EPIC Simon/White rant

[...]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Housley, Sobotka, Scandella, Risto (maybe?), Zemgus, Bogo (maybe?), Sheary were all contributors to the collapse. You could honestly add in Skinner who regressed so hard and fast to his mean sh% it left a gaping hole that no one was able to fill in. 

I think Risto and Bogo play a role but not directly.  I think Phil uses them wrong.  Both players are pretty bad at maintaining possession; both clear the puck willy-nilly.  I think one of them has to go in order to balance out the D.

You're not wrong with Skinner. His role here is to score goals, and ideally those come when we need them.  His record is like the 10-game streak.  However, those goals did contribute to a winning look for the first half of the season.  It's not unreasonable to assume that if the team were stabilized or played .500 hockey more consistently, Skinner would have more goals.

[LGR4GM]

Skinner at one point had a 19.2 sh% I believe. Several people cautioned that we shouldn't pay him based on that because he would regress. He currently is at 14.2% and his career avg is 10.7% so he is basically falling in line with who he is. 

[Sabre Dance]

19 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

There are people on this very board, blaming Eichel. 

You know what's ***** dumb? Blaming the guy leading the team in everything but goals. You know what wins games, talent. Scandella, Sobotka, Larsson, Zemgus, Wilson are all garbage and need to go. Why don't we blame Dahlin, why wasn't he better? 

 

Almost right - talent by itself does not win games. Applied talent wins games.  The NHL has seen many players with modest talent become stars.  It has also seen guys who drip talent from their pores fail to make it.  The key is to find players who can maximize the hockey skills they do have and get results.  No really good team is made up of all first round picks.  There are always the third-rounders (and a free agent or two) who just plain work hard and that is how they make their mark in the game.

 

[Weave]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Okay, and what criticism do you have for Eichel? How does that compare to criticism of other players? For example:

Eichel needs to shoot more and demand the puck more.

Sobotka needs to gtfo this team because he is terrible at hockey. 

By my eye, Eichel’s intensity has dropped way off.  He’s spending too much time floating instead of engaging when he doesn’t have the puck.  I don’t need to compare him to other players on the team in that regard, not when I am addressing him specifically anyway.

Its something he’s done in the past when the season hasn’t gone his way.  In my view, it’s a pattern now.

None of that means he’s the reason for the teams’ turn of direction.  Frankly, the team was well down this path before he gave up, so it’s not his fault IMO.  But as the captain, the defacto face of the team, and a now veteran who is expected to show the path, criticism for it is warranted.

No, he doesn’t need to be moved either.  

Its a valid criticism of his play.  He’s earned it.

[French Collection]

12 minutes ago, Weave said:

By my eye, Eichel’s intensity has dropped way off.  He’s spending too much time floating instead of engaging when he doesn’t have the puck.  I don’t need to compare him to other players on the team in that regard, not when I am addressing him specifically anyway.

Its something he’s done in the past when the season hasn’t gone his way.  In my view, it’s a pattern now.

None of that means he’s the reason for the teams’ turn of direction.  Frankly, the team was well down this path before he gave up, so it’s not his fault IMO.  But as the captain, the defacto face of the team, and a now veteran who is expected to show the path, criticism for it is warranted.

No, he doesn’t need to be moved either.  

Its a valid criticism of his play.  He’s earned it.

I agree with his drop off coinciding with getting knocked out of contention.

Jack has some warts but he will grow and benefit greatly from some help in the scoring department. Improving the PP is another necessity.

[LGR4GM]

17 minutes ago, Weave said:

By my eye, Eichel’s intensity has dropped way off.  He’s spending too much time floating instead of engaging when he doesn’t have the puck.  I don’t need to compare him to other players on the team in that regard, not when I am addressing him specifically anyway.

Its something he’s done in the past when the season hasn’t gone his way.  In my view, it’s a pattern now.

None of that means he’s the reason for the teams’ turn of direction.  Frankly, the team was well down this path before he gave up, so it’s not his fault IMO.  But as the captain, the defacto face of the team, and a now veteran who is expected to show the path, criticism for it is warranted.

No, he doesn’t need to be moved either.  

Its a valid criticism of his play.  He’s earned it.

Total valid criticism and is a pattern.

But when the Titanic is sinking you don't focus on the lack of cushions in the lifeboat. 

[Weave]

27 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Total valid criticism and is a pattern.

But when the Titanic is sinking you don't focus on the lack of cushions in the lifeboat. 

He's the engine or the hull, take your pick.  he's not a lifeboat.  Either way, they both need to be fully functioning or the ship doesn't get out of its own way.

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Weave said:

He's the engine or the hull, take your pick.  he's not a lifeboat.  Either way, they both need to be fully functioning or the ship doesn't get out of its own way.

Okay he's the engine. When the Titanic is sinking you don't get mad at the Engine for taking you to the seen of the crash. 

Hell, I would be more critical of Botterill than Eichel. Botteril made a bad ROR trade then compounded his error by doing nothing when Berglund left and the team slipped below the waves. 

[Weave]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Okay he's the engine. When the Titanic is sinking you don't get mad at the Engine for taking you to the seen of the crash. 

Hell, I would be more critical of Botterill than Eichel. Botteril made a bad ROR trade then compounded his error by doing nothing when Berglund left and the team slipped below the waves. 

Valid.  But the point of view you are arguing with isn't counter to your second sentence.  I don't think anyone criticizing Jack is giving JBott, PH, Sobotka, the towel boy a free pass.  There is plenty of complicity to go around.

[...]

Eichel isn't "the engine".  That doesn't even fit the original axiom.  At best he's the Chief or second Engineer.

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

That's what I am driving at. This team was a festering dumpster fire for 4 months. I want to know why and Eichel isn't one of the reasons why. 

Housley, Sobotka, Scandella, Risto (maybe?), Zemgus, Bogo (maybe?), Sheary were all contributors to the collapse. You could honestly add in Skinner who regressed so hard and fast to his mean sh% it left a gaping hole that no one was able to fill in. 

It may have festered before, but the dumpster fire started in earnest 6 weeks ago, not 4 months.

Jack had a poor January - he started by completing a five-game pointless streak and finished with 4 points in 10 games. In this epic March collapse, he has 8 points in 14 games. 

He needs to be a point-a-game plus for this team to win, and is paid accordingly, so he was definitely one of the reasons why.

Edited April 2, 2019 by dudacek

[shrader]

9 minutes ago, ... said:

Eichel isn't "the engine".  That doesn't even fit the original axiom.  At best he's the Chief or second Engineer.

All I can think of now is Scotty and his "I'm giving it all she's got, captain".  So who is he talking to?

[LGR4GM]

43 minutes ago, Weave said:

Valid.  But the point of view you are arguing with isn't counter to your second sentence.  I don't think anyone criticizing Jack is giving JBott, PH, Sobotka, the towel boy a free pass.  There is plenty of complicity to go around.

Sure there is plenty of complicity but most of the complicity lies with the guys not doing their jobs or pulling their weight. Sobotka, Scandella, Housley. Eichel leads the team in just about everything. 

It's like being mad at the pool boy because your wife cheated on you with her spin instructor. 

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It may have festered before, but the dumpster fire started in earnest 6 weeks ago, not 4 months.

Jack had a poor January - he started by completing a five-game pointless streak and finished with 5 points in 10 games. In this epic March collapse, he has 8 points in 14 games. 

He needs to be a point-a-game plus for this team to win, and is paid accordingly, so he was definitely one of the reasons why.

And what did the rest of the team do? You know Crosby has scoreless streaks as well. The Penguins don't suddenly all implode because Crosby went cold for a 3 games. 

He is a point per game player. If they need significantly more than that from him, say 100 pts a year, they have a flawed as ***** roster and coach. Let me expand on this. Eichel can be a 100pt player. If he gets there obviously the team will be better but to bag on him for only getting 80 points when the next closest guy is 20 points less is just off IMPO. At some point it isn't on Eichel's shoulders to drag the dead carcass that was the secondary scoring around with him. The fact we have focused so much of this convo on Eichel's flaws is exactly the point they made yesterday on the radio. There are far bigger problems.

When your car's engine throws a rod through the side of the block you don't go talk to the mechanic about how the dome light doesn't work. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by LGR4GM

[dudacek]

Further to my above post, 2019 numbers:

Eichel 37 12/16/28

Reinhart 39 12/12/24

Skinner 40 11/10/21

 

In the first half, they produced like a genuine first line. In the second half, nowhere near.

There needs to be some accountability for this.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Further to my above post, 2019 numbers:

Eichel 37 12/16/28

Reinhart 39 12/12/24

Skinner 40 11/10/21

 

In the first half, they produced like a genuine first line. In the second half, nowhere near.

There needs to be some accountability for this.

It's almost like the league adjusted to what Housley was doing and Housley then did nothing. 

[...]

I would imagine he would be better than a point-per-game player if the rest of the team pulled its weight.  

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 

And what did the rest of the team do? You know Crosby has scoreless streaks as well. The Penguins don't suddenly all implode because Crosby went cold for a 3 games. 

He is a point per game player. If they need significantly more than that from him, say 100 pts a year, they have a flawed as ***** roster and coach. 

A 3 game cold steak hardly describes what we’ve been getting from Eichel.

I am not blaming him. I am saying he needs to be better.

[LGR4GM]

You know what my strategy would be for the Sabres? I would play by best defensive pairs against the Eichel line. Put my best defensive line against the Eichel line. I would tell them to keep it simple, pressure the forwards to pass to the d and then force those d to make a mistake. Once you have possession just maintain until that line goes off the ice, limit rushes. 

Bottle up the Eichel line and then don't worry because the entire rest of the team is only good for 1 goal a game. 

[...]

Just now, dudacek said:

I am not blaming him. I am saying he needs to be better.

Chicken or egg?

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

A 3 game cold steak hardly describes what we’ve been getting from Eichel.

I am not blaming him. I am saying he needs to be better.

But you are blaming him. That's what everyone is doing right now. They are nitpicking the leading scorer on Buffalo's game to death because "he didn't do enough" and "he needs to be better".  You know who really needs to be better? Everyone not named Jack Eichel. 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

It's almost like the league adjusted to what Housley was doing and Housley then did nothing. 

It’s Housley’s fault Jack stopped passing the puck quickly? That he has stopped using his teammates? That his dedication to back checking fell off?

[StuckinFL]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It's almost like the league adjusted to what Housley was doing and Housley then did nothing. 

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. Not that he was given a ton to work with in that middle 6. But he'll get the axe before JBots does unless JBots has been waiting to pull off some sort of trade miracle this off-season and fixes the leaks in our middle 6 without killing us in another position. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by StuckinFL

[...]

Just now, dudacek said:

It’s Housley’s fault Jack stopped passing the puck quickly? That he has stopped using his teammates? That his dedication to back checking fell off?

You know there is a bunch of guys out there playing against him, right? That they're told what to do by people whose sole job it is is to figure out how to stop him from doing what he does?  If the other guys Eichel relies upon for help aren't helping and the coaches aren't changing the strategy to adjust for the job the opponent's coaches are doing...uhm...I got nothing.

[...]

Personally, I don't begrudge people who might accuse Jack of seeming uninspired. However, I don't blame Jack for being uninspired.  His uninspired play is still excellent play and while it certainly can make the long list of things wrong with the team, it's pretty near the bottom and likely easily addressed by fixing things way above it on the list.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It’s Housley’s fault Jack stopped passing the puck quickly? That he has stopped using his teammates? That his dedication to back checking fell off?

Yes. Yes it f#####g is. Housley's entire GD job is to get his players to PLAY HOCKEY! He can't do that. He can't get consistency from anyone on this roster although you are arguing Eichel gettting 14points in 14 games is significantly worse than getting 8 points in 12 or whatever which is something. It is the coaches job to get things to work, to coach his players. Coach, to teach someone to improve at a sport or skill. Has Housley coached this team? Have we seen them improve at the sport? Have we seen a group of players come together and get better at what they do? No we have witnessed a complete and total disaster perpetrated by poor roster construction and a milquetoast coach who couldn't lead you to starbuck's for a cup of coffee. 

Maybe Eichel isn't scoring or dishing to his teammates as much because his goal scoring winger, Skinner, DROPPPED OFF THE FACE OF THE PLANET! The guy literally stopped scoring. Skinner has 1 goal in 22 games or something but let's focus on Eichel. Housley has no answers ever and his 1 job which is to get the guys to play hockey he has failed at. Skinner went cold, Eichel tried to carry the load, Sobotka, VLADAMIR SOBOTKA was getting 2nd line center minutes. That's on Housley for taking at months to realize Rodrigues is better and on Botterill for being a complete failure and fixing the Berglund situation. You want to know why I am so angry about all of this because quite LITERALLY EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING ELSE! Is a bigger problem then Jack Eichel's game. 

So no, I am not going to blame Jack Eichel for having a slight dip in points when the entire rest of the team dropped so hard and fast that hit the earths core and then fell out the other side of the planet like some sort of bad bugs bunny cartoon.