trade. But I like it more than the original 1.

Edited April 6, 2019 by LGR4GM

[Derrico]

I don't love the trade based on how obvious our second line centre weakness was this year.  Saying that, damn I like the looks of Montour.  A pairing of he and Dahlin for the next decade sounds pretty nice.

[dejeanerret]

I think you have to see how Thompson pans out, and how the Sabres use that 2nd round pick

Bots has been drafting some good players in the first four rounds over the last few years.  They may be able to add to that stable.

I really like some of the skills Thompson carries and he is still very young.  If he can turn into a 20g scorer on a 2nd or 3rd line and Montour becomes one of our core Dmen then I think the Sabres got the better of this deal.

Right now, similar to that WGR call, it seems the Sabres have traded all of their good players away in hopes of rebuilding through the draft. Those players in my view were seen as anti-culture, yet they've gone on to other teams and have shined.   I saw the WAR stats that showed Kane & ROR on this team makes us a playoff team, and it fit under the cap.  That's tough to swallow for a fan base that hasn't seen a playoff game in close to a decade.  

If I could step back to July 1st I'd say I'd wish the Sabres kept ROR.  Granted, I was one of the fans who thought he had to go.  But after this season it seems he wasn't the problem.  I really believe the coaching style of PH and the culture he has created has adversely affected this team.  Had a different coach been in place, ROR wouldn't have been in that state of mind.  I don't think PH is demanding enough. Players simply don't listen to him.

I know this because ROR and Kane gets traded and they both are having career years with skilled players, similar to the players we now have on our team.

To this poll's point, it's a wait and see.  Honestly, we have no choice.

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, dejeanerret said:

I think you have to see how Thompson pans out, and how the Sabres use that 2nd round pick

Bots has been drafting some good players in the first four rounds over the last few years.  They may be able to add to that stable.

I really like some of the skills Thompson carries and he is still very young.  If he can turn into a 20g scorer on a 2nd or 3rd line and Montour becomes one of our core Dmen then I think the Sabres got the better of this deal.

Right now, similar to that WGR call, it seems the Sabres have traded all of their good players away in hopes of rebuilding through the draft. Those players in my view were seen as anti-culture, yet they've gone on to other teams and have shined.   I saw the WAR stats that showed Kane & ROR on this team makes us a playoff team, and it fit under the cap.  That's tough to swallow for a fan base that hasn't seen a playoff game in close to a decade.  

If I could step back to July 1st I'd say I'd wish the Sabres kept ROR.  Granted, I was one of the fans who thought he had to go.  But after this season it seems he wasn't the problem.  I really believe the coaching style of PH and the culture he has created has adversely affected this team.  Had a different coach been in place, ROR wouldn't have been in that state of mind.  I don't think PH is demanding enough. Players simply don't listen to him.

I know this because ROR and Kane gets traded and they both are having career years with skilled players, similar to the players we now have on our team.

To this poll's point, it's a wait and see.  Honestly, we have no choice.

Kane is not really having a career year, he is just about exactly where he was his other 3-4 best seasons.  O’Reilly is having a career year but is playing with a lot better players than he ever did in Buffalo.

[SDS]

Honestly, I hope to never hear the name Ryan O’Reilly or any other reference to him for the rest of my life.

[TrueBlueGED]

53 minutes ago, dudacek said:

So pending the final Blues game and Sobotka being discarded this off-season, it seems fairly likely the trade will settle into

 

O’Reilly and Guhle for

Montour, Thompson and a second.

 

Discuss.

Tossing Montour in is obviously a better deal. Of course, we could have kept O'Reilly and still had the assets to get Montour, so... 

17 minutes ago, SDS said:

Honestly, I hope to never hear the name Ryan O’Reilly or any other reference to him for the rest of my life.

Yea well, you can thank Botterill for that. If the return wasn't apocalyptically bad, nobody (okay, some would) still be pissy about it. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Sadly, it's hard to evaluate the trade without knowing the full circumstances behind it. 

How does it change the perception of the trade if Jbot was told to move him and before the roster bonus was payable?

We traded 4 pieces to Colorado (Grigorenko, Zadorov, Compher and the 31st (then a 2nd rd pick - Jeremy Roy) ) for ROR and McGinn.  Essentially 2 1sts and a 2nd for ROR and a 2nd for McGinn.  We recovered a 3rd rd pick when we traded McGinn after 3/4 of a season.  

After 3 seasons of mostly solid play, we traded him for 2 players, Thompson (a former 1st) and a 1st rd pick.  Frankly we gave up more then we got but no tsignificantly since Grigorenko is out of the NHL.  I allocate the Jeremy Roy pick to McGinn.

So the pick we received from Stl plus Guhle for Montour; therefore we traded Grigorenko, Zadorov, Compher, Jeremy Roy and Guhle for 3 years of ROR, 1 year of McGinn, a 3rd rd pick, Sobotka, Berglund's cap space, Thompson and Montour.  Meh!  

Seems like much ado about nothing.  

While I do think ROR with the proper attitude helps this team compete for a playoff spot, the terrible D and goaltending would have doomed us in the end.  We probably get to 85 points.  Big Woop.  I've said many times, that Jbot needed to step up and support this team following Beglund's departure and didn't, but he probably realized that the D was a group destined to fail.  I think if things went soar as they did, ROR would have sulked again like last season and wouldn't have helped us much in the end.

We'd probably have had threads talking about ROR the sulking jerk vs the threads we did have about stupid and short sighted Jbot was for trading the great ROR.  How quickly people forget ROR's terrible attitude at the close of last season.

Edited April 6, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[jad1]

1 hour ago, SDS said:

Honestly, I hope to never hear the name Ryan O’Reilly or any other reference to him for the rest of my life.

After last season I was hoping I would never have to hear the words "draft lottery" again for the rest of my life.  And yet, here we are.

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, TrueBlueGED said:

 

Yea well, you can thank Botterill for that. If the return wasn't apocalyptically bad, nobody (okay, some would) still be pissy about it. 

As @GASabresIUFAN pointed out there appears much more than meets the eye on the ROR Trade. I believe he was operating under direction from the Pegulas to have him off the roster prior to the bonus being paid. This placed a double restriction as there was a not only a deadline placed but restrictions on what budget teams would be interested in a deal as well. For example Carolina was rumored to have been interested and part of the Sabres Return would have been Elias Lindholm.  Plus the fact that Berglund has no idea he was being moved and was shocked by Trade is possibly more evidence the deal was pieced quite hastily.  Add this to the fact that Jeremy Rutherford, who broke the return, reported the Blues were out on ROR after they signed Bozak. 

Do not get me wrong this has been a disaster of epic proportions  thus far from the Sabres Standpoint.  However if you look at Botterill Other Deals, this one was completely out of proportion compared to the others. 

[gregkash]

I believe that O'Reilly wanted out. He only said he wanted to stay in Buffalo after a full off-season of Shawn Michaels "Losing his Smile" talk and the uproar that followed. I truly believe he wanted out. He wanted out of the Avalanche when they drafted a young stud and made him captain. Essentially the same thing happened here. It was clear that Eichel was going to be the Captain and surpass O'Reilly. And hey, maybe I'm 100% wrong. We will likely never know and if we do it'll be in several years, but I think he wanted out.

 

 

[klos1963]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Sadly, it's hard to evaluate the trade without knowing the full circumstances behind it. 

How does it change the perception of the trade if Jbot was told to move him and before the roster bonus was payable?

We traded 4 pieces to Colorado (Grigorenko, Zadorov, Compher and the 31st (then a 2nd rd pick - Jeremy Roy) ) for ROR and McGinn.  Essentially 2 1sts and a 2nd for ROR and a 2nd for McGinn.  We recovered a 3rd rd pick when we traded McGinn after 3/4 of a season.  

After 3 seasons of mostly solid play, we traded him for 2 players, Thompson (a former 1st) and a 1st rd pick.  Frankly we gave up more then we got but no tsignificantly since Grigorenko is out of the NHL.  I allocate the Jeremy Roy pick to McGinn.

So the pick we received from Stl plus Guhle for Montour; therefore we traded Grigorenko, Zadorov, Compher, Jeremy Roy and Guhle for 3 years of ROR, 1 year of McGinn, a 3rd rd pick, Sobotka, Berglund's cap space, Thompson and Montour.  Meh!  

Seems like much ado about nothing.  

While I do think ROR with the proper attitude helps this team compete for a playoff spot, the terrible D and goaltending would have doomed us in the end.  We probably get to 85 points.  Big Woop.  I've said many times, that Jbot needed to step up and support this team following Beglund's departure and didn't, but he probably realized that the D was a group destined to fail.  I think if things went soar as they did, ROR would have sulked again like last season and wouldn't have helped us much in the end.

We'd probably have had threads talking about ROR the sulking jerk vs the threads we did have about stupid and short sighted Jbot was for trading the great ROR.  How quickly people forget ROR's terrible attitude at the close of last season.

Did anyone really notice a 'terrible attitude' on the ice?

Zadorov is part of a playoff team, Compher is becoming a very solid player on a playoff team.  Probably shouldn't dismiss those 2 players.

11 minutes ago, gregkash said:

I believe that O'Reilly wanted out. He only said he wanted to stay in Buffalo after a full off-season of Shawn Michaels "Losing his Smile" talk and the uproar that followed. I truly believe he wanted out. He wanted out of the Avalanche when they drafted a young stud and made him captain. Essentially the same thing happened here. It was clear that Eichel was going to be the Captain and surpass O'Reilly. And hey, maybe I'm 100% wrong. We will likely never know and if we do it'll be in several years, but I think he wanted out.

 

 

I'd be willing to be that not one player on our roster wouldn't welcome a trade from Buffalo to a better situation... which is most every other team in the league, save for a couple.

[TrueBlueGED]

45 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

As @GASabresIUFAN pointed out there appears much more than meets the eye on the ROR Trade. I believe he was operating under direction from the Pegulas to have him off the roster prior to the bonus being paid. This placed a double restriction as there was a not only a deadline placed but restrictions on what budget teams would be interested in a deal as well. For example Carolina was rumored to have been interested and part of the Sabres Return would have been Elias Lindholm.  Plus the fact that Berglund has no idea he was being moved and was shocked by Trade is possibly more evidence the deal was pieced quite hastily.  Add this to the fact that Jeremy Rutherford, who broke the return, reported the Blues were out on ROR after they signed Bozak. 

Do not get me wrong this has been a disaster of epic proportions  thus far from the Sabres Standpoint.  However if you look at Botterill Other Deals, this one was completely out of proportion compared to the others. 

Let's assume that Pegula told Botterill to trade him before the bonus. Given that, the way I see it playing out is Botterill wanted to trade him, and Pegula said that's fine, but I'm not paying him $7 million to play for another team. The fundamental blame still lies with Botterill for feeling like he simply had to trade him. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

Did anyone really notice a 'terrible attitude' on the ice?

Zadorov is part of a playoff team, Compher is becoming a very solid player on a playoff team.  Probably shouldn't dismiss those 2 players.

I'd be willing to be that not one player on our roster wouldn't welcome a trade from Buffalo to a better situation... which is most every other team in the league, save for a couple.

I'm not dismissing either player but....

Montour > Zadorov

Thompson < Compher, but Thompson is 3 draft classes younger then Compher

[nfreeman]

Too early to tell IMHO.  We don't know how good (or bad) TT or Guhle will become or for that matter how Montour will handle the opportunity to be a top-pairing guy (or whether ROR will get angsty again and want out of STL in a couple of seasons).  Right now the Sabres are clearly on the short end, but there are plenty of scenarios under which the trade is a wash or a net gain for them.

[jad1]

Montour has shown skill and talent, but the defense and team really hasn't improved since he arrived, putting up 8 points the last month or so.

O'Reilly is a 75 point Selke candidate, the leading scorer on a playoff team.  Imagine if Botterill signs a 75 point 2C this off season.  How ecstatic would Sabres fans be?

Hopefully Montour and the defense will improve under better coaching, but Montour for O'Reilly is still a  big win for the Blues.

[OhMyDahlin]

None of these players will ever be as good as Ryan O'Reilly.

The Blues got the best player in the trade...a player the Sabres now have to look for again, after it took us since Drury/Briere to find one.

EDIT:Now that I think about it, we have no idea if this is how the trade will play out. That pick has not yet been conveyed to Anaheim, and it can't be until after the playoffs. It's based on the final order of the 1st round. If St. Louis goes further than San Jose, then Anaheim gets the San Jose pick.

Edited April 6, 2019 by OhMyDahlin

[Brawndo]

2 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Let's assume that Pegula told Botterill to trade him before the bonus. Given that, the way I see it playing out is Botterill wanted to trade him, and Pegula said that's fine, but I'm not paying him $7 million to play for another team. The fundamental blame still lies with Botterill for feeling like he simply had to trade him. 

I still believe it came from the Top in both the ROR and Kane Deals. Within a week of signing his contract extension ROR drove into the Tim Hortons, which dominated the Hockey News Cycle for about a week. Then the infamous I lost my love for the game at times comment was made, which also probably came with a trade request during exit meetings. 

It also would not surprise me if the reason why Botterill said he was going to use his first year as an evaluation of the team is because after the Pegulas went through their own evaluation with GMTM and DD, they felt ROR was a large part of locker room issues and wanted him moved. Botterill and Housley figured let’s see what we can do with the room,  only to discover that situation was much worse than they could imagine. ROR finally went on the block at the trade deadline. 

Kane appeared to be s mutual decision between both parties. He didn’t want to re sign and the Pegulas were not offering an extension. 

[TrueBlueGED]

48 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

I still believe it came from the Top in both the ROR and Kane Deals. Within a week of signing his contract extension ROR drove into the Tim Hortons, which dominated the Hockey News Cycle for about a week. Then the infamous I lost my love for the game at times comment was made, which also probably came with a trade request during exit meetings. 

It also would not surprise me if the reason why Botterill said he was going to use his first year as an evaluation of the team is because after the Pegulas went through their own evaluation with GMTM and DD, they felt ROR was a large part of locker room issues and wanted him moved. Botterill and Housley figured let’s see what we can do with the room,  only to discover that situation was much worse than they could imagine. ROR finally went on the block at the trade deadline. 

Kane appeared to be s mutual decision between both parties. He didn’t want to re sign and the Pegulas were not offering an extension. 

Awful lot of conjecture, and given Botterill's public statements about the room and whatnot, I'd be surprised if it simply came from the top. But we'll never know. All we know is Botterill got worked on the trade. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

This could be moot if Stl wins the central after winning today in a SO to take the lead in the division.

 

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Awful lot of conjecture, and given Botterill's public statements about the room and whatnot, I'd be surprised if it simply came from the top. But we'll never know. All we know is Botterill got worked on the trade. 

Some conjecture, some information from LeBrun and Fellow Insiders. Botterill will tote the company line and deflect blame from the Pegulas. From everything I have read, heard and seen from Botterill leads me to believe he is calculated with every move he makes, and the ROR Trade was completely out of character for him, which is why I believe there was pressure or orders from the Top. 

Agreed with the bold 

[Andrew Amerk]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Some conjecture, some information from LeBrun and Fellow Insiders. Botterill will tote the company line and deflect blame from the Pegulas. From everything I have read, heard and seen from Botterill leads me to believe he is calculated with every move he makes, and the ROR Trade was completely out of character for him, which is why I believe there was pressure or orders from the Top. 

Agreed with the bold 

This is what I agree with. From the available information, it seems JBott had limited time and trade partner options, and got the best deal that he could at that moment. 

There was no way he could foresee what would happen with Berglund, but at least he gave us cap space walking away. We still don’t know what Tage will be end up becoming. I believe the trade for Montour saved face. 

ROR didn’t appear to want to be here, similar to his situation with the Avs. The Avs, like us, had a lot of young players on the roster, that didn’t need to be permeated with his sour attitude. I’m glad for him that he sour-pussed his way into a situation that is ideal for him. It appears JBott did the best that he could to get the best return that he could, given the restrictions. If ROR was a locker room problem, better to have him away from players like Mitts and Dahlin. 

[7+6=13]

Is there someone else I'd rather pay 7.5 million to other than O'Reilly and give Guhle for Montour, Thompson and a 2nd?  Yes

 

[PerreaultForever]

I think there is one aspect missing in the breakdown. They saved a boatload of money so I expect FA signings and you have to add them into the mix in a cap world. If we do not sign anybody significant I guess that's it and St. Louis comes out on top unless Tage gets a LOT better but if we add a couple bigger names and they make a difference you have to consider that as well.

I really believe there was no choice for JBot though. I wouldn't doubt if ROR said make me captain or I want out and that was that. I still say ROR is all about ROR and St. Louis as a team hasn't panned out all that great, they just righted the ship because of star rookie goaltending. If they hadn't got that, we'd be talking about how ROR ruined another team despite being a talented player.

[jsb]

The only hope for this trade is if in the long run ROR has a major drop off at the end of his contract and TT becomes a good middle 6 winger. What kills this trade for me and I understand the Pegula possible influence but the giving up the higher draft pick of the final 2 was another lousy negotiation on Botts' part. Top 19, really, he couldn't negotiate that trade any better than that??