Hockey players from the 70's vs today

[SDS]

In response to the old-timers here continually harkening back to yesteryear, longing for the stars of their youth to reincarnate and step onto the ice again to show these bums how hockey is played - I asserted in last night's game thread that the modern hockey player today would crush those players. D1 college, World Junior teams, etc... would annihilate these guys. 

If you need any visual proof, please watch the first minute of this Sabres/Flyers game from 1975. Three minutes is you have the time. 

They were awesome back in the day, but compared to today's players - they are COMICALLY bad.

 

 

[LTS]

From a pure physically fit standpoint it's clear they were not as good.  Training camp was where players almost got into game shape.

There's no saying that they might not be able to be as good if they trained the same, but the bottom line is that humans are evolving and continuing to grow bigger and stronger.  As such, it's safe to say that today's players are better than those of 40 years ago.

Take that, then add the increased knowledge of how to play the game, the changes in how skills are developed, and you end up with a pretty convincing body of evidence.

[Eleven]

Lots of questions.  Here's one.  Are we playing with 1975 rules and 1975 equipment?  Because those guys would beat today's NCAA players within an inch of their lives, and would stifle speed by tying up the puck along the boards for whistle after whistle after whistle.

Or are we playing with 2019 equipment and 2019 rules?  Or some combination?  In which case I still think today's NCAA players would have trouble with the physical game, but their speed and skill would make up for it.  Keep in mind, though, that Gilbert Perreault with 2019 equipment is going to be faster than he was, and Ken Dryden with 2019 equipment is going to make saves he couldn't make then.

On the football side (also discussed in last night's GDT), some of the same issues.  I don't think today's NCAA players could take what NFL players were dishing out back then.

[North Buffalo]

But wow the game is slower...

[Sabres Fan in NS]

There is no comparison.  Literally.

The game(s) and players have evolved so much that a comparison can't really be made.

The players today are like Steve Austin, Astronaut and the world's first bionic man ... faster and stronger ... compared to the 1970's players.

Also, as @Eleven points out the equipment is very different too.

[dudacek]

The things that stand out most to me are the tiny standup goalies that flail their pads out as they whiff on a 40-foot slapshot from the boards off the rush, and the burly lumberjacks stumbling on their ***** as they helplessly try to skate backwards while a forward easily cruises past them at Sam Reinhart speeds.

Edited March 8, 2019 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

The biggest change is goaltending.  The size of goalies, their equipment and the butterfly technique and radically changed the game, now add the modern hockey stick.

That said, the construction of the 1975 roster wise is what we are looking for today. 

That team had a gifted speed oriented 1st line (French Connection), with a excellent scoring 2nd line (Gare)  and a 3rd line (Luce Ramsey)  that could score but also could shutdown most opponents.  They also had 11 forwards with 10+ goals and 2 D with 10+

In addition they also had a very talented and big D group by even today’s standards, yet all could play and add to the offense. Schoenfeld, Hajt, Korab and Guevremont all stood over 6-2 and would punish you on both ends of the ice.  

Give those players modern training, coaching and equipment and they would give these guys a run for their money.

[Drunkard]

19 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

There is no comparison.  Literally.

The game(s) and players have evolved so much that a comparison can't really be made.

The players today are like Steve Austin, Astronaut and the world's first bionic man ... faster and stronger ... compared to the 1970's players.

Also, as @Eleven points out the equipment is very different too.

Lee Majors would destroy them all in any era using any rules. His seed produced the savior of all mankind.

 

[Weave]

An NHL player from the 70s had a different skill set than one today.  As Eleven put so well, the rules and officiating were very different then.  I suspect that the college kids of today have never played against the near sociopaths that roamed the ice in the 70s.

 

The rules would determin the winner as much as anything else.

[LTS]

44 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Lots of questions.  Here's one.  Are we playing with 1975 rules and 1975 equipment?  Because those guys would beat today's NCAA players within an inch of their lives, and would stifle speed by tying up the puck along the boards for whistle after whistle after whistle.

Or are we playing with 2019 equipment and 2019 rules?  Or some combination?  In which case I still think today's NCAA players would have trouble with the physical game, but their speed and skill would make up for it.  Keep in mind, though, that Gilbert Perreault with 2019 equipment is going to be faster than he was, and Ken Dryden with 2019 equipment is going to make saves he couldn't make then.

On the football side (also discussed in last night's GDT), some of the same issues.  I don't think today's NCAA players could take what NFL players were dishing out back then.

Fair questions..

If the game were evolved to be physical, I think today's players would be more physical than those from he 70's.  I look at players like Tom Wilson and think, he's not going to have a hard time.  The 70's players might be "tough" but they were not necessarily strong.

Give an older player the current equipment and they will be faster, but they still will not be in the shape that today's athletes are in. They will not have trained to the point where the equipment will make that much difference.

The thing is, I think you can point out a player or two in any era that might stand up to today's game.  But address the sport overall and today's player will handle the older player quite easily.

Interesting quick search result about NFL lineman and hockey player size evolution..

https://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-offensive-lineman-are-big-2011-10

https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/02/19/nhl-player-size-from-1917-18-to-2014-15-a-brief-look/

 

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by LTS

[mphs mike]

The current player and equipment is one reason I love international hockey on the larger ice surface. Even the worlds are more fun to watch when played on the larger European ice surface.

 

[Sabre Dance]

So, exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?  Maybe this is an interesting topic to mull over, but we'll all never really know. It's a moo point.  You know, like a cow's opinion; it's moo.  ?

[SDS]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

Lots of questions.  Here's one.  Are we playing with 1975 rules and 1975 equipment?  Because those guys would beat today's NCAA players within an inch of their lives, and would stifle speed by tying up the puck along the boards for whistle after whistle after whistle.

Or are we playing with 2019 equipment and 2019 rules?  Or some combination?  In which case I still think today's NCAA players would have trouble with the physical game, but their speed and skill would make up for it.  Keep in mind, though, that Gilbert Perreault with 2019 equipment is going to be faster than he was, and Ken Dryden with 2019 equipment is going to make saves he couldn't make then.

On the football side (also discussed in last night's GDT), some of the same issues.  I don't think today's NCAA players could take what NFL players were dishing out back then.

My motivation was to push back on what I consider the extremely silly notion that any of those players from the 70s would be anything other than poorly trained pylons in today's game. People's romanticizing about that era clouds the fact that those players lacked the skill in EVERY aspect (speed, edge-work, backward skating, turns, lateral movement, puck handling, shot accuracy) along with the conditioning and tactical knowledge of the game. Skill wise, I would say kids in high-end programs surpass those players in skill by age 14. By the time they are 17-18, their bodies are big/fast enough that they would run circles around them. The toe drags these kids would pull would make for 30 minute laugh tracks every game.

Since my push back is about people's perception of what they think they remember in the past compared to what they see today - I'm not changing anyone's equipment. I have no idea what Danny Gare would do growing up in the modern system. I assume he would be Nathan Gerbe (assuming he is indeed 5'8" as someone posted earlier) at best. But that's not what I'm getting at. Take the modern game, with 45 years of training, coaching, nutrition, and equipment improvement along with the vastly enlarged world-wide competitive player pool and drop those kids on the ice with those players and it becomes an SNL skit.

To say otherwise means that almost nothing in the past 45 years has advanced in today's athlete. It means that a bunch of cigarette smoking, beer in the locker room part -time insurance salesmen have just as much chance to earn $8M/year in the NHL as does Jack Eichel. It's ludicrous. 

[klos1963]

40 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The biggest change is goaltending.  The size of goalies, their equipment and the butterfly technique and radically changed the game, now add the modern hockey stick.

That said, the construction of the 1975 roster wise is what we are looking for today. 

That team had a gifted speed oriented 1st line (French Connection), with a excellent scoring 2nd line (Gare)  and a 3rd line (Luce Ramsey)  that could score but also could shutdown most opponents.  They also had 11 forwards with 10+ goals and 2 D with 10+

In addition they also had a very talented and big D group by even today’s standards, yet all could play and add to the offense. Schoenfeld, Hajt, Korab and Guevremont all stood over 6-2 and would punish you on both ends of the ice.  

Give those players modern training, coaching and equipment and they would give these guys a run for their money.

The 75 team had 6 players with 30+ goals!!!!  9 with 20+... amazing.

I agree that goaltending is the biggest difference between the eras. The equipment comparison is ridiculous.  Another big change is all defensemen today are mobile, back then they often stayed closer to the net, allowing for more slap shot opportunities from players like Martin, Lafleur....

Schoenfeld and Hajt were offensively challenged. Korab had a great shot but couldn't skate. Hajt would do well in todays game because he was so good defensively. Schoenfeld was overrated back then, can't see him being any good today, he couldn't get away with being out of position so often. Not sure about Korab, he was tough and could shoot. Guevremont could play well today, point on the PP too.

 

 

[LGR4GM]

25 minutes ago, SDS said:

My motivation was to push back on what I consider the extremely silly notion that any of those players from the 70s would be anything other than poorly trained pylons in today's game. People's romanticizing about that era clouds the fact that those players lacked the skill in EVERY aspect (speed, edge-work, backward skating, turns, lateral movement, puck handling, shot accuracy) along with the conditioning and tactical knowledge of the game. Skill wise, I would say kids in high-end programs surpass those players in skill by age 14. By the time they are 17-18, their bodies are big/fast enough that they would run circles around them. The toe drags these kids would pull would make for 30 minute laugh tracks every game.

Since my push back is about people's perception of what they think they remember in the past compared to what they see today - I'm not changing anyone's equipment. I have no idea what Danny Gare would do growing up in the modern system. I assume he would be Nathan Gerbe (assuming he is indeed 5'8" as someone posted earlier) at best. But that's not what I'm getting at. Take the modern game, with 45 years of training, coaching, nutrition, and equipment improvement along with the vastly enlarged world-wide competitive player pool and drop those kids on the ice with those players and it becomes an SNL skit.

To say otherwise means that almost nothing in the past 45 years has advanced in today's athlete. It means that a bunch of cigarette smoking, beer in the locker room part -time insurance salesmen have just as much chance to earn $8M/year in the NHL as does Jack Eichel. It's ludicrous. 

 

[French Collection]

Athletes are constantly getting better, it is why the Olympic and World Records fall. These are records vs a clock, not a scoring championship vs your peers. I don't know at what age/level the modern elite player would surpass the 70's NHLer but I'm guessing last season of junior or mid NCAA career. The modern guys would not be as strong, but would fly by the old timers. It would have to be a modern rules game so that there are no water skiers clutching and grabbing the young uns.

I love my old time hockey and I think Perreault would excel in this era with the training, fitness and equipment. The great ones could play in any era, providing they had equal training and equipment.

In another thread I compared Michael Phelps and Johnny Weismuller. The eras are farther apart than 40 years but it would not be a close race.

[LGR4GM]

We aren't talking equal training. We are talking if you took the college all star team, got in a time machine. Showed up for a 1975 NHL all star game and played, who would win? We will give everyone the same 1975 era sticks to make it fair. 

Just think of the shot blocking and sticks in lanes that happen in today's game.

I am not sure the goalie would have much work with those big slappers being wound up and getting blocked constantly by the defenders. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by LGR4GM

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

We aren't talking equal training. We are talking if you took the college all star team, got in a time machine. Showed up for a 1975 NHL all star game and played, who would win? 

In this situation, which necessarily takes place on a 1975 rink and with 1975 rules, because it's 1975,  I think the NHL all star team beats the living daylights out of every player except for the backup goaltender and goes on to win.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Eleven said:

In this situation, which necessarily takes place on a 1975 rink and with 1975 rules, because it's 1975,  I think the NHL all star team beats the living daylights out of every player except for the backup goaltender and goes on to win.

I don't. I think the college kids beat the piss out of the 1975 all star team. They would be bigger, faster, and stronger. Also they would know the rules had changed, after about 5 minutes... the hits you could level on a guy who can't skate half as well as you, ooof. 

Let's play this game in reverse. You take the 1975 all star team, bring them to 2019, give them all new equipment. Give them 2 weeks to train with it. Then what happens? Seems the only reason anyone can come up with for the 1975 team winning is that they would literally not play hockey but just fight the entire game. 

[French Collection]

The skating would be the decisive factor and the modern guys have speed to burn.

[SDS]

9 minutes ago, Eleven said:

In this situation, which necessarily takes place on a 1975 rink and with 1975 rules, because it's 1975,  I think the NHL all star team beats the living daylights out of every player except for the backup goaltender and goes on to win.

Could you point to any video evidence to back up this claim? It smacks of an old wives tale that grows with each passing year. I watched a lot of the SCF game and there was nothing physically superior about it, unless you consider really slow skaters grabbing slightly less slower players beating the living daylights out of them. 

https://goterriers.com/roster.aspx?roster=2355&path=mhockey

There is the roster for BU. Now, as an engineer, I remember a few physics formulas from back in the day. F=ma is one. Tell me how those kids, who are at least the same size, but skating MUCH faster is going to get the living daylights beat out of them?

[LGR4GM]

Not to mention those kids are lean with high muscle mass. How many of the 1975 guys had the same weight but less muscle, especially in the lower body. 

[SDS]

For reference:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/1975.html

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

Could you point to any video evidence to back up this claim? It smacks of an old wives tale that grows with each passing year. I watched a lot of the SCF game and there was nothing physically superior about it, unless you consider really slow skaters grabbing slightly less slower players beating the living daylights out of them. 

https://goterriers.com/roster.aspx?roster=2355&path=mhockey

There is the roster for BU. Now, as an engineer, I remember a few physics formulas from back in the day. F=ma is one. Tell me how those kids who at least the same size, but skating faster is going to get the living daylights beat out of them?

I can't point to any video evidence *right now*, but I'll bet that the college kids can't fight like those guys from the 70s could.  I think one look at Korab's mustache and they'd skate away crying.  I can think of a certain built-for-speed team that lost 12-6 to the 1976 Sabres, for example, and I will be watching video of that game later.

So, to be clear, I'm not talking about checking.  I'm talking about crosschecks with heavy wooden sticks (and the college kids have only composite with which to retaliate) and straight-up fighting.  And remember, one of the reasons it was so tough to get moving very fast in 1975 is because the puck was frozen all the time.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

For reference:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/1975.html

You won't like this but... if my math was right that BU team is about 185ish lbs on average and that Sabres team was 187... granted... I still think the BU team would be stronger physically.